I've just fininshed catching up on The Wire via DVR. I've also caught up on the forum posts regarding the same.

There have been mentions of HBO not renuing the show based on ratings.Even quotes form the creatores mentioning going up against Desperate Housewives. This bit of news surprises and upsets me.

I pay money to HBO because of their original progaming. The fact that I can depend on a show not being canceled during the season and even being renewed as long as it has creative merit has also been a factor.

If they start making their decisions based on competition with free commercial tv, (perhaps they always have?) all is lost, as well as I as a customer.

Every time I hear someone mention HBO and ratings in the same breath I get bothered. Their allegiance must be to the paying customer not he bogus Nielsen system that is as flawed as it is inaccurate.

Perhaps someone here can open my eyes as to why ratings are important to HBO.

They get many subscribers due to their original programming. If the original programming isn't being watched by viewers who only watch for the original programming, those viewers are likely to drop HBO.

Ratings reflect viewership. Obviously, they want shows that draw more viewers because more viewers = more subscriptions = more revenue.

For me it raises questions of how the ratings get determined. I imagine they base them upon the first run of a new episode. Yet, most of HBO's Original Series' will repeat that "new" episode 3 or 4 times that week. Some viewers may bank on the fact they can catch it another night of the week whereas the new Desperate Housewives episode is only on that Sunday. I also wonder how DVRs are factoring into it.

I'm sure HBO likes to have good ratings because it does generate the buzz and perception that "hey our shows are good and they are being watched. you should too". Maybe some Neilson people can chime in on how the ratings are determined?

Here's another question. If every current HBO sub watched a particular show. What would the rating be.

The fact that every person that has a television and electricity can watch Desperate Housewives, and HBO viewers must make an effort (subscribe to cable or satellite pay extra for HBO) to watch The Wire. Why be expected to compete in any meaningfully way with DH.

Or are they comparing The Wire ratings to the good but not as good Sopranos?

if you're viewing it, you're already a subscriber

These recent comments about HBO's programming department getting more "hands-on" and ratings-oriented probably means *THE END* to the golden age of HBO dramas.

Maybe they didn't notice, but it was the fact the show's creators could do what they damn well pleased that made their shows great. Sigh.

Here's hoping some other channel is "dumb enough" to actually allow some creativity now that HBO is getting set to ruin what made their great shows possible.

Why pay for it (costs of production) if no one is watching it? You'll just get a first run movie instead and enjoy watching it 50 times that month.

That's just the thing. It dosent matter if anyone watches. As long as they subscribe. I'm sure I watch less than 7 hours a month max of HBO The weekly drama series when new.Bryant Gumbel sports show. Some weeks the NFL Show.

HBO have set a standard whereas their shows exceed all others in quality. They drew us in with that quality. Now they worry about popularity. Quality almost never gets picked up on by the masses. Every now and then good gets accepted The West Wing, NYPD Blue.

These professional TV people must understand where they stand in the grand scheme of TV.

Well, obviously. Critical praise/positive word of mouth/etc. also boosts subscriptions. How many people subscribed to HBO after the onslaught of praise surrounding The Sopranos, for instance? Successful programming also helps retain viewers. They might not want to watch Drumline for the eighth time this week, but they wouldn't want to go without their Sex in the City fix. That kinda thing.

But if you're not watching it as a subscriber, aren't you more likely to consider cancelling your subscription? I think that is what HBO would be worried about. If you have HBO and aren't impressed by The Wire, you might be more likely to decide to stop your service, either permanently or at least until some show you like starts airing. Makes perfect sense to me. Don't know what the confusion is. HBO has allowed more creativity and freedom, but they also need strong shows (not that I am saying The Wire isn't strong, I personally love it) that people will want to watch to keep their subscriptions up.

Exactly. Many people cancel HBO outside of when Sopranos or SATC is on.

I'm in that category. Only time I subscribe to HBO is when Sopranos or Deadwood are on.

I can't get rid of it. Comcast keeps giving me 6 or 12 months of HBO free every 6 or 12 months I threaten to go to satellite.

I think people canceling subs is totally different than if they watch Desperate Housewives over The Wire or Carnivale.

HBO has a true barometer. (Much better that that joke Nielson) they know exactly how many subs they have had and who cancels when. So if they say, “we have many cancellations during the run of The Wire and then people sign back up at the start of another series.” I suppose I could accept the cancellation decision more easily. I have yet to hear this. Nor will I. I didn't cancel during the dreadful last two years of Sex & The City. But that’s just me.

My problem is not about the true sub of HBO, but the fictitious Nielson ratings that may be deciding the fate of our great HBO shows. And the paying customers having no say in the matter.

If you don't like anything on HBO, are you going to keep paying for it? Probably not. If HBO has shows you want to watch, you will keep paying to get it. So HBO does have to watch the ratings and keep shows that people want to watch and keep paying for.

HBO's motto used to be that the critical acclaim, Awards, and word of mouth that a show garnered meant far more to them than ratings. Because all of those things reach non-subscribers and act as an advertisement for HBO. Where as subscriber ratings are akin to preaching to the Choir.

It's not as if they haven't given The Wire a chance. I'm sure they also take all the variables into account when regarding the ratings, that they show each episode several times a week and their subscriber base is only a fraction of Neilsen households.

I agree that it would be a bad decision to cancel The Wire, but they do have to consider the bottom line. The Wire has never gotten the buzz that most of their shows have gotten. If you go by this forum, Deadwood and Carnivale just started last year and they both appear to be more popular than The Wire.

Deadwood & Carnivale have the luxury of not having competition that is anything like them. The Wire has to compete with a plethora of other crime/law-enforcement shows. How many Law & Orders and CSIs are there now? I'm not arguing that they are the same caliber as The Wire. But HBO costs extra and the saturation of that market could have an effect on The Wire.

Not only that, there are probably hundreds of thousands of viewers that aren't subscribers that stay in hotels that show HBO and if a series is popular there is a buzz about it and perhaps they can lure subscribers that way.