wearetheborg

As of poll # 62, less than 20% feel smallville is equal to or better than Angel. 70% feel Angel is way way better. And yet the morons at WB cancelled it, and have kept Smallville It doesnt make sense to me. Which geniuses decide what shows to keep and which to ax???
I just watched "Smile Time" so much funnier than the dog episode in smallville.

lwhy?

Angel is way way better. The writing quality of Angel is way way better than Smallville. Smallville has had some of the worst written episodes of any show that I have seen this season. Smallville is one of my favorite shows put the writing is subpar.

chess

Probably the same morons who keep track of ratings and ad revenues, but I could be wrong. Besides, it wasn't season 5 of Angel that killed the show...it was a miserable season 4 and latter part of season 3. I loved season 5, but I'm guessing the decision was made earlier.

To date, Smallville has 3 solid seasons (1 - 3) under its belt and 1 "what the fuck" season. They really seemed to have some repect for the superman legacy up till now, but this bad Lana business is just dumb. Smallville needs to be a long arc focusing on Clark's journey to wearing the suit and Lex's journey to darkness. Lana Lang is a footnote, and bringing Lois Lane into the story is a HUGE mistake. It really seemed like they were building up a story in which Clark likes two girls in high school, forshadowing that in adulthood he would end up with a woman with characteristics of both. Now the person they were forshadowing is just another character on the show. Bottom line on Smallville: It's time to start wrapping it up because they are clearly out of good ideas. We need a bad Lex and we need Clark to take on more of Superman's characteristics and it needs to happen soon.

Similarly, Angel had 3 solid seasons (1, 2, and 5) and 2 "what the fuck" seasons (3 & 4). Those 2 seasons, the ones with the Conner arc and Cordy being written off the show in an entirely unsatisfactory way (and promptly forgotten) killed the show...not the morons at WB. It seemed like the writers for Angel also lost their sense of humor for a season or two there. It was all drama all the time, with some good action here and there, but not nearly enough comic relief. Season 5 was funny again, but it was too late.

Adam Tyner

From what I understand, the decision had nothing to do with that, and certainly nothing to do with specific characters, story arcs, or a lack of comic relief.

The WB had a very large number of series on their last legs, meaning that those shows would have to be replaced with something new. Rather than have a bunch of existing series go off the air at once, the WB was trying to stagger that. Taking Angel off the air meant another series could take its place and potentially get a decent foothold. The lineup a year from then wouldn't be "all old/all new", but staggered with some series going into their second season.

chess

So, you're saying that even had Angel been a ratings success with high ad revenues, it still would have been cancelled?

Rogue588

IIRC, the WB thought they would replace it with Dark Shadows.

Adam Tyner

No, I'm pretty sure I didn't say anything like that at all.

wearetheborg

I think Angel S3 & 4 were much better than anything smallville has put out. The overall story arc in S4 wasnt good, but the individual episodes were decent. I really liked S3 beacuse of the whole westly betrayal thing. The part where westley inadvertently hums to the child in front of Lorn was one of the best TV moments ever. Also when Holtz gets stabbed - that was genius.
Those two seasons WERE dark, very dark.
I also feel Angel is more rewatchable than smallville. I have bought the Angel dvds. Smallville I'm curious with the recent chloe finding out, but I wouldn't want to rewatch an episode.
The morons at WB should have kept Angel. With Spike in the mix it could have done well, VERY well for at least a couple more seasons. I mean how can the spike/angel puppet fight NOT rule????

Was Angel much more costlier to produce than smallville?

chess

You know, it sounds like we actually like a lot of the same things about Angel, except I hated season 4. I actually liked the first half of S3 as well, but after Conner came back, I just hated it. I also would like to have seen them run with an Angel and Spike anchored season or two.

My guess is that the production costs are pretty close between the two shows. Smallville has solid (for TV) visual FX and Angel had very good practical FX.

The point of my post was simply that more people watch Smallville, hence its survival. My guess is that it crosses a lot more demographics than Angel did. Some people watch it just to see the hot cast, others watch for the soap opera aspects, others watch for the Superman lore...you get the idea. Angel was much more of a niche show. Granted it was my niche, but I never had high hopes.

I really liked the humor seasons 1, 2 and 5...and missed it in 3 and 4. The scene with Angel and Wes dancing at that party in season 1 was one of the funniest things I've ever seen on TV.

chess

Just checking...I wasn't sure how else to interpret it.

Then I guess you were disputing my rationale for the REASON viewership was down?

Adam Tyner

I don't consider extrapolating your opinions to the world at large to be much of a rationale. The fact of the matter is that Angel was losing viewers throughout most of its run, and there are numerous possible reasons for that (losing Buffy as a lead-in on the same network, ineffective marketing, increased competition, changing nights, the heavily serialized nature of the show, a backstory overwhelming to new viewers, a lead-in with a vastly different tone, and the list goes on), not just Connor and not just a darker tone. The series didn't just start shedding viewers in its third and fourth seasons. Could the reasons you cited have been contributing factors? Sure. Is there any evidence to suggest that Connor/darkness were the primary reasons viewership dropped? None whatsoever. We can speculate all we want, but it's never going to amount to anything.

Here are some actual numbers, if you're curious. The series does bottom out in season four, but there isn't necessarily any correlation between ratings and quality (would anyone pick "I Fall To Pieces" as the 9th all-time best episode of the series?), and the churn did seem to peter off in season four.

Season Episode # Title Rating % Change  1   1   City Of   4.8      1   2   Lonely Hearts   3.9   18.75%   1   3   In the Dark   3.7   5.13%   1   4   I Fall to Pieces   3.6   2.70%   1   5   Rm w/a Vu   3.2   11.11%   1   6   Sense and Sensitivity   3.7   13.51%   1   7   The Bachelor Party   3.2   13.51%   1   8   I Will Remember You   4.4   27.27%   1   9   Hero   3.5   20.45%   1   10   Parting Gifts   3.6   2.78%   1   11   Somnambulist   3.1   13.89%   1   12   Expecting   4.3   27.91%   1   13   She   3.6   16.28%   1   14   I've Got You Under My Skin   2.9   19.44%   1   15   The Prodigal   3.3   12.12%   1   16   The Ring   3.6   8.33%   1   17   Eternity   3.3   8.33%   1   18   Five By Five   3.3    -    1   19   Sanctuary   3.6   8.33%   1   20   War Zone   3.2   11.11%   1   21   Blind Date   3.7   13.51%   1   22   To Shanshu In LA   3.2   13.51%   2   1   Judgement   3.9   17.95%   2   2   Are You Now Or Have You Ever Been...   3.1   20.51%   2   3   First Impressions   3.2   3.13%   2   4   Untouched   3.4   5.88%   2   5   Dear Boy   3.6   5.56%   2   6   Guise Will Be Guise   3.6    -    2   7   Darla   3.5   2.78%   2   8   The Shroud of Rahmon   3.0   14.29%   2   9   The Trial   3.2   6.25%   2   10   Reunion   3.0   6.25%   2   11   Redefinition   2.7   10.00%   2   12   Blood Money   3.0   10.00%   2   13   Happy Anniversary   2.9   3.33%   2   14   The Thin Dead Line   3.0   3.33%   2   15   Reprise   3.1   3.23%   2   16   Epiphany   3.4   8.82%   2   17   Disharmony   2.5   26.47%   2   18   Dead End   2.8   10.71%   2   19   Belonging   3.0   6.67%   2   20   Over The Rainbow   3.2   6.25%   2   21   Through The Looking Glass   3.3   3.03%   2   22   There's No Place Like Plrtz Glrb   3.2   3.03%   3   1   Heartthrob   3.2    -    3   2   That Vision Thing   3.0   6.25%   3   3   That Old Gang Of Mine   2.9   3.33%   3   4   Carpe Noctem   3.2   9.38%   3   5   Fredless   3.0   6.25%   3   6   Billy   2.6   13.33%   3   7   Offspring   3.0   13.33%   3   8   Quickening   3.2   6.25%   3   9   Lullaby   3.1   3.13%   3   10   Dad   2.5   19.35%   3   11   Birthday   2.5    -    3   12   Provider   2.5    -    3   13   Waiting In The Wings   2.8   10.71%   3   14   Couplet   2.6   7.14%   3   15   Loyalty   2.5   3.85%   3   16   Sleep Tight   2.7   7.41%   3   17   Forgiving   2.6   3.70%   3   18   Double Or Nothing   2.7   3.70%   3   19   The Price   2.7    -    3   20   A New World   3.1   12.90%   3   21   Benediction   2.9   6.45%   3   22   Tomorrow   2.7   6.90%   4   1   Deep Down   2.8   3.57%   4   2   Ground State   2.5   10.71%   4   3   The House Always Wins   2.8   10.71%   4   4   Slouching Towards Bethlehem   2.6   7.14%   4   5   Supersymmetry   2.2   15.38%   4   6   Spin The Bottle   2.4   8.33%   4   7   Apocalypse, Nowish   2.6   7.69%   4   8   Habeas Corpses   2.6    -    4   9   Long Day's Journey   2.3   11.54%   4   10   Awakening   2.2   4.35%   4   11   Soulless   2.4   8.33%   4   12   Calvary   2.3   4.17%   4   13   Salvage   2.3    -    4   14   Release   2.4   4.17%   4   15   Orpheus   2.4    -    4   16   Players   2.2   8.33%   4   17   Inside Out   2.3   4.35%   4   18   Shiny Happy People   2.6   11.54%   4   19   The Magic Bullet   2.6    -    4   20   Sacrifice   2.5   3.85%   4   21   Peace Out   2.6   3.85%   4   22   Home   2.6    -    5   1   Conviction   3.4   23.53%   5   2   Just Rewards   3.6   5.56%   5   3   Unleashed   3.1   13.89%   5   4   Hell Bound   3.1    -    5   5   Life Of The Party   3.0   3.23%   5   6   The Cautionary Tale Of Numero Cinco   2.8   6.67%   5   7   Lineage   3.1   9.68%   5   8   Destiny   2.7   12.90%   5   9   Harm's Way   2.5   7.41%   5   10   Soul Purpose   2.3   8.00%   5   11   Damage   3.0   23.33%   5   12   You're Welcome   2.7   10.00%   5   13   Why We Fight   2.4   11.11%   5   14   Smile Time   2.8   14.29%   5   15   A Hole In The World   2.6   7.14%   5   16   Shells   2.5   3.85%   5   17   Underneath   2.2   12.00%   5   18   Origin   2.5   12.00%   5   19   Time Bomb   2.7   7.41%   5   20   The Girl In Question   2.8   3.57%   5   21   Power Play   2.7   3.57%   5   22   Not Fade Away   3.3   18.18%

Delta Episodes Decrease 51 Increase 46 Unchanged 12

Season Episode # Title Rating  1   1   City Of   4.8   1   8   I Will Remember You   4.4   1   12   Expecting   4.3   1   2   Lonely Hearts   3.9   2   1   Judgement   3.9   1   3   In the Dark   3.7   1   6   Sense and Sensitivity   3.7   1   21   Blind Date   3.7   1   4   I Fall to Pieces   3.6   1   10   Parting Gifts   3.6   1   13   She   3.6   1   16   The Ring   3.6   1   19   Sanctuary   3.6   2   5   Dear Boy   3.6   2   6   Guise Will Be Guise   3.6   5   2   Just Rewards   3.6   1   9   Hero   3.5   2   7   Darla   3.5   2   4   Untouched   3.4   2   16   Epiphany   3.4   5   1   Conviction   3.4   1   15   The Prodigal   3.3   1   17   Eternity   3.3   1   18   Five By Five   3.3   2   21   Through The Looking Glass   3.3   5   22   Not Fade Away   3.3   1   5   Rm w/a Vu   3.2   1   7   The Bachelor Party   3.2   1   20   War Zone   3.2   1   22   To Shanshu In LA   3.2   2   3   First Impressions   3.2   2   9   The Trial   3.2   2   20   Over The Rainbow   3.2   2   22   There's No Place Like Plrtz Glrb   3.2   3   1   Heartthrob   3.2   3   4   Carpe Noctem   3.2   3   8   Quickening   3.2   1   11   Somnambulist   3.1   2   2   Are You Now Or Have You Ever Been...   3.1   2   15   Reprise   3.1   3   9   Lullaby   3.1   3   20   A New World   3.1   5   3   Unleashed   3.1   5   4   Hell Bound   3.1   5   7   Lineage   3.1   2   8   The Shroud of Rahmon   3.0   2   10   Reunion   3.0   2   12   Blood Money   3.0   2   14   The Thin Dead Line   3.0   2   19   Belonging   3.0   3   2   That Vision Thing   3.0   3   5   Fredless   3.0   3   7   Offspring   3.0   5   5   Life Of The Party   3.0   5   11   Damage   3.0   1   14   I've Got You Under My Skin   2.9   2   13   Happy Anniversary   2.9   3   3   That Old Gang Of Mine   2.9   3   21   Benediction   2.9   2   18   Dead End   2.8   3   13   Waiting In The Wings   2.8   4   1   Deep Down   2.8   4   3   The House Always Wins   2.8   5   6   The Cautionary Tale Of Numero Cinco   2.8   5   14   Smile Time   2.8   5   20   The Girl In Question   2.8   2   11   Redefinition   2.7   3   16   Sleep Tight   2.7   3   18   Double Or Nothing   2.7   3   19   The Price   2.7   3   22   Tomorrow   2.7   5   8   Destiny   2.7   5   12   You're Welcome   2.7   5   19   Time Bomb   2.7   5   21   Power Play   2.7   3   6   Billy   2.6   3   14   Couplet   2.6   3   17   Forgiving   2.6   4   4   Slouching Towards Bethlehem   2.6   4   7   Apocalypse, Nowish   2.6   4   8   Habeas Corpses   2.6   4   18   Shiny Happy People   2.6   4   19   The Magic Bullet   2.6   4   21   Peace Out   2.6   4   22   Home   2.6   5   15   A Hole In The World   2.6   2   17   Disharmony   2.5   3   10   Dad   2.5   3   11   Birthday   2.5   3   12   Provider   2.5   3   15   Loyalty   2.5   4   2   Ground State   2.5   4   20   Sacrifice   2.5   5   9   Harm's Way   2.5   5   16   Shells   2.5   5   18   Origin   2.5   4   6   Spin The Bottle   2.4   4   11   Soulless   2.4   4   14   Release   2.4   4   15   Orpheus   2.4   5   13   Why We Fight   2.4   4   9   Long Day's Journey   2.3   4   12   Calvary   2.3   4   13   Salvage   2.3   4   17   Inside Out   2.3   5   10   Soul Purpose   2.3   4   5   Supersymmetry   2.2   4   10   Awakening   2.2   4   16   Players   2.2   5   17   Underneath   2.2

Season   Premiere   Finale   Peak   Valley   Avg. Rating   Median Rating  1  4.8  3.2  4.8  2.9  3.6  3.6  2  3.9  3.2  3.9  2.5  3.2  3.2  3  3.2  2.7  3.2  2.5  2.8  2.8  4  2.8  2.6  2.8  2.2  2.5  2.5  5  3.4  3.3  3.6  2.2  2.8  2.8

Josh-da-man

While we're debating why the WB Network decided to shitcan Angel and not Smallville, I would also speculate that The WB would tend to favor Smallville over Angel because it's an in-house production. Smallville is based on Superman, which is in turn a DC Comics, which is under the corporate WB umbrella.

As was the aborted Dark Shadows revival.

Given the choice between a Fox-owned vampire series, and a Warners-owned vampire series, I could certainly see them going with the latter. (Not that I'm happy about the decision...)

wearetheborg

Didnt know that. BTW if Angel is fox owned, why was WB showing it instead of Fox???
Anyone have ratings for smallville? Is there a ratings site? I would be interesting to see how they compare.

Adam Tyner

This isn't uncommon at all.

chess

Fair enough. I didn't mean to sound flippant. I sincerely wasn't sure what you were disagreeing with.

I also appreciate the numbers, though one could form any number of arguments based on those numbers. For instance, I could point out that the ratings went down almost 20% for the episode "Dad" and only got above a 3.0 one time (none in all of season 4) until Conner left...then the nearly Connor-free season 5 started with 20%+ jump and a 3.x share in 6 of its first 7 episodes.

I understand that correlation is not necessarily causation, but you have to admit that it is an interesting coincidence. I'm not saying that Conner was universally annoying, but he sure annoyed the hell out of me...and I'll bet at least a few people would agree.

I maintain that the story and the tone of Angel went down the wrong path in the latter part of season 3 and all of season 4, but I recognize that it is just my opinion. I also agree with you that the series had the deck seriously stacked against it in terms of timeslot, lead in, ad time, etc. It's sad, really.

Adam Tyner

I agree completely.

Well, "Dad" was bad enough for me to want to give up on the series entirely too. I think the ratings leap in season five had more to do with the WB really giving the series a big promotional push, the fact that it was getting a lot of press at the time, and the addition of James Marsters to the cast. (I don't think it's a coincidence that the only time the season premiere wasn't the highest rated episode of the year was the first full episode with Spike.)

I've read enough message board posts to know a lot of people feel that way, and I don't entirely disagree. (I actually thought baby-Connor was more unbearable than angsty-teen-Connor, though.) While I can certainly imagine a lot of people being annoyed by Connor, I wouldn't think that he alone would be enough for viewership to start to plummet. I guess my mindset is that while a good number of the people who abandoned the show may have disliked Connor (I have no idea), they were probably dissatisfied with a lot of other things about it as well. I have a hard time seeing Connor -- or any single plot element from the third or fourth season -- as being the reason viewers stayed away.

I think we have polar opposite opinions about the best and worst of the show. I can see why what I liked most about Angel wouldn't be very viewer-friendly, though -- I don't think there's a huge market for dark, heavily serialized action-fantasy-drama on network television, and it's definitely not inviting if you haven't been watching from nearly the beginning.

UltimateHigh

Season 3 of angel is quite good, IMO. We some major development in the Wesley. Probably one of the most drastic chararater changes in recent tv history, which i happened to enjoy. It did lack some humor and conner can grate the nerves but i think it held more motional weight then season 1 or 2. We see the beloved wesley getting shunned by everyone who was once his best friends.

He takes a giant step from bumbling watcher who seemed to have trouble talkign to women into this ultimate bad ass who no longer takes any shit and could bed any female he came across. I dont see season 3 as the wrong path but a entirely different dynmanic for the show. It turned away from demons and dealt with some very human issues that any of us could go through. The arc of angel becoming a father, wes's "betrayal" , conners return and how angel tried everything to get him back in his life, fred choosing gunn and wes left with nothing, holtz death and conners bitch ass betraying angel and sending him into the ocean. it also had one of the most intense moment in the buffyverse run.

When angel chokes wes.In my personal opinon the best buffyverse episodes are the ones that dive into painful issues and just deal with lifes drama. Dont get me wrong, i love the humor that are in those these 2 shows and love many episodes that have 90% comedy in the them. Season 4 on the other hand had 2 terrible angles. conner and cordelia and that fucking jasmine. ehh. Those things made the season the worst but far from bad.

I found the scenes with the beast to be quite well down and entertaining. That was a great baddie who was damn near unstoppable and just bad ass and it also spawned probably some oh most enjoyable action and devestation the show had to offer. People without heads, wes with his shotgun, zombies, and just about every scene with the beast was cool. I loved the return of angelus and faith. So evil and sadistic. Faith was so weclome. it also contains one of the best comedic episodes whedon has to offer in "spin the bottle". That was also the fall down the hill after that. save for angelus and faith and fred being the only one to see the real jasmine and how she dealt with that therefor adding the final piece of development she needed.

The season became lame and the whole conner, cordelia and jasmine fiasco turned me off completely, although some great scenes were still sprinked in. Conner is entirely unlikable and their pairing really baffled me in how rediculous it all was. jasmine was just annoying and wanted to punch her every word she uttered. The only saving grace for prior said fiasco is the last episode. A fitting end for a shitty story arc. Conners whiny ass gone made it all the better. Thank god season 5 stepped up and delivered a noteworthy season overall. Damn, that was a long write and as you can tell, i love buffy and angel to the point of obsession. Hope i didnt ramble to much and become too incoherent to make this an unworthy read. oh yeah and to on topic.

ANGEL, any season>>>>>smallville. I watched the first 3 seasons and save for a few episodes was bored to tear. Just really bland characters outside of lex and lionel.

candyrocket786

This season has been GOD-FUCKIN' AWFUL!!!! (there... I said it )

The show is in serious need of a Reboot, Restart or Reshuffle or whatever the hell they call it nowadays.

Don't get me wrong...the season started out great with Clark "flying" and the "Flash" episode, but I'm really tired of all this "Countess" bullshit!!!

...and I'm still pissed that the writers killed off Alicia Baker (Sarah Carter).

n0fear88

Angel 4 sure !!!