• Quoth elektra •<HR SIZE=1>das - what's your thoughts on the principal? <HR SIZE=1>

Not sure. When he first showed up, I thought he was some agent of good who would lay in wait until the end. I still think that's pretty possible, but he's really got me thinking about it. D.B. Woodside was cast because he just oozes a positive confidence and trust. The question is whether that's exactly who he will be or if it's it's intentional misdirection. His comments about "solving the mystery" though have me wondering if he's an outsider, something else that we don't really know about ... a Watcher, but more in the Highlander sense of the word.

das

Well, if this is indeed the final season for Buffy, they sure are going out with a bang. Excellent episode.

I think all of those things that are making us go, "Why did this or that happen," were put there intentionally to give both clues AND misdirection.

Is it Giles or isn't it? There are good arguments for both, and I don't think we'll find out for another 3 or 4 episodes - if then - whether or not it is. And as for the principal, it wouldn't surprise me if his whole deal isn't explained until the last 3 or 4 episodes.

The writing for this storyline has been outstanding. You're never quite sure what's going on, or what's going to happen.

Did anyone else think Buffy looked really pretty at the end with her face all beat-up?

She didn't have much make-up on and I thought she looked really good, even with all the bruises. Her face looked younger and she didn't look as haggard as she has been for much of this season.

mmmmmmmmm daddy ALWAYS like smg

Here's another point that I thought of a few weeks ago, but didn't post...

If "the first" is truly the first evil, the evil that created or inspired all other evil, shouldn't there be a corresponding "first good?"

The "first good" couldn't be the slayers or the council, because they were created in reaction to all of the evil that followed "the first." "The first" even said that he/it wasn't going for a balance between good and evil anymore, and for there to be a balance there would have to be a force of good on the same level as "the first" evil.

Shouldn't Buffy/Giles (IF it really is Giles) be trying to find out what that force of good is, and how to use it or gain it's help?

Just a thought....

Watching the episode, I had a definite feeling that there was something up with the "lesbian" slayer-in-training. She had a more ominous vibe to her than the other two. If Giles really is the first evil, it's possible that she's his agent (while the other two, including the now dead one) are really slayers to be.

Couple of thoughts:
1) re - the 'first good'. Isn't there a primal slayer that Buffy had (dream) contact with? I wouldn't be surprised to see that come up in the near future.
2) Joyce's words seemed fairly heavily weighted to me - all that stuff about the evil within us all... Will Buffy, or someone (Willow), have to embrace their inner evil to develop enough power to defeat the first evil.
3) Why Buffy is still alive - could it be that the first is less informed of the succession than we all are? If the first isn't aware that she's no longer Slayer comma The, then it could be just roughing her up, thinking that if she dies, it just activates the next in line. This was hinted at a bit with the comment that the first would come for the SITs, then Faith, then Buffy (when, actually, it should kill Faith last, as the extant Slayer).
Does any of this make sense?

Oh, I think SMG is really pretty but this season for some reason she hasn't looked as good. I think her makeup or the lighting has been bad. She is looking a lot older this season and that end scene last night she looked much younger.

Plus SMG is a lot skinnier now and I thoughtmaybe that's why she hasn't looked as good. Her face has seemed a little gaunt recently like she is really run-down.

What got me was the smirk as he said that, like he was "in on the joke". Personally, I love his character. Way too early to tell what role he might play. I think he's the riddle wrapped up in an enigma this year.

Also, one other thing I noticed on the subject of the touchy-feely issue. I know it was always in a dream state but, as much as it was apparent that Giles was staying so hand's off all night, it was also very overt how much physical contact was made towards Buffy by her mom. She touched her an awful lot in compassionate ways. I do think there is an unknown here and the First is creating a clever smoke screen for us to not see it clearly.


[by the way, Das, glad I remembered this place was here. can talk Buffy with you again!]

Here's my two cents on Giles:

In the episode where he killed Ben/Glory, he says something to the effect that the Scoobies weren't like him and Glory. This made me believe that he has some supernatural power that no one knows about. This may explain why he wasn't killed when the axe came down on him. JMHO.

I also loved the new SIT conversation with Willow and Willow's reaction to Dawn saying eat.

He said Buffy wasn't like them meaning people like him and Ben. He meant that Buffy does't have it in here to kill a human no matter how much of a threat it is to her or her friends. That's why he killed Ben, he knew Buffy wouldn't and Glory would show up again laster if Ben lived.

I am glad I am not the only one that thought Buffys hair had grown alot since she had it chopped last season.
Wooo, glad I got that out of my hair.

my thoughts:

the "First" can imitate the only the dead.

There must be a GOOD that is opposite of the FIRST.
I think Giles is dead, and that the GOOD is imitating
HIM.
I hate to think that because I will be really pissed if he doesnt get a proper send off but...

Great episode. You think we'll get more of a Josh touch with Firefly gone?

Thanks for clarifying that MrX.

cooper2000 - I was wondering the same thing. That would stink because that would mean no show with Giles. Unless we have to go back to he's not really dead. That means the show has turned into Star Trek and we need to end it now!!!!

joefrog91 - If Giles had special powers he would not have had to borrow the powers last season to fight Willow.

In the first appearance of The First Evil ("Amends" in Season Three) it's pretty clear that there is a corresponding, cosmic Good. It was obviously the power that sent the snowstorm to blot out the sun when Angel was trying to incinerate himself.

Even if The Good is currently acting through Giles &/or Joyce, it's taking a pretty passive role at the moment. Hopefully, it'll all make sense eventually...

It's been over a year since SMG/Buffy's haircut. What's the average growth of hair/month? 1 inch? 0.5 inch?

I kept on expecting the usual drum music (starts softly and ends with a loud bang) that you get with inspirational military (going into battle) speeches at the end.

A couple of thoughts...

1) If there really is a "first good", why would it be hidden? Why wouldn't it have shown its "face" earlier in the show? Wouldn't it have made sense for the "first good" to show up as Tara to convince Dark Williow to not end the world last season?

2) Unless the "first good" was contained in the Watcher's building & when it was brought down, it allowed the "first good" to roam free. Almost a final contingency plan of the Watchers. But that's pretty silly.

3) If both Giles & Joyce were good, Giles would have mentioned something about a "first good" which can appear as a friendly ghost & that they should take that into consideration. One could suggest that Giles didn't want them (Buffy & everyone) to actually know he was dead, but he could have included the "first good" part in his speech about the "first evil".

4) If they're not both good, we could think that both were evil. If both were evil, why wouldn't Giles have made up something about a "first good" to convince Buffy to listen to her mother? They were both trying to convince her to rest, right?

5) OK, so I'm thinking that it's not a case where they're both good or evil. So what if they're different? One is the "first good", one is the "first evil". If this is the case, why wouldn't they have mentioned something about each other being there? Perhaps they can't see/sense each other, which would be kinda interesting.

Unless... Giles isn't dead. The whole "not touching anything / anyone" is a red herring.

Or... Joyce was never there. She wasn't even there as a ghost. She's in Buffy's imagination. In fact, the two times Joyce showed up, Buffy was sleeping, right? Unless the first evil has some Nightmare on Elm Street (or "First Slayer") thing going on, I'm not sure how it could have an effect in dreams.

Tooooo much thinking. I give up.

SMG looked better in the early seasons (like the first) when her face was rounder and she was more curvey

Well, if one takes the biblical Revelation as a reference, then the first evil and his baddies are "allowed" to do all the bad stuffs, and at the last "pre-determined" moment, the first good will put a stop to all the non-sense. But of course, in that scenerio, the first good doesn't really need any puny human assistance. 8-)

That's kind of what I'm thinking at this point. He still could be an undercover agent of good, but I suspect he could just as easily be part of some neutral group dedicated to preserving a natural balance between good and evil.

I think this because the element of some kind of natural balance between good and evil seemed to be hinted at in Joyce's conversation with Buffy. If the conversation wasn't cut off I thought she was leading up to something about neither good nor evil being able to achieve total victory because it goes against the natural order of things.

If that is in fact where Joyce was going with that, the principal-seems kind of nice, apparently knows most of what's up, mainly watching but marching to a different drummer when he does act-would be the perfect representative of any organization with that viewpoint.

That's what I'm thinking, but I know this could still turn in a lot of different directions.

• Quoth jkingfish •<HR SIZE=1>[by the way, Das, glad I remembered this place was here. can talk Buffy with you again!] <HR SIZE=1>

Well, shizzle my nizzle! Long time. Been damn lonely without you to discuss the finer points of life with. Hope you'll hang around and not just in the Buffy threads.

das

Well, if that's an invite, how could I refuse?

Actually, I spent a lot of time trolling through here and plan to throw my $0.02 where I feel they are needed.

Hmmmm.... since my speculation relies on a very big spoiler posted earlier....



Or, it could be that the "first good" is actually a vorlon.... wait... wrong universe.

The Vorlons VS the Shadows - it all went to hell when they didn't want to have that balance anymore.

The thing that got me thinking about the idea of a "first good," was when the "first evil" said he/it wasn't going for a balance anymore between good and evil. That implies that there is a corresponding - and equal - force of good, keeping the evil in check. As old as the first evil - perhaps older. So it couldn't be the first slayer - the slayers were a reaction to forces of "evil."

This season really reminds me of Babylon 5. I get the feeling that Joss is a B5 fan. Of course, other seasons of Buffy have had a similar storytelling style to B5, but this one so far really comes the closest. "First evil," and the Shadows. So who will play the part of the Vorlons on Buffy?

Come on, Erik ... don't confuse good vs. evil with order vs. chaos.

Btw, there are only two kinds of people in this world: "B5 Fans" ... and "Future B5 Fans"

das