Too bad this wasn’t a poll.

Ah, but does she suck? I sure hope so...

The only two episodes of TOS I've ever cared about owning are The City on the Edge of Forever and Space Seed, the latter only because it is the prequel to Star Trek 2.

That original Star Trek was horrible. I have yet to sit through an entire episode. Bad stories, bad sci-fi, bad acting, just plain bad.

Re: All Right, Admit It -- Star Trek TOS Sucked
 

I can't imagine why anyone would revere "Roger Nelson" when the character's name was Tony Nelson (or perhaps you meant his best friend, Roger Healey).

It didn't suck, but then again you really sound like you disliked it. oh well.

I would probably agree with some of the 'sucking' argument. But the ideas were there and it had a lot of charm.

However, for me, the definitive STAR TREK is TNG. When I think of STAR TREK, that's what I think of. No better captain than Jean-Luc, plus the rest of the characters. And the greatest villian - Q...

I wonder what the ages of the TOS-lovers and TOS-haters are. My guess is that there is an over-under somewhere in the early-mid 20s.

Bread & Circuses is probably one of the worst episodes of TOS so to use that one to judge the whole series is unfair. One could just as easily take a lame episode of TNG and do the same thing. The 3rd season of TOS was pretty bad but it did include 2 of my favorites: The Enterprise Incident and The Tholian Web.

<BLOCKQUOTE> • Quoth Red Dog •<HR SIZE=1>Bread & Circuses is probably one of the worst episodes of TOS so to use that one to judge the whole series is unfair. One could just as easily take a lame episode of TNG and do the same thing.<HR SIZE=1></BLOCKQUOTE>

Don't make me mention "Sub Rosa" ... cuz I will ...

It's saddening to hear that the next generation of Trek fans doesn't appreciate how ground-breaking and daring the original series was when it aired. It seems that we've been so spoiled with great television shows like <I>TNG</I> and <I>Babylon 5</I> that we've forgotten how we got here.

das

P.S. For those who don't like the show, more power to you, but I don't think I'll ever hear a more absurd thing in my lifetime than comparing it to <I>Voyager</I>.

Oh and more comment about The Tholian Web - the Tholians in that episode sounded far cooler than the Tholians in that one episode of Enterprise.

Y,WdS

:)

And I wonder how many TOS-haters are Enterprise lovers. From what I've read, many of the latter are deer-in-the-headlights over CGI.

I just remember as a teenager watching the original Trek and loving it. There was one episode in particular that I thought was great. It was called "Let That Be Your Last Battlefield"

When one of the characters tells Kirk that the reason he wants to kill this fugitive that has seeked asylum on the Enterprise is because he is black on one side and white on the other, it just hit me how ridiculous racism in general is. In that one episode, I learned that hating someone because they are all black is just as stupid as hating them because they are half black on the left side, or the right side. That has always stayed with me. I thought the way the writers made the viewers see just how utterly ridiculous it is was brilliant.

I'll give you that it was original and daring when it first aired. But does that mean it still holds up and I should still enjoy it presently - it's difficult to watch something in proper context.

Let's take Citizen Kane (true, it's not fair to use one of the greatest films ever made as an example, but still...) - that film was vary daring an original for it's time. Yet it still remains powerfully effective. Why? I dunno... Maybe because it was so great and still is.

TOS is barely what it once was. Why? I dunno... Maybe because it's not so great anymore.

I would disagree. I think it's very effective now, and sometimes I think we could use a good beating over the head with the simple and straightforward messages it tries to teach. I watch episodes today and derive great entertainment and satisfaction from the experience. The Kirk/Spock/McCoy dynamic stands the test of time in my mind as does Gene's vision. Things like special effects and cheesy make-up are insignificant to me, and as such, I don't see what part of the show is less valid now than it was 35+ years ago.

das

I see your point - but I guess I just prefer things to be a lot more subtle and beneath-the-surface than TOS ever was.

<BLOCKQUOTE> • Quoth slop101 •<HR SIZE=1>I see your point - but I guess I just prefer things to be a lot more subtle and beneath-the-surface than TOS ever was. <HR SIZE=1></BLOCKQUOTE>

I like that too; however, I think part of the point of the original series was through lack of subtlety, they could point out our own absurdity (<I>South Park</I> often uses a similar tactic in addition to subtle satire).

The black-white/white-black thing is so silly for a reason. They went out of their way to make things obvious, so you'd say to yourself, "well, now, that's just silly" and hopefully follow it up with, "wait a minute ... they're talkin' 'bout me."

I too very much appreciate subtlety in my drama, but I don't feel it's essential to being effective. In much the same way, I don't think horror needs to have things jumping out at you to be scary, and I don't think <I>Law & Order</I> needs a "twist ending" every week to be effective. :)

das

Does it suck?

Thoughts from a long-time trekker... (I was a fan of TOS for many years before TNG came on the scene...)

Some of it, perhaps. But you could say that about TNG/DS9/VOY/ENT as well. They have all had their sucky moments. (Some more than others *cough*voyager*cough*)

A lot of the episodes don't stand up to the test of time. Others do. Some of the writing was great, some was horrible. (Spock jammin' with the space-hippies anyone?) The FX/sets/makeup/costumes may seem cheesy, but some of the stories underlying all that are still very good.

Lets not forget... without TOS, there would BE no TNG/DS9/VOY/ENT. :)


das, I agree AND disagree with you. Lemme 'splain.

Yes, the triumverite holds up well over time. No question about it. Perhaps the acting wasn't always award-winning, but the idea holds up well.

What I don't agree with is the statement of "Gene's vision".

(Stand back... I've got a big-ass can of worms, and I'm openin' the sucker.)

Gene Roddenbery's creation/contribution to Star Trek is over-rated.

BLASPHAMY!

Hold on hold on... I know that Gene created the show. He came up with the whole "Wagon Train to the Stars" idea.

However, a great deal of things that are integral to ST nowadays, that are taken for granted, were created by Gene COON, whose input is, sadly, vastly under-rated. Coon came up with the Klingons, the non-interference "Prime Directive", and several other key ideas that are well-known parts of ST-lore. Sadly, he passed away young, and hardly anyone remembers what he added to the series, except for old-timers like Herb Solow and Bob Justman.

That everything is attributed to Roddenbery annoys me at times. The man had some great ideas, no question. But as a writer, he was just not that great. And he was a little too quick to grab credit sometimes. (Did you know that after Alexander Courage wrote the theme to ST, that Roddenbery created never-heard (and TERRIBLE) lyrics for the song, supposedly just so he could get a cut of the royalties from the music? Courage was reportedly FURIOUS with this!)

Anywho... don't misunderstand... I *love* Trek. TOS, in all it's cheesy goodness, will always be great fun for me. And I have great respect for what Roddenbery created, and his contributions. I just get tired of seeing his named bandied about like some sort of sci-fi demi-god, when a great deal of other people get forgotton.

My two cents.. look... worms as far as the eye can see! :D




PS - Erin Grey... DAMN! She was a hottie! :D

slop101, any examples? Thought-provoking and TV rarely go together, especially these days.

I get a feeling that we would be in a very small minority with that opinion, but :up:

It seems that the REAL arguement being made here is not that TOS is "bad" but rather that it hasn't aged well. Some films/shows are timeless, the can be enjoyed in any time or era. One does not have to adjust ones perceptions to the period it was made in to enjoy a "timeless" film or show. Other films/shows are still good, but when they were made must be taken into account in order to have an appreciation.

The Wizard of Oz is timeless
Gone With the Wind requires perspective to be appreciated

<B>CanadianKnight</B>, I've read every anti-Roddenberry book written, so don't confuse the comment "Gene's vision" with "Gene is God," and I certainly don't need a history lesson on Trek from someone who uses the word "Trekker." :D :D (What, are you crossing the desert? ;)) I can accept that you used my innocent comment as a springboard for a rant you've had building inside you, but Gene is neither God nor Satan. Still, "Gene's vision" is a foundation for the series and deserves credit, whether you contribute to those building his statues or those tearing them down.

das ... Trekkie, and proud of it

rotfl rotfl rotfl

Oh fine... TREKKIE. Personally, I could care less about which title is more appropo. ;)

Don't misunderstand me. I'm not "anti-Roddenbery" at all. I'm more "pro-the-forgotten-folks". ;) The whole thrust of my post was: Gene Roddenbery's creation/contribution to Star Trek is over-rated. Not that Roddenbery is the Anti-Christ. ;)

LOL! Don't misunderstand das... I didn't mean to pick on YOU for a mini-rant. :D And I'm neither "building-up" nor "tearing down" Roddenbery.

You are quite right.. he is neither God nor Satan, and maybe my rant looked like it contained more venom than I intended. :) Gene's "vision" for the series was indeed the foundation and deserves credit. I just had to say, in my own long-winded way, let's give credit where the credit is due. ;)

Didn't mean to hijack the thread... really. :)

Me too das... me too. ;)

(Only a TREKKIE would have a collection of phasers proudly displayed in his computer room...LOL!)

TOS didn't suck
it wasn't the best show ever, but it is far from suckage

Six Feet Under, Shield, Sopranos, Wire, Hill Street Blues, Oz and what I feel is the best TV show ever Homicide: Life on the Streets. Hey, it's won 2 Peabodys, it can't be too dumb a show.

<B>CanadianKnight</B>,

It's all good. :D I meant only light-hearted fun with my comments. :D

In any case, Solow and Justman's <B>Inside Star Trek</B> (which I believe is the primary source for your criticism) is essential reading for anyone who claims to be a Trek fan and is absolutely fascinating on many levels, particularly the ins and outs of actually producing the show (set design, budget management, etc). For laughs, one should also read Ellison's entertaining perspective in his foreward to the published teleplay of <B>The City on the Edge of Forever</B>.

das