I thought it was a good episode. They are acknowledging the very complaints that many of you have: that things aren't as they were, and they don't get out anymore to fight the good fight mano a mano.

Arghh.. it's "Shanshu", not "Shang Tzu".

</analretentive>

I thought it was "shu-whop, shu-whop", no?

Wasn't as entertaining as last week, but it was okay. I think so far my biggest question is: why haven't they addressed the "multiple slayers" thing, considering the end of Buffy. You'd think they'd have run into at least one slayer my now... unless the 'big bad' of the season turns out to be a pack of rogue, watcher-less slayers or something.

Maybe they exercised some common sense and made the whole "hundreds of slayers at once" a temporary spell.

The thing with the multiple slayers is that although many girls were suddenly empowered with slayer strength, none of them have Watchers around to explain to them what they are or why it has happened. I'm sure most of them are living their same old lives, a little curious why they seem to be stronger now than they used to. But it's not like they're all going to run around killing vampires.

What do you people want out of this show, anyway? This season has been great so far, as far as I'm concerned, a big improvement over the malaise of Season 4. It's nice to see that the writers have gotten their sense of humor back, and generally seem to remember what it was about the show's early seasons that was appealing in the first place.

I think most of the people on this board are determined to dislike the show at all costs, no matter what happens in it.

But for those of us who loved Season 4 and considered it Angel at its creative peak, this year is a major letdown so far. I suppose I can live with more standalone episodes(although Angel has always been better IMO as an arc-driven show). But what ME has done so far has been mediocre.

The werewolf episode covered the same ground as the character of Oz on Buffy. The Halloween episode was a retread of Buffy Season 4's "Something Blue". The characters bare no resemblance to their counterparts in previous years, particularly Wesley who was the highlight of last season. (If this is eventually linked to the "Connor mindwipe" spell then I'll be more forgiving.)

Another thing I miss this year is the brilliant fight choreography. I know ME said they'd have to cut back on that due to a smaller budget, but how about instead they ditch the dead weight in the cast like Lorne and the dreadful Eve and use that money wisely.

All that being said, last week's episode did shows hints of things picking up in the near future. The Shanshu prophecy should provide them with plenty of storylines for Angel and Spike. And it would be nice to see Wesley do some research on "the father will kill the son" and discover what Angel had W&H do to Connor. Plus, Wesley's dad comes to town next week, and Dru returns the week after!

An inaccurate observation; many of those who are expressing their distaste for this season greatly enjoyed previous ones. I thought Angel started off reasonably well in its first season, really found its footing the following season, and excelled in seasons three and four. I'm immensely disappointed in season five. Change tends to be divisive, and this season of Angel is by any reasonable standard a sharp change from the series it once was, for better or worse.

I'd certainly love the opportunity to enjoy Angel, but it's no longer the series I once enjoyed. Like the dismal last two seasons of Buffy, I'm merely watching out of habit and in the hope that it might get better.

FWIW, this most recent episode was my favorite of the season, though the severe pacing problems that have plagued season five so far are still present, and the fight choreography in Angel's first encounter with the demon was incredibly poor. I might be enjoying Angel more if it were a half-hour series; the writers really seem to be struggling to fill its hour time slot.

So many up and down replies, some like, some don't.

Can anyone tell me if any of the episodes feel like Season One episodes?

I'm fond of season one, as much as I like the other seasons as well.

What I think is happening with Angel Season 5, as the budget has been slashed, their saving their money for when it counts, while trying to low cost episodes as good as they can, so what some people call average or ok, it maybe for a reason, season two started off low key as well, then picked up.

It is like a show been reborn, there are things in place, its' very early in the season to be making conclusions. I read a CNN article called Angel Reborn, Ratings are up 20%, the show has had story arcs for the past 2 seasons, I think its cool to take a break from that.


some critics are already sold on the "Angel" changes.

"The episodes are more self-contained, and the stories are easier to follow," wrote USA Today critic Robert Bianco. "What hasn't altered is Whedon's ingenious mix of comedy and suspense; his fascination with the meanings of right, wrong and responsibility; and his ability to produce a ceaselessly entertaining hour of television."

http://edition.cnn.com/2003/SHOWBIZ/....ap/index.html


Personally I think its a good sign that some of you expect so much quality from Angel, Angel has been like X files like in its prime years, Buffy had more up and down episodes I say at times, but Angel, there was no episode that disappointed me that I ever watched, there were good or better then other television shows still.

The show almost ended with season four, however its now doing well, and alot of the season to go in season 5, whether or not it can out do previous seasons is a tall order, but to be as good as some of the previous seasons, thats the aim now, no show really continued the creative peaks through it's entire run, season two/three/four had story arcs, only season season 5 can compare with is maybe some of the season one episodes, then hopefully we get to season six, and some story arcs continue from a slam bang ending of season 5, I'm optimistic!!






NEW Angel Flies Lighter
Source - SciFiWire 29/10/03
Jeffrey Bell, co-executive producer of The WB's Angel, told SCI FI Wire that the vampire series is significantly lighter in tone this year, its fifth. "Oh, I would say it's several degrees lighter, but then again, we're not hosting an apocalypse this year," Bell said in an interview. "When you host an apocalypse, people are not real happy. It's very hard to go do some funny story when the sun has been blotted out and a beast has ripped out your innards and killed 5,000 people and there have been earthquakes and whatnot."


SPOLIERS:
Bell said that choices made early last season forced the writing staff to turn out darker episodes. Now, Bell said, with Cordelia (Charisma Carpenter) in a coma, Connor (Vincent Kartheiser) given a new home, and Angel (David Boreanaz) and the Fang Gang ensconced in their new digs at the law offices of Wolfram & Hart, Angel is much more in keeping with the episode-to-episode tonal changes of the first three seasons.








INTERVIEW WITH JOSS preview, great quote, SPOILER ALERT AS WELL


"What is the theme for this season of Angel? The theme of this season is corruption because they’ve taken over Wolfram and Hart. The theme is can we do good in an evil world or will we just become tainted by it?

There's been a reason why Angel hasn't gone out much in the early episodes, what will being caged up and making decisions at the desk do to him? and others? thats' going to reach a boiling point, I find that exciting


And what would be shocking, Angel and the gang being tainted by IT!!

I FIND THAT EXCITING!!! SIT BACK AND LETS ROCK AND ROLL INTO SEASON GIVE ONCE AGAIN

Regarding the "slayer" issue:

GENERAL PLOT POINTS FOR UPCOMING EP(S):

This is what worries me about this season the most. The first two episodes of this season were good and episode four I think it was (Spike fighting hell) was also good, but this season does not have the "Angel" feel to it.

I agree with a previous post that Angel has always been at its strongest when it is driven by an arc like Darla from season two, Holtz in season three and Jasmine in season four.

I still hold to my belief that ratings are up simply because Buffy is off the air and the Buffy fans that didn't watch Angel have started watching it this season to get their Buffyworld fix. Plus, throw in all of the Spike fans who are watching just for him and the ratings increase is explained.

I just don't want ME and WB to see these increased ratings and feel as though they are putting out more superior episodes than in the past. The episodes have been funny at times, but the humor seems to forced and Angel himself doesn't even seem like the same character that drew me into the Buffy world.

If budget cuts are the reason for the lack of fight scences, then that is understandable, but that does not justify the character regressions that are taking place. If they wanted to keep costs down for the first part of the season to build up to mind blowing episodes, then fine. Why not use those "cheap episodes" to have the original character interact with each other digging through propechies and other text trying to figure out Spike's relevance to the Shanshu propechy or Wolfram Hart.

Regardless of the reason, the season is treading water and it better not stay that way just because ratings are up.

For those of you that think this season is the worst so far, I think you might be remembering things through rose-colored glasses.

Let's see, we've suffered through the following in all the previous seasons:

1. Dorky Wesley
2. Pylea
3. Fred the basketcase
4. Holtz
5. Karaoke on a weekly basis
6. Connor
7. Angelus (who is too nice to kill people now, apparently)
8. Gunn as a total meathead
9. I almost forgot Justine.
10. And the worst, Cordelia and Angel: will they or won't they?

I've been watching since day 1 and I love the show, but anyone that thinks that this season is any worse than huge chunks of the last few seasons hasn't been paying attention. The show has been MUCH worse.

This was a GREAT episode. Progressed the arc a little bit, but told an interesting side story at the same time. Spike is just as snarky as he used to be, which is SUCH a welcome change from the absolute garbage his character has been since Season 4 of "Buffy." Threw in a touch of the Connor story, and I'm curious to see if the others will find out about all of that. I thought it was such a cheap cop-out last year, but if it comes full circle I'll revise that opinion.

Bring it on "Angel," you've been so much worse (and I still loved you.)

I disagree with your view of previous Angel seasons. What was wrong with dorky Wesley? I thought he was hilarious, and if you didn't start out there you wouldn't have had the very interesting progression of this character to what he is now.

I have been watching Spike from season 2 and his episode of season 3, and I have to say he is NOT back to the way he was. He was much better back then.

I liked karaoke, and I didn't think Pylea was as bad as everyone here seems to think. Connor was annoying, but not as bad as the slog through this season. Gunn was better as a meathead.

Angelus didn't kill any major characters except the one on Buffy, so I don't get the criticism of him now.

Well finally got around to watching the last episode and yes it was a huge improvement over the halloween episode, but thats not saying much. One thing I was thinking the entire episode is Angel never vamps out anymore. Even when he was getting the beat down from the Aztec he now keeps his human form....is the budget really THAT low or are they trying to show Angel is a good guy to new viewers possibly?

Well I can't wait for season 3 to be released on dvd along with 4. The Darla story arc along with Holtz was great and what i consider the best of both Angel and Buffy.

If anything, I guess I am happy w/ the ep in the sense that Angel finally got out of the damn office building and engaged in some fisticuffs.

A pratfalling character is not interesting to me to watch. We already did all that on Buffy anyway. No reason to rehash it. I would have rather he came back a little naive but out of the "English buffoon" stage.

Quote:

I have been watching Spike from season 2 and his episode of season 3, and I have to say he is NOT back to the way he was. He was much better back then.

Don't really see a difference. The only reason I've ever liked Spike is because he plays by his own rules and has no problems insulting the members of his own team. Seems to be doing the same thing now.

Quote:

I liked karaoke, and I didn't think Pylea was as bad as everyone here seems to think. Connor was annoying, but not as bad as the slog through this season. Gunn was better as a meathead.

Every single character sang at the karoke bar in the space of a few months. It was beaten into the ground.

Pylea was a "holy crap we have to finish this season...uh...send them to another dimension for 3 episodes." And it felt that way to watch it.

Connor was the pinnacle of annoying. Nothing this season (or in any other season) has come close to that mullet-haired whiner.

And as far as Gunn goes, I prefer my characters to have a personality. Not to be the token black character or simply "the muscle." And, his relationship with Fred was so laughably BAD, with zero chemistry between the two of them that I'm grateful they said to hell with it and rebooted the character into something that is a LOT more interesting to watch.

Quote:

Angelus didn't kill any major characters except the one on Buffy, so I don't get the criticism of him now.

Oh, I dunno. How about the fact that they beat into our heads that Angelus was Bad with a capital B in our day, yet when they bring him onto "Angel" his evilness is simply his ability to talk incessantly yet not actually DO anything? Probably because the writers didn't want to have to deal with Angelus doing anything that Angel would have to live with. Which is lame, lazy and shows that Angelus showed up to allow Angel to be a smartass and nothing more.

I know what you're saying about Spike, because he has always been one of my favorite characters, but I do not feel he is as well-written as he used to be. Yes he still has some funny lines, but not as consistently as previous. Although I do still enjoy him.

I did enjoy Wesley's pratfalling, and I especially loved him dancing at that party in the episode "She" I believe. Angel's dream sequence in that episode was also extremely funny. I guess that's the kind of thing I liked from old Angel episodes which seem to be missing now. Maybe Cordelia was more essential than I thought, although early Cordelia was better than late Cordelia in my eyes. I just don't feel there is the balance of drama and humor that Whedon is known for. Hopefully it will pick up.

Good stuff Draven, be a while since I see season 5, as I'm in UK London, but I like you comments on Angel's past seasons, for me, any weaknesses in Angel didn't bother me too much, however I didn't like Connor much, and Cordy became so different in season four, perhaps good to get away from that, Wesley has changed, but too much prat jokes is rehashing, his change I think has been for the better, Cordy could be touch more lighter, and thats what she's done so well in the past, Wesley always had this side of him, that's there more to me etc.


Season four was a great season, however even that season is not everyone's cup of tea, as some like the team working together rather then split up etc, good to see some light after the darkness, each season has had a slightly different flavour for it, and I guess they all have fans.


I'm sure if you analyse the seasons, everyone has a opinion of what they want to see in Angel, no one seems totally wrong or right.

Amen to all of that. IMO Seasons 2-4 of Angel were nothing short of amazing.......and now suddenly Season 5 is one big letdown and far less interesting even than Season 1. I need something to happen and fast or what used to be my favorite show currently on tv will be that no longer.

That being said, I think this week's episode was the most interesting one of the season so far. I just want a story arc dammit!!! It would also be nice if someone could just blow up Wolfram & Hart so the characters can move back to the Hyperion, but I don't think that'll happen......anytime soon anyway

Sorry, loving this season. It's funny that no matter what they do, people bitch. More arc. Okay, now the show sucks. Less arc, okay now the show sucks.

I will not argue the fact that the show has had its low points. Sorry, Draven, but you've answered incorrectly. The worst character ever to grace Angel's doorway, and quite possibly the worst actress in televison was JUSTINE. We were looking for Justine.

Also hated Angel/Cordy, and Connor too. And Angelus definitely was a wuss last season. While I didn't have MAJOR complaints last season, except maybe for Cordelia's character downfall, I like the way they are trying something NEW and DIFFERENT this season. So far it's been pretty cool.

And Doughboy, USE FRICKING SPOILER TAGS. SOME OF US DON'T WANT TO KNOW WHAT'S HAPPENING NEXT!!!!!!!!!

X

I agree, it's like the writers of the show can't win, their damned if they do and damned if they don't, I think people just like to bitch and moan on message boards about everything. I never hear anything in the real world, My girlfriend like's the show and I have a lot of friends who watch it too and none of them complain.

The only people who complain are the one's on Message boards...Wonder why

Are buffy and Angel fans really that bitter? Ok I know we all want quality when we watch a show and I still believe Angel is just as good as it's ever been, My advice. Go out and get a girlfriend, wife, boyfriend, Hit the gym, go out with friends, do whatever makes you happy. then go home and sit back and just enjoy the show. Don't think to much into it, just relax, it's only TV.

Oh and by the way, someone must be enjoying the new season because they've already been picked up for season 6.

When did I say this???? and when did I say that I only have 2 to 3 friends??? I'm confused by your whole reply, it's seems as if you were making stuff up just to insult me and make me sound like an *******??? Maybe you should read what I wrote again and next time please don't resort to an immature response such as this. please act your age, because if your going to turn around and quote me on stuff I didn't say and things you couldn't possibly know...I don't see a point in responding to your replys.

quote:
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Originally posted by BigDog21
When did I say this????
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quote:
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My advice. Go out and get a girlfriend...
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That whole bit. How can it be interpreted other than "if you don't like the show, get a life"?

quote:
Go out and get a girlfriend, wife, boyfriend, Hit the gym, go out with friends, do whatever makes you happy. then go home and sit back and just enjoy the show. Don't think to much into it, just relax, it's only TV.


*Sigh* See you just did it again, this was my original reply and you just made it into more then it actually is *Sigh* Thank you for proving my point and all I was saying by my original reply not the one that you fabricated was just relax, anyone who is over analyzing a tv show does have too much time on their hands. I never said that if you don't like the show get a life, I didn't even insinuate that. Your obviously quoting me in such a way that if someone doesn't read my original reply, then they are automatically going to assume that I was saying quote: My Advice. Get a girlfriend... Pretty petty...All I was saying was if you don't like it, don't watch it, if you do like it, watch it.


I don't understand how my reply was immature, seem to me that you both took everything the wrong way and maybe feel a little insecure by my reply...I'm sorry I didn't want anyone to get upset or feel insecure by what I said, I was just saying what I felt to be true. I'm guessing Morf is either a message board buddy or someone thats been on the board awhile because your obviously sticking up for your message board friend. If this is going to turn into one of those name calling messageboard fights or one of those fights where you see how smart you can sound, please don't bother because I won't reply.

How so?

Wait a second what happend to your reply??? It dissapeared