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American Dreams 10/24/04

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American Dreams 10/24/04

Old 10-25-04, 09:30 AM
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American Dreams 10/24/04

Meg is admonished for her updated slant on Henry V, but decides to go through with her vision. The principal/priest was not pleased. Jack was not pleased either with Meg.

Donald gets fired, the boss just wasn't tolerant of his lifestyle. Donald promises Patty to tell her all about it when she's in college, but not until then.

Jack's political base is already on him to get things done. They appeared to force his hand by showing up in large numbers at the council meeting. Pete and Henry share some sharp words.

JJ goes looking for Hang, the bartender he suspects of blowing up the bar, and killing Ahn. JJ finds Ahn's father, and tries to make things right. The army captures Hang and interrogates him, and JJ goes a little nutso on him. JJ's old commanding officer shows up to command him in the special ops mission.

Shaggy Luke shows up, and Rox thinks they can pick up from where they left off, but Luke is involved with someone else on the west coast.

Sam tells Meg that they can't hang out as much (due to Melanie getting all jealous on him), but Sam doesn't tell her why, so she's confused.

JJ records a farewell message for his family before he sets off on his mission in Cambodia.
Old 10-25-04, 09:36 AM
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This show just continues to kick ass. There's not one storyline going on right now that I'm bored with.

Can't wait until next week...
Old 10-25-04, 09:39 AM
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The politics of the office, school, and city council were all very well done. Good to see the return of JJ's C.O.
Old 10-25-04, 09:48 AM
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I wondered how the boss knew Donald was gay. Donald did a pretty good job of covering it, and back then most people would probably assume people were straight since homosexuality was rarely talked about or acknowledged. I thought Helen did a good job of covering why he was arguing with his roommate, with the security deposit story.

Speaking of gay characters, I always remember the gravelly-voiced actor who plays JJ's CO as one of Doug Savant's gay lovers on Melrose Place. He even played a closeted military dude!

No Cal this week
Too much Milo/Jess
Lots of Meg/Sam

Luke with a beard
Patty's future as a beard: likely

I am not liking Jack again. I hated his character at first, but then softened on him, but he is being jerky again. He should have at least brought up his constituents concerns at the city council meeting, and I hated how he treated Meg.

Last edited by Jadzia; 10-25-04 at 09:55 AM.
Old 10-25-04, 09:50 AM
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Originally posted by Jadzia
I hated how he treated Meg.
I think that's how any WW2 Vet who has a son in Vietnam would react.
Old 10-25-04, 09:55 AM
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Originally posted by Jadzia
I wondered how the boss knew Donald was gay. Donald did a pretty good job of covering it, and back then most people would probably assume people were straight since homosexuality was rarely talked about or acknowledged. I thought Helen did a good job of covering why he was arguing with his roommate, with the security deposit story.

Speaking of gay characters, I always remember the gravelly-voiced actor who plays JJ's CO as one of Doug Savant's gay lovers on Melrose Place. He even played a closeted military dude!

No Cal this week
Too much Milo/Jess
Lots of Meg/Sam

I am not liking Jack again. I hated his character at first, but then softened on him, but he is being jerky again. He should have at least brought up his constituents concerns at the city council meeting, and I hated how he treated Meg.

Maybe 30-something guy roommates were not all that prevalent back in 1965. Plus I doubt you would see such roommates have an argument at one's place of business.

I found Jack's problems to be quite realistic. Typical of any politician - making promises that are hard to keep. Plus being the new guy on the council doesn't make things easy.


Originally posted by TruGator
I think that's how any WW2 Vet who has a son in Vietnam would react.
Exactly. 100% realistic.
Old 10-25-04, 10:09 AM
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Originally posted by TruGator
I think that's how any WW2 Vet who has a son in Vietnam would react.
Well, my dad was in WWII and he thought the Vietnam war was a waste (as is the current one).

I just have never understood the whole "if you're against the war, you're not supporting the troops" thing. It makes no sense to me. if you are against the war, it is precisely because you don't want to see our troops put into harm's way and killed. I mean, why would Jack WANT his son to be halfway around the world getting shot at? Meg's position shows a lot more concern for her brother IMO.
Old 10-25-04, 10:16 AM
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Originally posted by Jadzia
Well, my dad was in WWII and he thought the Vietnam war was a waste (as is the current one).

I just have never understood the whole "if you're against the war, you're not supporting the troops" thing. It makes no sense to me. if you are against the war, it is precisely because you don't want to see our troops put into harm's way and killed. I mean, why would Jack WANT his son to be halfway around the world getting shot at? Meg's position shows a lot more concern for her brother IMO.

Did you have a brother in Vietnam though?

Even if you did and he still had that reaction, I think your dad would have been the exception to the rule. I don't understand the mentality either but I recognize that was the mentality of that generation. Of course Meg's position shows more concern - you have the benefit of hindsight to know what a disaster that war would turn out to be. Jack doesn't have that. If this show continues on for several years, you know that Jack will become more moderate in his stance on Vietnam (particularly if something bad happens to JJ) and societal issues. He already seems to be there on race even though he is now stuck btwn a rock and hard place.
Old 10-25-04, 10:42 AM
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Originally posted by Jadzia
Well, my dad was in WWII and he thought the Vietnam war was a waste (as is the current one).
How old was your father when you were born?
Old 10-25-04, 11:34 AM
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Originally posted by B.A.
How old was your father when you were born?
He was 45, my mom was 40 when I was born. He is 79 years old now. My parents are old.

I even had a grandfather (on my mom's side) who was in World War I. My other grandfather died at age 20 in 1924 before my dad was born. I never knew either of my grandfathers (the WWI vet died in 1968).

No brothers, so no one in Vietnam. I'm not sure if my dad is typical or not, but he always seemed to resent the government for sending him to war right out of high school. (He graduated in 1943.)
Old 10-25-04, 01:27 PM
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Originally posted by Jadzia
I just have never understood the whole "if you're against the war, you're not supporting the troops" thing. It makes no sense to me. if you are against the war, it is precisely because you don't want to see our troops put into harm's way and killed.
That may be the attitude now but during Vietnam the anti-war movement reviled the troops as much as the war itself. Returning soldiers were spat upon and called vile things like "murderer" and "baby killer". They certainly wanted to stop the war, but not over concern for US troops. Don't confuse attitudes today for what they were back then. The war was very devisive and attitudes were very different.
I mean, why would Jack WANT his son to be halfway around the world getting shot at? Meg's position shows a lot more concern for her brother IMO.
Jack doesn't WANT that for JJ, nor would any father. Jack is proud of JJ for "doing the right thing" and obviously both he and JJ believe that serving his country IS the right thing.
Old 10-25-04, 02:07 PM
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Originally posted by Easy
That may be the attitude now but during Vietnam the anti-war movement reviled the troops as much as the war itself. Returning soldiers were spat upon and called vile things like "murderer" and "baby killer". They certainly wanted to stop the war, but not over concern for US troops. Don't confuse attitudes today for what they were back then. The war was very devisive and attitudes were very different.
But wasn't that later on in the 1960's? I thought they were still pretty early on in this series, as far as the war is concerned. I didn't think the anti-war movement had really taken off yet, so I thought Meg was being sort of trailblazing in this whole thing (defintely before the whole soldiers coming home and being spat on phase.)
Old 10-25-04, 02:12 PM
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Originally posted by Jadzia
I thought Meg was being sort of trailblazing in this whole thing

Absolutely. She is a trail-blazer which contrasts starkly with the popular sentiment at the time of the WWII generation, which Jack represents.
Old 10-25-04, 02:40 PM
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Originally posted by Red Dog
Absolutely. She is a trail-blazer which contrasts starkly with the popular sentiment at the time of the WWII generation, which Jack represents.
Exactly.
Old 10-25-04, 07:19 PM
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Originally posted by Jadzia
Well, my dad was in WWII and he thought the Vietnam war was a waste (as is the current one).
Same with my Grandfather. He served in Europe during WWII, and never liked to talk about it, even though I tried to pump him for information when I was younger. He died about twenty years ago, but I'm 100% positive he would've opposed today's current Iraq invasion/occupation.

He didn't have any male children, but he did have two nephews in Vietnam he was very fond of. If it had any effect on his opinion on the Vietnam War, it probably just pushed him even further against it.

Then again, he wasn't one of the loud-mouthed drunken armchair generals at the VFW.


I just have never understood the whole "if you're against the war, you're not supporting the troops" thing. It makes no sense to me. if you are against the war, it is precisely because you don't want to see our troops put into harm's way and killed. I mean, why would Jack WANT his son to be halfway around the world getting shot at? Meg's position shows a lot more concern for her brother IMO.
You're applying logic to patriotism. Big mistake.

The whole "against the war=against the troops" thing is a bullshit argument, designed to appeal to emotion rather than reason. The fear is that, if enough people start questioning why the government is sending their sons and brothers off to die in some foreign country, that public opinion will turn against the war.
Old 10-25-04, 07:28 PM
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Originally posted by Jadzia

Patty's future as a beard: likely

I am not liking Jack again. I hated his character at first, but then softened on him, but he is being jerky again. He should have at least brought up his constituents concerns at the city council meeting, and I hated how he treated Meg.
Jack's a prick, but I can see redeeming himself in the end.

When (If?) J.J. gets back from the war and finds out Meg was protesting it, he'll probably tell her "Good," and that will be a epiphany for Jack.

I sort of have Patty pegged as a future Lesbian, or hairy-legged feminist at the very least.

The Pryors are heading for a big melt-down. Patty's probably a lesbian, Meg's going to be a crazy hippie chick, and J.J.'s going to come back from the 'nam a burnout. I'm still waiting for Helen to have an affair -- hopefully with Henry.

Father Cassidy -- the principal or whatever -- is a total prick, isn't he? When he first appeared, I figured he was going to be getting fresh with girls, but they took him a totally different direction of assholery.
Old 10-25-04, 07:32 PM
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Originally posted by Jadzia
But wasn't that later on in the 1960's? I thought they were still pretty early on in this series, as far as the war is concerned. I didn't think the anti-war movement had really taken off yet, so I thought Meg was being sort of trailblazing in this whole thing (defintely before the whole soldiers coming home and being spat on phase.)
Yes, the anti-war movement gained strength with every passing year but I doubt this show is that concerned about the timeline. I have seen people complaining that songs are in the wrong year but I'm not that critical. IMO they get the "flavor" and attitudes of those years just about right. As Red Dog says you will see Jack's attitudes change just as the general public did (if the series lasts that long).
Yes, Meg is a certainly a trailblazer in both her attitudes toward race and the war. A big part of the reason I like this series are Jack and Meg. Jacks reluctant changes of accepted values and Meg's "Why does it have to be this way, it's stupid and unfair" attitude are both nicely played. I'm not saying anything against the other actors, I like them all but for me these two are key. Anyone else noticed that the Pryor men are conservative while the women are liberal?
Old 10-25-04, 09:01 PM
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Originally posted by Easy
Yes, the anti-war movement gained strength with every passing year but I doubt this show is that concerned about the timeline. I have seen people complaining that songs are in the wrong year but I'm not that critical. IMO they get the "flavor" and attitudes of those years just about right. As Red Dog says you will see Jack's attitudes change just as the general public did (if the series lasts that long).
Yes, Meg is a certainly a trailblazer in both her attitudes toward race and the war. A big part of the reason I like this series are Jack and Meg. Jacks reluctant changes of accepted values and Meg's "Why does it have to be this way, it's stupid and unfair" attitude are both nicely played. I'm not saying anything against the other actors, I like them all but for me these two are key. Anyone else noticed that the Pryor men are conservative while the women are liberal?
Yeah, something they have dropped is Helen's budding feminism. I really liked the way they showed her awakening to different possibilities in the first season or so. But now they don't really give her much to do other than react to stuff around her. I thought they could have done more with the gay co-worker storyline, other than just show Helen uncomfortable about it.

I would have thought Helen would be burning her bra about now.
Old 10-25-04, 10:23 PM
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I'd do PPV for that!
Old 10-26-04, 08:58 AM
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Also, if you are going to rip Jack, you have to rip Henry as well. Henry is conservative in his ways: telling Sam to basically mind his place in the world around him and take advantage of every opportunity THE MAN (essentially) is giving him.

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