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Buffy 11/20/01

Old 11-22-01, 11:26 AM
  #51  
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Originally posted by Patman
This sucks that I won't be seeing the Buffy/Dracula episode for some time to come because it's one of the few episodes that won't be shown by FX in the 1st run re-runs, and it won't be shown by UPN's rerun schedule.
I really wouldn't stress it. It was more of a goofy episode, than anything else. There were some good comedic bits, a little info, and that's about it.
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Old 11-22-01, 12:08 PM
  #52  
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Originally posted by elektra
KaL - KO! Did Dracula say something about her power coming from darkness?
Can't remember exactly what he said, but yes, I think he did mention something to that effect (and there may have been other references to it, too, in other episodes??). Wish they'd show it again....grrrrrrr.

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Old 11-22-01, 12:50 PM
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Originally posted by renaldow
If he could coerce them with threat against a Boba Fett doll, what kind of power to coerce would he have had if he'd noticed they'd had the stolen diamond?
Dude!! You just don't get it. A diamond is just a diamond, but a genuine rocket-firing Boba Fett... Look at it from the geeks' POV.





As for the vamping Buffy thing -- think outside the box. I'm suggesting it's done with Buffy's okey dokey...and she doesn't turn.

Can a vamp turn a non-human? (Not a rhetorical question, btw, I don't know.)
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Old 11-22-01, 02:55 PM
  #54  
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Originally posted by MrN
I have a question about the 3 nerds.

I know Jonathan has been pretty much a regular and I think the first appearance of the Buffy-bot guy was last season. Where's the third nerd from - did he just show up this season?
I do believe the third nerd made a point of saying he was the brother of the demon dog summoning student from "The Prom". Maybe they originally inteded it to be the demon dog summoner, but the actor who played him was unavailable, so they modified the role to be his previously unseen bother... On a side note, the actor who plays the third nerd also appeared as a vamp in
Spoiler:
Harmony's gang

Last edited by Slumbering Fist; 11-22-01 at 02:59 PM.
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Old 11-22-01, 04:56 PM
  #55  
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Can a vamp turn a non-human? (Not a rhetorical question, btw, I don't know.)
Good question! A vampire is a human/vampire demon (which I call a Vantal because a demon monk revered to Angel as one once.)

If a demon was bitten and then drank the blood back it might be possible. Or the demon might just die and not reserect due to being incompatable... I don't know.
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Old 11-22-01, 06:24 PM
  #56  
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If you tried to turn a demon into a vampire, there would be a fight between the two inner demons. Something similar happened in 'The Dark Age' when a demon tried to posess Angel.
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Old 11-22-01, 10:27 PM
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Yes, the two demon souls fought... kind of odd that actually.

Not all demons have the same type of soul. Some demons have souls that try to be good... but those are mostly human/demon hyrids.. of course, vampires are hyrids too..
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Old 11-23-01, 07:37 PM
  #58  
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Going back to that episode on FX lst night in the Buffy-a-thon (Fool For Love, Episode 5.7) featuring Spike's story, there's a line in that episode that Buffy says to Spike: "You're beneath me", echoing what Sessily says to William (pre-vamp-Spike), and that infuriates Spike into getting himself armed with a shotgun for a battle royale with Buffy.

Well, look how much foreshadowing Joss was able to work in with "Smashed" where Spike is literally BENEATH Buffy in their consummation of their lust. Just though it was a funny coinky-dinky.
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Old 11-23-01, 10:52 PM
  #59  
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Also in that ep, when he goes to hit her, he feels the pain from the chip.
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Old 11-24-01, 05:22 PM
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I liked "Smashed" fine, but for the first time Spike's character arc bothered me. I know a lot of people hate the fact that Spike went good (or not so evil) after the chip was inserted. It never really upset me because it was a rather gradual change and I'm willing to give the writers some latitude.

However, in this episode Spike goes 180 degrees again. At the end of last season and up to "Smashed" Spike, at least in his mind, loves Buffy. He fought along side her, cried when she died, swore to protect her sister, etc. Even those remarks he made earlier such as alluding to the fact he's counted all the days since she died and the fact he saved her every night since in his dreams indicates he genuinely cares for her.

Here, when he finds out something is wrong with Buffy he isn't concerned. He doesn't look for a way to break it to her. He isn't worried about her emotional well being. His reaction is to taunt her with the information. To make fun of her. This is consistent with the evil Spike but not the Spike of the last year or so.

As I mentioned, I'm willing to give the writers some room to tell their stories. But, this seems like a glaring inconsistency. I hope this is explained somehow in future episodes. I don't care if Spike is good, bad, or whatever. I just want it to make some sense and follow a logical progression.

Does anyone else agree or did you find Spike's actions consistent with the way he has been written before?
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Old 11-24-01, 06:02 PM
  #61  
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I think Spike is and always has been 'evil' - but he's in love with Buffy. I don't think those two things are inconsistent. He'll do anything for her if it'll get him in her pants (and did he!!!)

When he found out his chip maybe malfunctioning, he goes out and attacks a woman. If the chip was on the fritz, I don't doubt that he would have followed through and killed the girl. Anyways, I'm interested to see where they go with this....
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Old 11-24-01, 06:04 PM
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I found it to be 100% of who Spike is. The Spike we've seen over the last few months is one who's been making due with his situation. He's in love with Buffy, but he's also evil and always will be.

Also, on a side note, it wouldn't have mattered if he noticed the diamond. He didn't know it had been stolen. Willow said they were withholding that bit of info. I don't recall Buffy mentioning the diamond to Spike.
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Old 11-24-01, 08:03 PM
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Originally posted by MrN
I think Spike is and always has been 'evil' - but he's in love with Buffy. I don't think those two things are inconsistent. He'll do anything for her if it'll get him in her pants (and did he!!!)

I agree that his evil nature and the fact that he is in love with Buffy are not patently inconsistent. I just feel the way he has been written is inconsistent. In some episodes it seems like he really cares about Buffy and in others it is based more on sexual attraction/desire like you mentioned.

If Spike was in love with her, if he cared for her, he would not revel in the fact that she came back "wrong." I just found this to be at odds with the way Spike was written earlier this season.

The character of Spike is very complex, especially now. I'm sure he's torn between his vampire nature and his emotions and that's where the inconsistency lies. I just think it could have been handled a little better.
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Old 11-24-01, 08:11 PM
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Seems to me that sometimes the insecurities of William (former name of Spike) comes to the fore, but with the mantle of being a vampire, so the 2 personas don't quite mesh, and sometimes produces confounding inconsistencies out of Spike, especially when he's in love with girls who become the object of his desire. After getting to see that Season 5 episode featuring Spike's "origin" story, I now get why Spike gets so insecure in his love life (real or fantastical). He seems to never think he's "good" enough for the girls he's attracted to, and women, on the whole, smell his insecurities and after a while, get put off by it.

Let's face it, Spike's a charter member of the Nancy tribe.
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Old 11-24-01, 10:17 PM
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Consider this:

Spike is used to being in control, to being the Big Bad. But he’s been rendered impotent by the chip. He’s not too happy about that, but there’s nothing to be done.

He’s lost the control he once had…

…and surrenders it to Buffy, who is the one person who comes close to being his equal. This isn’t necessarily love, but it’s the only word he (and we) can pin on it.

Fast forward. Now he thinks the chip isn’t working. Does he reflect on his choices between good and evil? Does he test his theory by smacking someone else to see what happens? No. He immediately goes out with the intent of feeding. (Is it a coincidence that a woman is his first intended victim? Is this an implied rape?)

Well, that didn’t work. He’s still not the Big Bad. But he can regain his control over the slayer, so he calls her out. Notice it’s not a request. And he calls her Slayer, not Buffy.

And he “conquers” her. Waves crashing on the beach. Fireworks exploding.

House crashing down around them…

Classic.
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Old 11-25-01, 04:53 AM
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I admit I haven't seen the episodes, bear that in mind, but what Spike did sounds like more of a personal male ego problem than a vampire one.

Spike's a joke among the Scooby gang, then suddenly he's powerful again, it surely makes perfect sense that the first thing he'd do is try to prove himself to the woman he loved who thinks of him as a dork.

I think he'd do it to try and get some respect , but more importantly to see if it changed Buffy's feelings for him, which aparrently it did if only for a short time.
Hope you don't mind me speculating on this thread when I haven't seen the ep., but I love Spike and just wanted to express an opinion.
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Old 11-25-01, 11:52 AM
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Being a vampire means you are demonically possessed by that vampire side, it takes over... It behaves in such a way, that a persons cruelty, selfishness, and animalistic, evil nature are amplified- the demonic side changes you.

Spike gets a chip in his head, and is unalbe to fully express that demonic side, effectively nuetering the worst of it, and the rest of the demonic nature begins to degrade since he cant cut wild, and his humaity creeps back up.

While still a demon, he has tender feelings, exposes them to Buffy, gets jerked around by Buffy, so the first chance his very dormant demnic side gets to cut loose, he jumps on it. You see, his evil side hasnt gone off in so long, that when he realised he could whith Buffy, the demonic side took over the human (sniveling love puppy Wiliiam) side more, making him cruel. But, of course, he still is divided between the two. Sure he loves Buffy, but that doesnt mean he wont play on her weaknesses either, because he was never fully human anyway.
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Old 11-25-01, 01:20 PM
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Originally posted by Slumbering Fist

While still a demon, he has tender feelings, exposes them to Buffy, gets jerked around by Buffy, so the first chance his very dormant demnic side gets to cut loose, he jumps on it. You see, his evil side hasnt gone off in so long, that when he realised he could whith Buffy, the demonic side took over the human (sniveling love puppy Wiliiam) side more, making him cruel. But, of course, he still is divided between the two. Sure he loves Buffy, but that doesnt mean he wont play on her weaknesses either, because he was never fully human anyway.
Good point. That's the best explanation I've heard.
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Old 11-26-01, 12:25 PM
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I guess one of the big discussions about the Big Bad on Buffy thes season- Is it DarkWillow? Is it, now, possibly Spike? The Nerds of Doom? Something we havent seen yet? Or is there no Big Bad?

Anyway, my mind kicked around a wild theory, or just something interesting. Even though there is only a 1 in a billion chance they would do something like this, I'm going to state it anyway. Since Buffy always takes a fantasy cliche and makes it neat, what about?- Buffy is resurrected wrong. Something from the alternate afterlife tainted her, so what they end up doing, is removing the thing or something, making an alternate Buffy that she must fight. So, they could exploit the old Star Trek doppleganger idea.

Okay, I admit it, I just want to see two sweaty Buffy's wrestling around. There are you Happy? Hey, its Monday, I'm bored.
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Old 11-26-01, 12:40 PM
  #70  
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I was actually thinking the same thing, Fist.

Reminds of the X-Men story where Phoenix was reborn.

The other possibility is that two or more of these stories are going to converge. Maybe Dark Willow will get along with the nerds and take Spike along? Maybe not.
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Old 11-26-01, 01:33 PM
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Originally posted by MrN
Maybe Dark Willow will get along with the nerds and take Spike along? Maybe not.
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Old 11-26-01, 02:13 PM
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So I take it that there's no way Amy could be the Big Bad (tm) for season 6?
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Old 11-26-01, 02:28 PM
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I'm wondering if the Geek Trio wind up either nuetralizing Spike's Chip, or removing it. Amy and Spike could team up. Or Amy and Willow could as well. I think it's going to be a combination of the things we're seeing now.

Also, I would not rule out something more with Buffy. She did come back differently. It almost appears as though this season is about everyone dealing with their own darkness. If you take each of the Geek Trio separately, they're not all that dangerous. Warren, aka Robot Boy, is arrogant and really doesn't feel like he has to work for what he gets. He's more or less leading the others. Jonathan, was grateful to Buffy for keeping him from killing himself. And the other geek, is just along for the ride. His brother was the one who did the Prom Hellhounds. Individually they're not dangerous and notice they all want Buffy preoccupied. They never said they wanted her dead. They could cause problems, but it could vary on how serious a threat they are. Bottom line, if something nasty came along that they couldn't handle, they would run to the Slayer really fast.

It's fun to debate this and then see how close we are as the season unfolds. I'm not going to completely rule out Amy or Dark Willow yet.
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Old 11-27-01, 08:53 AM
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Axe the geek trio

I second (third?) the motion to axe the geek trio. Those guys are really annoying.
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Old 11-27-01, 09:54 AM
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I think mainly that they are really not doing much of ANYTHING this season (the geeks) and they don't feel the least bit threatening to anyone, just merely mysterious. Buffy, would take them down in a heartbeat. Plus, they have waaaay to many vunerablilities. All someone would need to do is ransack their house and they'd be severely crushed mentally
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