Hal2000

I think your vent is not particularly crazy.

I've been following this thread because I will lose $160 of Flooz orders, but I don't have time to fight with them. I called a couple of times, asked for a supervisor, and received this all-time classic response:

He's left the building; can I have him call you back?

I actually laughed at the CSR, delivered an expletive, and continued with life.

I also sent a few emails and got the canned response LBPound23 posted above.

I know corporate scumbags when I smell them, and this really reeks. Anybody who actually receives merchandise will be in a distinct minority.

Therefore, I recommend unleashing the power of the press, the BBB and the consumer affairs division of your state's attorney generals office.

Call your local TV stations, newspapers and radio stations. They love dot-com nightmare stories. Geoff, if you are reading this, get your pals at ABC to put you on TV again. You looked great a year ago when Scamazon was caught in their variable-pricing trick.

Be sure to complain to BBB and see if you can get some action from your state's attorney general's office. You have to fill out and mail in a form. Sometimes this works well. I keep seeing the Michigan Attorney General catching B&M retailers with scanning problems at checkout.

I believe that all that is left is the power of the consumer to expose B&N for the thieves that they are.



Let's all make sure B&N loses more in PR than they gain from screwing Flooz customers.

jiggyblau

YES!!!

We shall unite again and reign supreme! We are the customers! We are, by definition, right!

Hal2000 is very right. We can make them pay. Let's do what we know we can do. We have the Hoc front, and I hope that's going well. We can use Planet Feedback and the BBB. Unfortunately, I'm busy with getting ready to go back to school, or I would be visiting B&N.com corporate HQ, which I believe is in NJ. If anyone is nearby, go pay a visit. I encourage everyone else to listen to Hal2000's ideas. Let's get to work.

And that line about leaving the building....my God, what are they smoking? This company only gets worse. Whether they realize it or not, they're ruining the once good name of Barnes&Noble.

MonkeyG

Perhaps someone more eloquent than I/me (see my grammar is horrible) could send an email to Pud at [email protected], if he hears of our plight and decides to include it in his newsletter, it goes out to 65,000 subscribers including alot of powerful personalities within the internet/tech/business sector. Anyone?

edlin303

Haven't seen any posts lately from Hoc. Any news?

hokievt

One option we may need to check into is to file a complaint with the FTC. See this site:
FTC alert on Etailers

It talks about etailers for holiday shopping, but the general idea is the same.

Edit:
One more thing: the FTC will not take action unless it sees a pattern. So, the more responses the FTC gets, the more likely they will look into the matter.

Don Catchpole

Good idea, that's one complaint filed. Hope they get many more.

LBPound

another complaint lodged. (I received another BS email from B & N today). i haven't checked planetfeedback lately, but i hope you're all posting there too.

tthorn

Saw this and had to post it - it's not just DVD Talkers with this problem... (by the way, why is he spending $25 on only ONE DVD? I'm shocked.)


THESTREET.COM
You Flooz, You Lose
By Eric Gillin
Staff Reporter
8/24/01 12:06 PM ET

The headline says it all, but it's a lesson I had to learn the hard way.

On Aug. 1, one of my loveably misguided friends sent me $25 of Flooz, online Web dollars that can be redeemed for goods at many Web outlets like BarnesandNoble.com. Weeks later, that $25 gift certificate is worth less than Confederate dollars in 1866.

The whole miserable experience unfolded when I tried to spend my $25. Torn between The Dirt, a behind-the-scenes tell-all of Motley Crue's heyday in the '80s, and a DVD of Goodfellas, I settled on the blood-soaked Scorsese classic and went to Barnes and Noble's virtual bookstore.

I searched, selected and added to my cart. I checked the Flooz box as my form of payment. I entered my 16-digit Flooz code number. I clicked "Go." I waited a few minutes. And then BarnesandNoble.com told me the Flooz system was down.

Boy, was that an understatement. The Flooz system was out. As a journalist and an unhappy customer, I wanted to get to the bottom of what would become of my Flooz money. Below is a journal of my travails.

Monday, Aug. 13

After visiting Flooz.com, I learn that this is Whoopi Goldberg's Internet venture. My stomach turns. I'd rather watch every episode of Full House with Libyan terrorists than sit through one of Whoopi's films. This is an omen.

The site says: "We are currently unable to process your transaction. We are working very hard to resume Flooz.com Web site operations. Check back for further updates."

I call Flooz. The phone rings four times before the recording picks up and I head off to customer service, where it rings 5 times before I am asked to leave a message. I do. Perturbed, I call back and get the extension for Robert Levitan, Flooz's CEO. Again, I leave a message.

Searching the news wires, I discover that on Friday, Aug. 10 -- just nine days after my friend sent me the gift -- the company announced it suspended operations and was looking for a merger partner. I am outta luck.

Just then, Levitan calls back. "We asked retail partners to take it down as a form of payment while doing discussions," he says. "We thought it was in best interest of all our customers to take down the site."

The nonsense detector in my head explodes: "If I can't spend my Flooz, then how is that in my best interest?"

"We're at a delicate place here, Eric. I can't comment further," he says, sounding disappointed that he can't help me more. He's busy trying to save the company on the other end and my $25 problem, although important, pales in comparison to his larger issues.

Suddenly, I feel bad for him. He's doing his own customer service now. At least he called me back and said he'd contact me as soon as he knows more.

Tuesday, Aug. 14

I receive no messages. Think about harassing Levitan but don't. Check Flooz.com and realize it's still down. At least I went out and bought Goodfellas at The Wiz.

Wednesday, Aug. 15

Still no Flooz.com.

I check later in the afternoon. I notice an email address: [email protected]. Had it been there the entire time? I eagerly await the automated response after sending them this:

"I got a $25 Flooz for my birthday on Aug. 1. Now it doesn't work at all. What do I do? Thanks, Eric"

Thursday, Aug. 16

Nothing. So much for automated responses.

Friday, Aug. 17

My ex-girlfriend, an old college roommate and a work acquaintance all email today. Flooz still hasn't. I'm beginning to think that the phrase "check back for further updates" is an attempt to nudge up page views.

Monday, Aug. 20

Levitan picks up after a ring. I update him on the situation, and how "[email protected]" doesn't really seem to care about customers.

"You should be getting a reply back. I'll look into that," he says. "We'll be making comments very soon."

Tuesday, Aug. 21

I didn't even look. I know nothing's different.

Wednesday, Aug. 22

I look. Nothing is different.

Thursday, Aug. 23

The site's blurb only reads: "We are currently unable to process your transaction. Check back for further updates."
Left a message for Levitan that I'm going public with my travails.
This story isn't over. I'm going to keep after Levitan and the rest of the Floozies to get my $25 back. But there's a lesson in this. And I have no idea what it is.


Flooz.com is located here in Manhattan at 145 W. 45th St. Ste. 603. Maybe I should pay a visit and ask them what it is.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If you wish to contribute to the "Get Eric His $25 Flooz Birthday Gift Back" cause, please send heartfelt letters, photos and other sundries to [email protected].

The Street.com

shandrew

I like the new bit they've added to the BN.com flooz letter: "Flooz dollars are not real money."

If you ever place an order with BN.com, maybe you should get the credit card company to reverse charges and tell them "Credit card dollars are not real money."



Here it is:



Dear Customer:



We received your email regarding your order #BNXXXXXXXXXX. Flooz dollars

are not real money. When you purchase something with Flooz dollars,

Flooz reserves Flooz dollars from your account to pay for the

merchandise after the merchandise is shipped. Flooz.com, Inc does not

actually transfer any real monies to the seller until after the

merchandise is shipped. As your order was not shipped, no actual

currency was sent from Flooz.com, Inc to Barnes & Noble.com.



Regrettably, Flooz.com, Inc is no longer honoring their obligations,

which therefore has required Barnes & Noble.com to stop accepting Flooz

dollars as payment for orders; and to halt processing on all existing

orders which utilized Flooz dollars. Open orders placed with Flooz

dollars have been suspended and currently appear as "In Process" under

the Order Status. Suspended orders will be canceled on or after August

24, 2001 unless reinstated by the customer.



You may reinstate your order by authorizing another form of payment

(such as Credit Card or Gift Certificate). You can call us at

1-800-THE-BOOK (1-800-843-2665) Monday-Friday between 8am and 5pm EST

and ask to speak with a Special Payment Processing Customer Service

Representative. If you live outside the US please call 201-272-3651.



If you prefer to reinstate your order via email, please send your order

number, credit card number, expiration date, and billing address to

[email protected].



Your unused Flooz dollars will be unreserved in your Flooz account, and

will be available for you if and when Flooz.com, Inc resumes business.

It is unlikely however that Barnes & Noble.com will be able to honor

Flooz dollars again in the future.



Any questions or concerns regarding your Flooz.com, Inc account should

be addressed to [email protected].



Please accept our sincerest apologies for any inconvenience this may

have caused you and we appreciate your understanding that these

circumstances were beyond our control.



We offer you around-the-clock support. Simply e-mail us at

[email protected] or call 1-800-The-Book (1-800-843-2665). If you are

calling from outside the United States, dial 201-272-3651.



Your business is important to us. Please visit us soon at www.bn.com.



Sincerely,



George B.



Customer Service Representative

Barnes & Noble.com

1-800-THE-BOOK

AOL Keyword: bn

http://www.bn.com

gmand

Well, I seem to have been luckier than some people here. I first called and complained about my order being cancelled on Wednesday, August 22. The first CSR I talked to tried to give me the standard tale of how Flooz is not really taken from the account, etc., but after I requested a supervisor, I was told to call Special Payments. The guy I talked to there told me right away "since you are a valued customer, we will honor your order", and half an hour later I received a confirmation email with a new order number. Now I ordered books with my Flooz, and one of the books misteriously had gone out of stock and so it wasn't included in the new order. I called the same guy on the next day, and he agreed to add two new books to substitute the one out of stock. Not only that, but they paid for all of it, so I wasn't charged the extra $3-$4 on top of my $50 Flooz. Also, all orders were shipped 3 days select (instead of the free ground shipping) -- I have the tracking numbers and expect them on Monday. After reading all the horor stories here, I wonder if I didn't stumble on the only decent person at their customer service.

Rider69

Did you happen to get his name? And extension? Maybe an email address?

bbemployee

i could be way off here, but if i were him, i wouldn't post his name and number...not because I would want the only good outcome, but because this man at B&N will be forced into a predicament that he would never be able to do that for all the hundreds or thousands of people who would want it. Things like this should be handled on an individual basis, and not just blindly handing over what amounts to free $50 orders to anyone who used flooz and doesn't want to be "ripped off" from their free order

gmand

I have his name and extension, but I am not sure whether it's appropriate to post them here, as bbemployee observed. My email is [email protected], I'll reply to email requests for name/extension, and may post them later here.

Dr_Evil

I would advise against this. I gave out the email of a Barnes and Noble supervisor who had helped get my order through to the people of the forum through email and received a call the next day from him saying that he could not help these other people and to please not give his address out anymore. I would assume something similar would happen in your case. If you want to avoid a call from a pissed off B&N supervisor (like they're the ones who should be pissed ) I would advise against giving out any contact information.

DougL

You may be interested in reading the story on the front page of the Business Section of the New York Times this morning, August 27, entitled "Seller of Online Currency May Have Been Victim of Fraud." It says that Flooz was done in by credit card number thieves working out of Russia. From what the story suggests, Flooz is gone for good.

fantasia

Heres the article:

August 27, 2001

E-COMMERCE REPORT

Seller of Online Currency May Have Been Victim of Fraud

By BOB TEDESCHI

Flooz.com, a purveyor of online currency used as electronic gift certificates, officially ceased operations over the weekend, according to its chief executive, Robert Levitan. It fell victim to a softening economy and a sour investment atmosphere. But Internet fraud may have sped its demise, a person close to the company said.

The company, this person said, had unknowingly sold $300,000 of its currency, known as flooz, over the last three months to a ring of credit card thieves in Russia and the Philippines, before being alerted by the F.B.I. (A spokesman for the F.B.I., citing the bureau's policy, declined to say whether it was investigating.)

Stolen credit card numbers were used online to buy the flooz currency, which, until recently, could be used as gift certificates at about 30 retail Web sites, including those of J. Crew, Barnes & Noble (news/quote) and Tower Records. Flooz.com's credit card processing company, which Flooz.com executives would not identify, also alerted the company about the fraud, after the Flooz.com charges showed up on the monthly statements of people whose credit cards, or card numbers, had been stolen.

To cover any future refund requests from those credit card customers, the processor withheld daily reimbursements to Flooz.com from credit card sales and froze other accounts until it held $1 million of Flooz.com's money by the second week of August, the person close to the company said. Because customers were still redeeming thousands of dollars' worth of flooz daily at online merchants, "it created an untenable cash flow situation," the person said.

Flooz.com, which is privately held, said on Friday that it would close operations and file for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection. Robert Levitan, Flooz's chief executive, declined to comment on whether credit-card fraud had been detected.

In an interview late last week, he said the company began struggling earlier this year after cuts in spending by its biggest corporate clients, which had formerly bought flooz to use as awards in employee incentive programs. He declined to identify those clients.

Mr. Levitan said that until last week company executives had hoped to find a buyer capable of reviving the Web site. "We were trying very hard to satisfy all of our constituencies," he said, "but we could not continue the business in these challenging economic times."

Mr. Levitan would not say how many people own flooz currency, but given the company's sales history, that number is almost certainly in the thousands. Depending on how and when they paid for the currency, customers who have not redeemed it may not be able to get a refund from their credit card issuers. Merchants stopped accepting the currency in early August, when Flooz.com informed them that it had suspended its Web site operations.

Flooz.com's problems reflect the difficulty of creating a successful online currency — a point that Beenz.com, another company with its own Internet scrip, underscored last week when it, too, suspended operations. But Flooz.com's troubles also reflect the fragility of credit arrangements for e-commerce businesses that lack a deep well of cash.

And last week, the Internet retailer Buy.com filed documents with the Securities and Exchange Commission saying the company may have to close its operations if it cannot find a replacement for its current credit card processor. On Friday, however, the company said it had renewed agreements with major credit card companies and would continue in business as usual.

James Van Dyke, an analyst with Jupiter Media Metrix (news/quote), said Internet businesses already paid higher credit card fees than did their traditional counterparts. The higher fees, he said, reflect the higher risk to the processor of doing business with unstable e-commerce companies, as well as the increased risk in serving customers whose true identities are nearly impossible to discern online.

When a retailer is fiscally strained — as is Buy.com, which recently lost its Nasdaq listing — credit card processors are naturally wary that the business will shut down and leave behind a long list of creditors in a bankruptcy proceeding.

When fraud hits, Mr. Van Dyke said, it is also typical for banks to protect themselves by tightening credit terms with the merchant. Without a patient and deep-pocketed set of investors to provide enough cash to survive through a crisis — something almost unheard of in today's Internet circles — "the merchant can really get soaked," Mr. Van Dyke said.

The fastest-growing method of Internet fraud, Mr. Van Dyke said, involves credit cards and credit card numbers stolen by thieves in Eastern Europe and Russia. Such thieves, he said, "pay 100 brilliant computer programmers $15,000 a year — if they're lucky — to sit there and bang away" at an e-tailer's site, buying goods. "They'll make it look like they're coming to the site through a U.S. router somewhere, so the credit card processors don't pick up on it."

After the goods are received by confederates in the United States or shipped abroad, they "end up on a boat dock in Russia, where the stuff is sold for pennies on the dollar," Mr. Van Dyke said, and adding, "Then, when the merchant finds out about the fraud, not only will the credit card companies charge them back for that amount, but they've already lost the merchandise."

Flooz.com, which provided a currency that a credit card thief could buy and use like cash online, in some ways gave thieves greater liquidity.

And notably, the merchants that conducted business in flooz currency were largely protected from the credit card chargebacks because Flooz.com guaranteed to pay the merchants for all purchases, legitimate or otherwise.

Flooz achieved notoriety through an advertising campaign featuring Whoopi Goldberg that began in September 1999. The company raised more than $35 million in venture capital and persuaded dozens of merchants to accept its currency. A fair number of consumers bought into the concept as well: the business sold $3 million of flooz currency in 1999 and $25 million in 2000.

Nearly lost in the Flooz.com news, meanwhile, was the fact that Beenz.com also suspended its operations. Beenz.com, based in New York, had been operating as an online rewards company since early 1999 and had raised $86 million in financing, according to Charles Cohen, the company's former chief executive, who was interviewed by telephone in London, where he is based.

Rather than buying the company's currency, known as beenz, to redeem on another site, as with flooz, customers earned beenz by spending money or time on certain sites, like MP3.com (news/quote) and the British version of the Excite portal. They could then spend the currency at e-commerce sites that had agreed to accept it. (Customers could even buy flooz with their beenz.)

Almost six million people had earned or redeemed beenz, Mr. Cohen said. But because the company made money selling the currency to online retailers, he said, "our customer base collapsed" as many e- tailers folded.

Nonetheless, Mr. Cohen insisted the prospects for an Internet currency remained good. "Not only is it possible, but it is inevitable," he said. "Upon reflection, it seems the vehicle for this is more likely the financial institutions, since banks know how to make money out of money."

Mr. Cohen said Beenz.com had engaged banks in such discussions. "But they're slow and cumbersome beasts," he said. "We didn't have time to conclude the conversations."

To some analysts, the passing of beenz and flooz will barely be felt. "I put them one notch below gift certificates," said Carrie Johnson, an analyst with Forrester Research (news/quote). "And from the beginning, only about 5 percent of online consumers have bought gift certificates."

But for some merchants, the failure of Flooz.com, in particular, is a loss worth mourning. "It'll definitely hurt us, and it'll hurt e-commerce as a whole," said Russ Eisenman, director of marketing for TowerRecords.com.

Mr. Eisenman said the flooz currency was particularly useful in introducing new shoppers to the Web because purchases made with the currency did not require a credit card and they typically involved well-known merchants.

As for the effect on TowerRecords.com, Mr. Eisenman said that on some days last January, gift recipients redeeming flooz made up half the site's business. There will be no such Christmas in January next year. "I had to change my holiday projections based on them not being around," Mr. Eisenman said. "It'll definitely be a blow to us."

moocher

Interesting notes about Tower in that article. Despite the fact that Flooz "officially" closed its doors today, I received a shipping confirmation for an order placed with Tower using Flooz. They could have pulled a "BN" and cancelled but they obviously feel more of a moral obligation to their customers...

LBPound

Me too. to Tower and I got a refund on the American Greetings, so while I'll have to re-purchase The Godfather Collection, you can sure as hell bet it won't be through B & N, those scumsucking frauds.

jiggyblau

Well put!!!

chanster

LB, it isn't a moral obligation. IT is a business obligation. We entered into a contract with BN.com. They accepted the terms (just like we have to accept terms) and they took a form of payment from us.
Anything after that fact is between Flooz and BN. It is not my problem they made poor business decisions.
BUT A CONTRACT IS A CONTRACT. They know that, and that is why some people have been succesful in getting their product shipped. Businesses don't work on morals, they work on laws and economics.
The law protects us from this kind of stuff, obviously BN is betting that no one will follow up and try to enforce it.

dvd-fisherman

This is utterly hopeless.

murpm3

This is so stupid...I never got any of them to reinstate my order...But just now I get a email saying my last DVD shipped.

They said it would get cancelled a few weeks ago but never did. I dont think BN.com has their act together.

Has anyone that ordered the GodFather actually had theirs cancelled????

I know in the email that BN says it will say "IN PROGRESS" but they say it was actually cancelled. Maybe the rest of you will get lucky.

Now I am waiting for a phone call saying they couldnt charge the Flooz and they need to bill my credit card more money....I used a 1 time use number.

GUESS WHAT>>>If I get that call I am gonna give a big F- You to the person and I will read verbatim their crap lines about how they dont deduct Flooz from your account until it ships....I will just say...Well you guys frickin shipped so it must have been charged.

I am not shopping with them again, even though I ended up getting my DVDs. I will never support a business that doesnt remotely try to help me out as a consumer. Amazon has my regular business because they have always been quick to solve a problem if there has been one.

Good luck.

KingFunk

RANT:

Well Wonka, which I preordered (before the whole P&S fiasco occured), will come out tomorrow and no shipped message for me. Instead I received a message from "Hope Mansfield" stating

We have received your email concerning your order, ORDER # xxxxxxxx

We understand that Flooz's bankruptcy has resulted in your order being unfilled.

We do not process payments for orders until they are shipped. Your order for “Simpsons: Season 1” and “Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory” did not ship, so Flooz funds were not deducted from your Flooz account for this item. Flooz placed a temporary hold on these funds when you submitted your order. Barnes & Noble.com did not receive payment from Flooz for your unshipped order.

We are aware of the frustration that has been caused to many of our customers due to the demise of Flooz, and regret the disappointment that you have experienced. We hope to be given the opportunity to serve you again in the future.

So if the name isn't enough irony of this whole thing, I thought the letter ending with "we hope to be given the opportunity to serve you again" was just the perfect send off to my closing any bussiness ties with B&N. They just don't seem to care. I am sure they will love my heartfelt response to this message, if they actually read the messages instead of just reply with a generic letter.

/RANT

jonathan.e

This has long since ceased to be bargain related especially in light of Flooz’s bankruptcy and I can also tell you from bitter experience that when a company declares bankruptcy or "protection from their creditors" (nice phrase) you have zero chance of getting anythng out of them (tax people and the banks will pick over the bones) and by further implication B&N will not make good on Flooz debts.

Moving this to the store forum.

murpm3

That is something else...Being I also ordered Wonka and it got shipped.

I have a suspicion that if a DVD was shipped before the whole Flooz fiasco that it automatically kept the order open in their system....Regardless if the Flooz was charged.

So I guess maybe I was lucky for once...Maybe others will get lucky too!

I will never step into B&N.com or brick store ever again.