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Has the business of Hollywood made audiences jaded?

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Has the business of Hollywood made audiences jaded?

Old 01-05-22, 08:28 AM
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Re: Has the business of Hollywood made audiences jaded?

Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
The issue is finding them. I read this board religiously for finding upcoming films I'd like to watch and I know there's tons out there I would love but I have no clue they exist. I've got a pretty sweet home theater setup and would generally much rather watch something at home rather than go out to the cinema, but there's just so many channels to navigate and filter out the good from the shit. Used to, I could review the movies that came out in the theater each month and make a list of what I want to watch once it hit home video. Now with Hulu, Amazon, Netflix, Disney, Apple, Paramount +, HBO, Showtime, and whoever else all making movies, I really have no clue what's new and what's good.
I hope you aren't using DVDTalk as your only resource to find out about upcoming films.
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Old 01-05-22, 08:56 AM
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Re: Has the business of Hollywood made audiences jaded?

Originally Posted by Giantrobo View Post
One thing that has contributed to this is the Internet has made EVERYONE believe they're a Published Critic who should be listened too.
How much different is hundreds (or thousands) of semi-anonymous film critics online, compared to the quality of professional film critics like Siskel & Ebert (for example) and/or the semi-faceless film critics writing in local / regional newspapers back in the day ?
Old 01-05-22, 09:01 AM
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Re: Has the business of Hollywood made audiences jaded?

Originally Posted by morriscroy View Post
How much different is hundreds (or thousands) of semi-anonymous film critics online, compared to the quality of professional film critics like Siskel & Ebert (for example) and/or the semi-faceless film critics writing in local / regional newspapers back in the day ?
I do think there are a lot of "critics" now who really only review "genre" work, which is a huge red flag for me if I notice that's exclusively their oeuvre.
Old 01-05-22, 09:11 AM
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Re: Has the business of Hollywood made audiences jaded?

Originally Posted by dex14 View Post
I hope you aren't using DVDTalk as your only resource to find out about upcoming films.
Eh, it was a lot better when there was more traffic. But it's very nice to know the personalities of the posters to go along with the reviews, and that there is no compensation affecting people's opinions of movies here versus other places online.
Old 01-05-22, 09:17 AM
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Re: Has the business of Hollywood made audiences jaded?

Originally Posted by IBJoel View Post
I take exception to the idea of griping about blockbusters. Those in particular have narrowed considerably. Nancy Meyers films would no longer be released as blockbusters, for instance, and there are fewer Oscar-contenders that make the top grosses of the year (if any in the past 10 years). Hell even Roland Emmerich's latest is relegated to a February release.
I guess Iíd say thereís (at least) three ways to look at it:
1) whatís getting made
2) whatís getting promoted/released theatrically
3) whatís getting watched

My post was intended to address people complaining about #1 & #3. I think weíre rich with options both in films and longer-form limited series/miniseries/series. I feel like a lot of people complain about stuff they donít like getting made or having success, as if that somehow is holding back stuff that they would like from being made. I just donít think thatís the case with the enormous amount of material being produced. I probably watch around 20 hours of films and/or shows a week and canít even begin to view everything that looks intriguing.

The complaints about #2 make more sense to me, as the theater provides a different viewing experience and I get why some people want to see specific movies they care about on the big screen. Personally, Iím lucky enough to have a decent home theater setup with a 10í screen and the only time Iíll venture into a theater anymore, even pre-pandemic, is if itís for something Iím really excited for that wonít be available for home viewing for a while.
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Old 01-05-22, 09:25 AM
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Re: Has the business of Hollywood made audiences jaded?

Originally Posted by rocket1312 View Post
Even fear of spoilers I find to be somewhat dubious. I get it, but spoilers are not exclusive to franchise films. Any movie can be spoiled. Franchise movies might be the only movies people talk about online and thus more likely to be spoiled, but even if everyone and their brother were talking about Licorice Pizza last week, I don't think everyone would suddenly be rushing to the theaters to avoid being spoiled.
I'm much more likely to encounter a No Way Home spoiler randomly on the internet than one for Licorice Pizza. But also, I have zero interest in Licorice Pizza - though I would be annoyed to read a spoiler in an article headline about that movie too. I'd actually say it for any movie but that's a huge reason I see the Marvel movies on opening weekend, because those are the movies with the kinds of surprises I want to see in the theater. I managed to dodge them all week but my son read a big No Way Home spoiler in an unrelated Reddit thread, which wouldn't have happened if we had gotten to see it opening weekend.
Old 01-05-22, 09:26 AM
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Re: Has the business of Hollywood made audiences jaded?

Originally Posted by IBJoel View Post
I do think there are a lot of "critics" now who really only review "genre" work, which is a huge red flag for me if I notice that's exclusively their oeuvre.
I mean, I can kind of get why you would want someone who is knowledgeable in the horror genre to review horror flicks and not rom-coms, for example, but generally speaking, I do agree with you here. A good critic should be able to tackle any genre.

I also think "review" is being far too kind in most cases. These people do barely more than a basic plot synopsis, a comment on the visual effects, and a or while sitting in front of a shelf full of toys and movies to prove they have credibility. It's nothing like what talented critics did or do, but if you criticize this Content(tm) then you're told that you're just jealous.
The essence of film criticism or critique beyond the surface level is lost on these content creators and influencers... but also their audiences. People seem to love to be spoon fed the plot of exactly what they just watched, and whether or not they should like it by someone they think they can identify with due to a misplaced parasocial relationship. They also seem to love when someone gathers up all the most upvoted reddit complaints, and shovels them into a 'skit' that can be easily consumed in 5-20 minutes.

Even worse, there's videos that are quite literally just text-to-speech plot summaries of movies over stock images. I read a profile on a famous Twitch streamer the other day (I knew nothing about this guy in advance, but the profile encapsulates the kind of always-on persona these people have to have in order to appease an audience that's always watching them), and he was talking about how he watches a couple of these a day when he's not streaming, then brags like "I've seen 10 movies this week" which.. uhh.. no. You really haven't.

sorry for the tangent
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Old 01-05-22, 09:43 AM
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Re: Has the business of Hollywood made audiences jaded?

Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
Eh, it was a lot better when there was more traffic. But it's very nice to know the personalities of the posters to go along with the reviews, and that there is no compensation affecting people's opinions of movies here versus other places online.
Iím not talking about discussion. I just mean there are other websites that are better resources to find out about new films and where they are being released.
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Old 01-05-22, 09:59 AM
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Re: Has the business of Hollywood made audiences jaded?

Originally Posted by Dan View Post
I also think "review" is being far too kind in most cases. These people do barely more than a basic plot synopsis, a comment on the visual effects, and a or while sitting in front of a shelf full of toys and movies to prove they have credibility. It's nothing like what talented critics did or do, but if you criticize this Content(tm) then you're told that you're just jealous.
I've found reading/watching such film reviews largely useless. Easier to just read a website like tvtropes that collates all the tropes used in a particular show/movie.

Originally Posted by Dan View Post
The essence of film criticism or critique beyond the surface level is lost on these content creators and influencers... but also their audiences.
What would be good examples of film criticism ?

Is this something that a "film studies" professor would be writing about ?
Old 01-05-22, 10:07 AM
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Re: Has the business of Hollywood made audiences jaded?

Originally Posted by morriscroy View Post
What would be good examples of film criticism ?
You may have hit on an interesting topic for a separate thread, but I want to come away from a review with a sense of what the movie tries to achieve, how it attempts to do so and how well it succeeds. Granted, movie reviews are only a subset of film criticism, but I think theyíre whatís being discussed here.
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Old 01-05-22, 10:31 AM
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Re: Has the business of Hollywood made audiences jaded?

Originally Posted by Dan View Post
These people do barely more than a basic plot synopsis, a comment on the visual effects, and a or while sitting in front of a shelf full of toys and movies to prove they have credibility. It's nothing like what talented critics did or do, but if you criticize this Content(tm) then you're told that you're just jealous.
...
Even worse, there's videos that are quite literally just text-to-speech plot summaries of movies over stock images.
I hate how accurate these points are
Old 01-05-22, 12:28 PM
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Re: Has the business of Hollywood made audiences jaded?

Originally Posted by maxfisher View Post
I guess Iíd say thereís (at least) three ways to look at it:
1) whatís getting made
2) whatís getting promoted/released theatrically
3) whatís getting watched

My post was intended to address people complaining about #1 & #3. I think weíre rich with options both in films and longer-form limited series/miniseries/series. I feel like a lot of people complain about stuff they donít like getting made or having success, as if that somehow is holding back stuff that they would like from being made. I just donít think thatís the case with the enormous amount of material being produced. I probably watch around 20 hours of films and/or shows a week and canít even begin to view everything that looks intriguing.

The complaints about #2 make more sense to me, as the theater provides a different viewing experience and I get why some people want to see specific movies they care about on the big screen. Personally, Iím lucky enough to have a decent home theater setup with a 10í screen and the only time Iíll venture into a theater anymore, even pre-pandemic, is if itís for something Iím really excited for that wonít be available for home viewing for a while.
I think you're missing one key point here. Movies and TV are different. They obviously share a lot of fundamental similarities, but they're still different formats with different strengths and weaknesses. Boiling that down even further, there's a difference between small budget movies and large budget movies. One isn't necessarily better or worse than the other, but there are differences. Yes, there's more content than ever, but as first and foremost a MOVIE fan, I have a lot of itches that aren't getting scratched.

Now, I'm not so entitled to think that my personal tastes should dictate the types of movies that get made, but I'm also not sure we as a culture haven't lost something along the way. There are myriad reasons why franchise films dominate the marketplace (some of them already touched upon in this thread), but I'm not convinced it's as simple as "that's what sells." Well I mean it is what sells, but how and why did we get to that point? It's not because they're the best movies. And I don't mean "not the best movies" in some sort of snooty critical way. I think that's part of what the OP was noticing. A lot of these franchises get lukewarm or even negative reactions. Yet it's still the only stuff anyone cares about or talks about.

So when I complain about franchises/blockbusters those are the kind of things I'm thinking about. Even if I were to answer some of my own questions, it's not like it will solve anything. But that's why we complain, right? There's literally nothing else to be done.
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Old 01-05-22, 12:59 PM
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Re: Has the business of Hollywood made audiences jaded?

Originally Posted by rocket1312 View Post
There are myriad reasons why franchise films dominate the marketplace (some of them already touched upon in this thread), but I'm not convinced it's as simple as "that's what sells." Well I mean it is what sells, but how and why did we get to that point?
Is there a possibility of this being the result of a long term "tail wagging the dog" and/or "astroturfing" type of marketing campaign ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astroturfing
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Old 01-05-22, 03:48 PM
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Re: Has the business of Hollywood made audiences jaded?

Franchises do a lot for the studio beyond simple theatrical revenues. There's merchandising, potential spin-offs, lowering talent costs, predictable box office results and more. It's also easier hiding the money laundering and graft in larger studio projects. A lot of Hollywood financing would be considered inappropriate in most corporate settings and often skirts the edge of legality.

Have you ever seen a blockbuster and come away thinking how did this cost $200 million? Surprise, it didn't actually cost $200 million. That's an accounting fiction cooked up by the studio.
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Old 01-05-22, 04:11 PM
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Re: Has the business of Hollywood made audiences jaded?

There's a few here who are pretty passionate movie-goers and maybe could offer some insights like pundits. But, I would say the majority here and it likely applies to most people simply don't care about the business of movies, IPs, blockbusters, theatre revenue streams and such. They see what they want to see and move on.

Before streaming and high speed internet, movies was a really valued experience. You see it in theaters, wait about 6 months and it gets released on VHS and then it hits premium cable and network TV. This lifespan goes over the course of a year or maybe a little longer.

Just my personal opinion, but the overall value of many movies has been greatly diminished now and a lot seem to think of movies as disposable, especially when it can be accessed with a few button clicks. And I see this mentioned so much...."Oh that's a not a theatre-quality movie, I can wait until it hits streaming" So what exactly is a "theatre-quality" movie?

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Old 01-05-22, 04:37 PM
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Re: Has the business of Hollywood made audiences jaded?

Originally Posted by DJariya View Post
Just my personal opinion, but the overall value of many movies has been greatly diminished now and a lot seem to think of movies as disposable, especially when it can be accessed with a few button clicks. And I see this mentioned so much...."Oh that's a not a theatre-quality movie, I can wait until it hits streaming" So what exactly is a "theatre-quality" movie?
You might be on to something here.

I think this started slightly earlier, with Napster and P2P networks destroying the market viability of the music cd format. It was inevitable digital online consumption (whether legal or illegal) with the click of a button, would eventually devalue movies and tv shows too.
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Old 01-05-22, 05:17 PM
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Re: Has the business of Hollywood made audiences jaded?

Originally Posted by DJariya View Post
ust my personal opinion, but the overall value of many movies has been greatly diminished now and a lot seem to think of movies as disposable, especially when it can be accessed with a few button clicks. And I see this mentioned so much...."Oh that's a not a theatre-quality movie, I can wait until it hits streaming" So what exactly is a "theatre-quality" movie?
Worth the expense. We all know the difference between a janky town carnival ride and the newest Disneyworld attraction. I view movies the same way. If I miss the town carnival, oh well. But I'd plan a whole trip around a Disney ride (which I did for Rise of the Resistance).

But this all comes down to taste - someone might pay $100 to see a great opera. You couldn't pay me $100 to sit through one. In general, the movie-going public seems to think that the biggest movies are worth seeing on the biggest screens. But some art house flick might not be worth the tickets and babysitter, even if it's great. With the blockbusters (especially the well-reviewed ones), at least you know you're seeing something you couldn't experience the same way at home.
Old 01-05-22, 05:53 PM
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Re: Has the business of Hollywood made audiences jaded?

Originally Posted by rocket1312 View Post
I think you're missing one key point here. Movies and TV are different. They obviously share a lot of fundamental similarities, but they're still different formats with different strengths and weaknesses. Boiling that down even further, there's a difference between small budget movies and large budget movies. One isn't necessarily better or worse than the other, but there are differences. Yes, there's more content than ever, but as first and foremost a MOVIE fan, I have a lot of itches that aren't getting scratched.
I completely recognize that films and television are different, but would also say that the line between them has blurred considerably in the past decade to where they fall more onto a continuum than into distinct categories.

That said, even entirely ignoring television content, weíre still getting record-breaking numbers of movies on an order of magnitude larger than several decades ago. I canít find an easy comparison on quantity broken down by budget or genre, but looking at the most expensive movies adjusted for inflation, theyíre almost all from the past 20 years. To me, blockbuster franchises feel additive to the whole output of cinema. They might be dominant in capturing discussion or attention, but I donít know what type of film theyíre supposed to have stopped from getting made in recent years.
Old 01-05-22, 09:54 PM
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Re: Has the business of Hollywood made audiences jaded?

Originally Posted by PhantomStranger View Post
Franchises do a lot for the studio beyond simple theatrical revenues. There's merchandising, potential spin-offs, lowering talent costs, predictable box office results and more. It's also easier hiding the money laundering and graft in larger studio projects. A lot of Hollywood financing would be considered inappropriate in most corporate settings and often skirts the edge of legality.

Have you ever seen a blockbuster and come away thinking how did this cost $200 million? Surprise, it didn't actually cost $200 million. That's an accounting fiction cooked up by the studio.
I think a lot of films DO cost more than what you'd expect based on what you see, because of the entire cost of development (sometimes upwards of a decade) to release. But definitely some films are inflated. Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix has ALLEGEDLY never turned a profit to this day, despite a nearly billion-dollar gross against a $200M budget.
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Old 01-06-22, 05:56 AM
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Re: Has the business of Hollywood made audiences jaded?

Originally Posted by DJariya View Post
There's a few here who are pretty passionate movie-goers and maybe could offer some insights like pundits. But, I would say the majority here and it likely applies to most people simply don't care about the business of movies, IPs, blockbusters, theatre revenue streams and such. They see what they want to see and move on.

Before streaming and high speed internet, movies was a really valued experience. You see it in theaters, wait about 6 months and it gets released on VHS and then it hits premium cable and network TV. This lifespan goes over the course of a year or maybe a little longer.

Just my personal opinion, but the overall value of many movies has been greatly diminished now and a lot seem to think of movies as disposable, especially when it can be accessed with a few button clicks. And I see this mentioned so much...."Oh that's a not a theatre-quality movie, I can wait until it hits streaming" So what exactly is a "theatre-quality" movie?
Before cable and home video there was an immediatcy to seeing a movie in the theater. An anxiety that this may be your only chance to ever see it. There was no guarantee that any movie would ever show up on tv. See it now or lose out forever. There were 7 James Bond movies before any showed up on tv. Ten years after the first one. In the 70s we went to every horror movie at the drive-in, even if freezing outside because stuff like Texas Chainsaw Massacre, Hills Have Eyes, Rabid, etc. would never be on tv.
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Old 01-06-22, 08:00 AM
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Re: Has the business of Hollywood made audiences jaded?

Originally Posted by rw2516 View Post
Before cable and home video there was an immediatcy to seeing a movie in the theater. An anxiety that this may be your only chance to ever see it. There was no guarantee that any movie would ever show up on tv. See it now or lose out forever. There were 7 James Bond movies before any showed up on tv. Ten years after the first one. In the 70s we went to every horror movie at the drive-in, even if freezing outside because stuff like Texas Chainsaw Massacre, Hills Have Eyes, Rabid, etc. would never be on tv.
I was a kid who rarely got to go to The Movies. Once I could drive I went to damned near near everything, -anything that looked halfway interesting - because I knew that might be my only chance to see a film unedited. Once any R-rated film got to Television it would be cut to pieces. When Home Video finally came along it was like a dream.
Old 01-06-22, 11:39 AM
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Re: Has the business of Hollywood made audiences jaded?

I do feel that this is a more recent trend than when home video wasn't very widespread. More of a result of the past couple of decades. Even in the 90s, I think audiences were a bit more forgiving and each movie was in the zeitgeist for more than a week.
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Old 01-06-22, 01:34 PM
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Re: Has the business of Hollywood made audiences jaded?

Originally Posted by IBJoel View Post
I do feel that this is a more recent trend than when home video wasn't very widespread. More of a result of the past couple of decades. Even in the 90s, I think audiences were a bit more forgiving and each movie was in the zeitgeist for more than a week.
It's the erosion of monoculture. Nothing stays in the zeitgeist for more than a week.
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Old 01-06-22, 01:57 PM
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Re: Has the business of Hollywood made audiences jaded?

Originally Posted by PhantomStranger View Post
The real answer is Hollywood's changing business model. The studios used to produce dozens of mid-level projects each year, which mostly made minor profits and occasionally produced real gems in different genres. It was a sweet spot that met both commercial and artistic demands, simultaneously allowing talented filmmakers and creatives the chance at making an unforgettable film. The example I'd list is Chinatown, if I am allowed to go that far back. $6 million budget. Hollywood makes far fewer mid-budget films like this today. Everything now is either programmed genre schlock made on the cheap or $200 million superhero movies.

What happened is that the MBAs running most studios noticed their actual profit margins are entirely driven by their biggest and most expensive films. I'm pretty sure Titanic's massive success was the final nail for smaller projects with small returns. It made no sense anymore to keep investing in mid-level projects when the ROI for the studio's cash was higher on blockbusters.

Once a film's budget gets over $100 million, good luck getting anything which hasn't been sliced and diced by large committees. There are just too many people giving input, making it nigh impossible to make a truly compelling blockbuster. I'll give Nolan credit, he's been given more latitude than just about any modern director in Hollywood and made some interesting blockbuster films despite these issues. I'm not sure how he does it, because almost no one else is today on a consistent basis.

The best scripted content coming out of Hollywood today are long--form shows running on premium channels and top streaming outlets. It's much harder for a studio to meddle on 12 hours of television than a two-hour movie.
I worked at Universal in the early 00s (in IT) and at a company meeting Ron Meyer said basically the same thing. Big pictures sometimes make big money. "Small" pictures keep the talent happy.

I'm still amused that GE bought Universal and thought 6 Sigma would work for making movies.

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Old 01-06-22, 05:46 PM
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Re: Has the business of Hollywood made audiences jaded?

Let me throw this out there: Save the Cat has had an outsized influence on screenwriting and is responsible for a fair amount of the unoriginality in the past 15 years.

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