TIVO in trouble?
04-29-04 | 01:25 AM
#51
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Originally posted by joltaddict
Only for sunday and tuesday.
The dual is fine for the rest of the week.
Only for sunday and tuesday.
The dual is fine for the rest of the week.
That usually covers it, although there has been once or twice when a fourth would have been nice. Actually, I do have a fourth ReplayTV but it is an older 3xxx/Showstopper that isn't networkable and, thus, isn't as convenient to use.
04-29-04 | 09:06 AM
#52
DVD Talk Ultimate Edition
I have one DTIVO right now and in a few months I am going to add a 2nd one. that will give me 4 different tuners. between those and a cable feed that should keep me covered for any show on local network tv.
04-29-04 | 09:14 AM
#53
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From: Directionally Challenged (for DirecTV)
Originally posted by JM
It is this kind of thinking that makes ReplayTVs and Tivos a hard sell to the average person. There is MUCH more to a ReplayTV than a 40GB hard drive. Let's start with the hardware. Keep in mind that the current *retail* price of a ReplayTV 5540 or 5040 is $150 (not $300), which does not include activation ($299 lifetime OR $12.95/month). If you look, they can even be had for less than that--around $115. A ReplayTV includes the following components (among others):
1) A quality hardware MPEG-2 encoder AND decoder. By way of comparison, the Hauppage WinTV-PVR-350 Hardware MPEG encoder/decoder PCI card for a PC retails for $199 ALONE, and from what I've heard it produces worse video quality than a ReplayTV/Tivo.
2) An NTSC tuner
3) The aforementioned hard drive
4) Various video output chips for composite, s-video, and progressive component output
5) Digital Output Audio (TOSLink)
6) USB port (currently non-functional)
7) Ethernet
8) Modem
9) CPU and RAM
10) Power supply
11) Motherboard with various other chips
12) Standard A/V component-size case
Then you have the ReplayTV software itself. This is sophisticated software that took many man-hours and $$$ to develop and to continue to develop.
There are also many miscellaneous costs.
1) Licensing fees from vxWorks (the OS ReplayTV uses), MPEG LA (for MPEG-2 use), etc.
2) The ReplayTV employees that develop the software, put together the Zones content, do tech support, etc. All these people like to be paid.
3) The cost of maintaining dial-up access for older models and those without broadband access for newer models.
As you can see, there is a lot more involved than one might initially think.
The $13/mo. or $299 lifetime isn't for programming. It is an activation fee. Basically, ReplayTV sells the units for a loss at $150, and the activation fee is what allows them to make a profit. Also, ReplayTV never offered this for free as you say. Initially, it was just bundled into the purchase price. For example a 30GB ReplayTV 3xxx model retailed for $599. This turned out to be a horrible idea because it made ReplayTVs *appear* to be twice as much as a comparable Tivo, which had split the activation fee from the base price from the very beginning. This greatly contributed to Tivo getting the dominant market share even though ReplayTV actually invented the DVR first...
It is this kind of thinking that makes ReplayTVs and Tivos a hard sell to the average person. There is MUCH more to a ReplayTV than a 40GB hard drive. Let's start with the hardware. Keep in mind that the current *retail* price of a ReplayTV 5540 or 5040 is $150 (not $300), which does not include activation ($299 lifetime OR $12.95/month). If you look, they can even be had for less than that--around $115. A ReplayTV includes the following components (among others):
1) A quality hardware MPEG-2 encoder AND decoder. By way of comparison, the Hauppage WinTV-PVR-350 Hardware MPEG encoder/decoder PCI card for a PC retails for $199 ALONE, and from what I've heard it produces worse video quality than a ReplayTV/Tivo.
2) An NTSC tuner
3) The aforementioned hard drive
4) Various video output chips for composite, s-video, and progressive component output
5) Digital Output Audio (TOSLink)
6) USB port (currently non-functional)
7) Ethernet
8) Modem
9) CPU and RAM
10) Power supply
11) Motherboard with various other chips
12) Standard A/V component-size case
Then you have the ReplayTV software itself. This is sophisticated software that took many man-hours and $$$ to develop and to continue to develop.
There are also many miscellaneous costs.
1) Licensing fees from vxWorks (the OS ReplayTV uses), MPEG LA (for MPEG-2 use), etc.
2) The ReplayTV employees that develop the software, put together the Zones content, do tech support, etc. All these people like to be paid.
3) The cost of maintaining dial-up access for older models and those without broadband access for newer models.
As you can see, there is a lot more involved than one might initially think.
The $13/mo. or $299 lifetime isn't for programming. It is an activation fee. Basically, ReplayTV sells the units for a loss at $150, and the activation fee is what allows them to make a profit. Also, ReplayTV never offered this for free as you say. Initially, it was just bundled into the purchase price. For example a 30GB ReplayTV 3xxx model retailed for $599. This turned out to be a horrible idea because it made ReplayTVs *appear* to be twice as much as a comparable Tivo, which had split the activation fee from the base price from the very beginning. This greatly contributed to Tivo getting the dominant market share even though ReplayTV actually invented the DVR first...
All true, but keep in mind that there is a difference btwn the hard core TV viewer, like myself, and your more casual viewer. A casual viewer is probably only addicted to 4-5 shows per week so they don't need much more than a computerized VCR, which is what the cable DVR is.
The question is can TIVO and Replay survive catering mostly to the videophile CATV user. Are there enough of them to go around?
Yeah - I previously mentioned the price structure of TIVO vs Replay when they first came out. I hope whoever was director of marketing of Replay who made the terrible decision to bundle the costs was fired.
04-29-04 | 09:20 AM
#55
DVD Talk Ultimate Edition
Originally posted by joltaddict
I just want a TiVo with a third tuner.
I just want a TiVo with a third tuner.
Last edited by ChrisHicks; 04-29-04 at 09:24 AM.
04-29-04 | 10:28 AM
#56
Retired
Originally posted by al_bundy
I did the math on this. Time Warner is $8.95 a month. For me it is $108 a month. It's $550 for the 80 hour TIVO including lifetime service. That means you need to own the TIVO for 5 years to break even compared to the cable DVR. Chances are that you are going to upgrade before then and so the cable is cheaper. The question is how often will the cable companies upgrade their DVR boxes with new features compared to a TIVO?
I did the math on this. Time Warner is $8.95 a month. For me it is $108 a month. It's $550 for the 80 hour TIVO including lifetime service. That means you need to own the TIVO for 5 years to break even compared to the cable DVR. Chances are that you are going to upgrade before then and so the cable is cheaper. The question is how often will the cable companies upgrade their DVR boxes with new features compared to a TIVO?
Red Dog,
Thanks for the tip!
04-29-04 | 11:26 AM
#57
Suspended
Re: Re: Re: Re: TIVO in trouble?
Originally posted by Josh Hinkle
And pretty much everyone already has a VCR that does just that, so that leaves little reason to by a Tivo for anyone not wanting to pay a monthly fee or buy a lifetime subscription.
And pretty much everyone already has a VCR that does just that, so that leaves little reason to by a Tivo for anyone not wanting to pay a monthly fee or buy a lifetime subscription.
1) No need to look for a blank tape.
2) No need to find the right tape when you want to watch a show.
3) No need to fast forward to the right point on the tape to get to the show you want to watch.
4) VCRs can't pause live TV.
5) VCRs can't rewind live TV.
6) You can't accidentally record over a show you didn't mean to record over with a TiVo.
There might be others, but that's what I came up with in 30 seconds off the top of my head.
04-29-04 | 11:27 AM
#58
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From: NJ
I am moving in the next couple of months and I plan on getting DirecTivo installed when I get my new dish (leaving the one I have now). My main question is, how hard is it to get the movies/shows off of the DirecTivo box and into the computer so I can encode them to DVD-Rs? Anyone have experience with that here?
04-29-04 | 11:31 AM
#59
Retired
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: TIVO in trouble?
Originally posted by JasonF
Reasons why a TiVo -- even without the subscription services -- kicks a VCR's ass.
1) No need to look for a blank tape.
2) No need to find the right tape when you want to watch a show.
3) No need to fast forward to the right point on the tape to get to the show you want to watch.
4) VCRs can't pause live TV.
5) VCRs can't rewind live TV.
6) You can't accidentally record over a show you didn't mean to record over with a TiVo.
There might be others, but that's what I came up with in 30 seconds off the top of my head.
Reasons why a TiVo -- even without the subscription services -- kicks a VCR's ass.
1) No need to look for a blank tape.
2) No need to find the right tape when you want to watch a show.
3) No need to fast forward to the right point on the tape to get to the show you want to watch.
4) VCRs can't pause live TV.
5) VCRs can't rewind live TV.
6) You can't accidentally record over a show you didn't mean to record over with a TiVo.
There might be others, but that's what I came up with in 30 seconds off the top of my head.
04-29-04 | 01:38 PM
#61
Moderator
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: TIVO in trouble?
Originally posted by Josh Hinkle
True, there are still advantages. But they're all moot points as the newer, series 2 Tivo's (which are pretty much all you can find in stores now) won't work like a VCR without a subscription.
True, there are still advantages. But they're all moot points as the newer, series 2 Tivo's (which are pretty much all you can find in stores now) won't work like a VCR without a subscription.
04-29-04 | 03:39 PM
#62
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: TIVO in trouble?
Originally posted by Groucho
Right. They work better than a VCR. A lot better.
Right. They work better than a VCR. A lot better.
But I think that if you gave the average person a free Tivo for a week, they wouldn't want to give it back at the end. If Tivo wants to beat the cable companies' DVRs, they need to emphasize the user-friendliness of the units, as well as things like the Home Media Option.
04-29-04 | 03:50 PM
#63
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From: Directionally Challenged (for DirecTV)
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: TIVO in trouble?
Originally posted by Achtung
But I think that if you gave the average person a free Tivo for a week, they wouldn't want to give it back at the end. If Tivo wants to beat the cable companies' DVRs, they need to emphasize the user-friendliness of the units, as well as things like the Home Media Option.
But I think that if you gave the average person a free Tivo for a week, they wouldn't want to give it back at the end. If Tivo wants to beat the cable companies' DVRs, they need to emphasize the user-friendliness of the units, as well as things like the Home Media Option.
Does TIVO still have the free 7 or 14-day free subscription window to try it out?
04-29-04 | 04:18 PM
#65
DVD Talk Hero
Originally posted by Jeremy517
That isn't accurate. If you buy, you have equity. I could sell my 3 year old TiVo for probably $700 right now. I paid less than that, including the price of the lifetime subscription.
That isn't accurate. If you buy, you have equity. I could sell my 3 year old TiVo for probably $700 right now. I paid less than that, including the price of the lifetime subscription.
This is what they are going for on ebay? Why would anyone pay you $700 for yours?
04-29-04 | 04:24 PM
#66
DVD Talk Hero
Originally posted by JM
It is this kind of thinking that makes ReplayTVs and Tivos a hard sell to the average person. There is MUCH more to a ReplayTV than a 40GB hard drive. Let's start with the hardware. Keep in mind that the current *retail* price of a ReplayTV 5540 or 5040 is $150 (not $300), which does not include activation ($299 lifetime OR $12.95/month). If you look, they can even be had for less than that--around $115. A ReplayTV includes the following components (among others):
1) A quality hardware MPEG-2 encoder AND decoder. By way of comparison, the Hauppage WinTV-PVR-350 Hardware MPEG encoder/decoder PCI card for a PC retails for $199 ALONE, and from what I've heard it produces worse video quality than a ReplayTV/Tivo.
2) An NTSC tuner
3) The aforementioned hard drive
4) Various video output chips for composite, s-video, and progressive component output
5) Digital Output Audio (TOSLink)
6) USB port (currently non-functional)
7) Ethernet
8) Modem
9) CPU and RAM
10) Power supply
11) Motherboard with various other chips
12) Standard A/V component-size case
Then you have the ReplayTV software itself. This is sophisticated software that took many man-hours and $$$ to develop and to continue to develop.
There are also many miscellaneous costs.
1) Licensing fees from vxWorks (the OS ReplayTV uses), MPEG LA (for MPEG-2 use), etc.
2) The ReplayTV employees that develop the software, put together the Zones content, do tech support, etc. All these people like to be paid.
3) The cost of maintaining dial-up access for older models and those without broadband access for newer models.
As you can see, there is a lot more involved than one might initially think.
The $13/mo. or $299 lifetime isn't for programming. It is an activation fee. Basically, ReplayTV sells the units for a loss at $150, and the activation fee is what allows them to make a profit. Also, ReplayTV never offered this for free as you say. Initially, it was just bundled into the purchase price. For example a 30GB ReplayTV 3xxx model retailed for $599. This turned out to be a horrible idea because it made ReplayTVs *appear* to be twice as much as a comparable Tivo, which had split the activation fee from the base price from the very beginning. This greatly contributed to Tivo getting the dominant market share even though ReplayTV actually invented the DVR first...
It is this kind of thinking that makes ReplayTVs and Tivos a hard sell to the average person. There is MUCH more to a ReplayTV than a 40GB hard drive. Let's start with the hardware. Keep in mind that the current *retail* price of a ReplayTV 5540 or 5040 is $150 (not $300), which does not include activation ($299 lifetime OR $12.95/month). If you look, they can even be had for less than that--around $115. A ReplayTV includes the following components (among others):
1) A quality hardware MPEG-2 encoder AND decoder. By way of comparison, the Hauppage WinTV-PVR-350 Hardware MPEG encoder/decoder PCI card for a PC retails for $199 ALONE, and from what I've heard it produces worse video quality than a ReplayTV/Tivo.
2) An NTSC tuner
3) The aforementioned hard drive
4) Various video output chips for composite, s-video, and progressive component output
5) Digital Output Audio (TOSLink)
6) USB port (currently non-functional)
7) Ethernet
8) Modem
9) CPU and RAM
10) Power supply
11) Motherboard with various other chips
12) Standard A/V component-size case
Then you have the ReplayTV software itself. This is sophisticated software that took many man-hours and $$$ to develop and to continue to develop.
There are also many miscellaneous costs.
1) Licensing fees from vxWorks (the OS ReplayTV uses), MPEG LA (for MPEG-2 use), etc.
2) The ReplayTV employees that develop the software, put together the Zones content, do tech support, etc. All these people like to be paid.
3) The cost of maintaining dial-up access for older models and those without broadband access for newer models.
As you can see, there is a lot more involved than one might initially think.
The $13/mo. or $299 lifetime isn't for programming. It is an activation fee. Basically, ReplayTV sells the units for a loss at $150, and the activation fee is what allows them to make a profit. Also, ReplayTV never offered this for free as you say. Initially, it was just bundled into the purchase price. For example a 30GB ReplayTV 3xxx model retailed for $599. This turned out to be a horrible idea because it made ReplayTVs *appear* to be twice as much as a comparable Tivo, which had split the activation fee from the base price from the very beginning. This greatly contributed to Tivo getting the dominant market share even though ReplayTV actually invented the DVR first...
I'm still thinking whether I should get the Time Warner DVR.
04-29-04 | 05:53 PM
#67
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Originally posted by al_bundy
It's not that complicated. All that could fit onto one or two chips. MPEG-2 is simple to do with today's technology. TIVO runs a modified linux kernel as it's OS. The big expense with them is the hard drive and the IDE channel that it needs.
It's not that complicated. All that could fit onto one or two chips. MPEG-2 is simple to do with today's technology. TIVO runs a modified linux kernel as it's OS. The big expense with them is the hard drive and the IDE channel that it needs.
04-29-04 | 06:22 PM
#68
Moderator
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: TIVO in trouble?
Originally posted by Red Dog
Does TIVO still have the free 7 or 14-day free subscription window to try it out?
Does TIVO still have the free 7 or 14-day free subscription window to try it out?
04-29-04 | 06:29 PM
#69
DVD Talk Legend
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: TIVO in trouble?
Originally posted by Groucho
Something like that. Combine that with a 30-day return policy at a place like Best Buy, and you can easily try it out for free. I bet a lot of the people saying "I have no interest" would change their tunes if they just tried it.
Something like that. Combine that with a 30-day return policy at a place like Best Buy, and you can easily try it out for free. I bet a lot of the people saying "I have no interest" would change their tunes if they just tried it.
I'm getting closer and closer to buying one though....
Too bad I'm stuck with cable (and they don't even offer DVR in my area yet).
04-29-04 | 08:52 PM
#70
DVD Talk Limited Edition
I was really gung-ho with getting a tivo a while ago. When I really wanted one (and needed it most) they were just too expensive for me. Now that they've come down in price I don't really need one anymore.
2 or 3 years ago I had about 20 must see shows on my list each week. Not to mention specials, movies, and other misc stuff. Now I barely watch 5. I have digital cable that offers on demand (while not as good as tivo, its still pretty nifty) which takes care of a lot of the shows I really want to see. When my cable provider offers dvr's I'll probably get one though. I know tivo is better than whatever my cable people will provide, but since I've never used it I won't miss it.
2 or 3 years ago I had about 20 must see shows on my list each week. Not to mention specials, movies, and other misc stuff. Now I barely watch 5. I have digital cable that offers on demand (while not as good as tivo, its still pretty nifty) which takes care of a lot of the shows I really want to see. When my cable provider offers dvr's I'll probably get one though. I know tivo is better than whatever my cable people will provide, but since I've never used it I won't miss it.
04-29-04 | 09:58 PM
#71
Retired
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: TIVO in trouble?
Originally posted by Achtung
But I think his original point is that a casual viewer, who doesn't have many shows to set a Season Pass or Wishlist for, wouldn't get much benefit out of a Tivo, and that for them a Tivo without the programming guide would essentially be the same as a VCR. If people are really unwilling to pay for the subscription, then yes a Tivo is useless for them.
But I think his original point is that a casual viewer, who doesn't have many shows to set a Season Pass or Wishlist for, wouldn't get much benefit out of a Tivo, and that for them a Tivo without the programming guide would essentially be the same as a VCR. If people are really unwilling to pay for the subscription, then yes a Tivo is useless for them.
Originally posted by Achtung
But I think that if you gave the average person a free Tivo for a week, they wouldn't want to give it back at the end. If Tivo wants to beat the cable companies' DVRs, they need to emphasize the user-friendliness of the units, as well as things like the Home Media Option.
But I think that if you gave the average person a free Tivo for a week, they wouldn't want to give it back at the end. If Tivo wants to beat the cable companies' DVRs, they need to emphasize the user-friendliness of the units, as well as things like the Home Media Option.
It's not that the technology isn't great, it is. But there's simply very little on TV that I find worth watching. If it wasn't for sports, I'd have no problems going without cable or satellite. And given that I only watch sports live, all I get out of Tivo is the pause/rewind live TV thing which I can do without.
04-30-04 | 08:41 PM
#72
Retired
Originally posted by Red Dog
Call Comcast and tell them that you are considering switching to a dish and ask what they will do to keep your business. Ask them to include a DVR in the new deal. I did this on Friday and got a much better deal - sliced my bill by $25 while basically trading Cinemax for a DVR in the process. Plus I'll be dumping HBO after Sopranos is over in a month so that will save me another $16.
Call Comcast and tell them that you are considering switching to a dish and ask what they will do to keep your business. Ask them to include a DVR in the new deal. I did this on Friday and got a much better deal - sliced my bill by $25 while basically trading Cinemax for a DVR in the process. Plus I'll be dumping HBO after Sopranos is over in a month so that will save me another $16.
I told them I'd think about it, but I spent the day talking with the leasing office, and my insurance broker, and ended up being allowed to get a satellite installed, with only an $11 increase on my renters insurance policy! I had problems getting the leasing office to let me do one period before, but thankfully they recently changed management/policies.
No DirecTivo for me though, since I don't have a phone line (just use my cell phone) and don't want one bad enough to go to that expense.
