GoldenJCJ

I supposed I can handle the Emperor’s plan for Kylo and Rey. It is somewhat convoluted but no more so than the Emperor’s plan for Luke in RotJ. “Strike me down with anger” nonsense.

What kills me is the piss poor execution of Kylo and Rey dying, bringing each other back to life, kissing etc. Kylo gave all his life power to Rey to bring her back, which I guess is fine since it was essentially foreshadowed the entire movie but he looked completely fine after he did it...until he keels over dead. They could have at least made him look like he was about to drop dead in a couple seconds.

And the kiss was wholly unnecessary. A hug would have been a lot more appropriate for those two characters who had never shared so much as a modicum of feelings for one another. A hug would have said so much more.

fujishig

When you're going all out for fanservice, might as well go all out (and then lie about it later so people don't get too mad).

GoldenJCJ

That’s exactly what it was. It’s just strange cause I just don’t seem to remember a lot of fans screaming that they wanted Rey and Ben to hook up. Maybe I’m not hanging out in the right forums.

It was like weird, manufactured fan service.

Josh-da-man

This just smacks of a movie constantly being retooled, rewritten, and reshoot on the fly. They literally didn't know how to end it, and were fishing around trying to find something that worked. And they didn't succeed.

Probably why they're hiding the deleted scenes.

And wasn't Matt Smith supposed to be in there somewhere, too?

rocket1312

This is a big reason why whenever anyone claims that the throne room stuff in Jedi is the best part of the original trilogy, I just smile and nod and walk the other direction. It all seems very dramatic, but it doesn't make any sense.

milo bloom

The strength of the throne room scenes in ROTJ is between Luke and Vader (because Anakin is starting to resurface). The emperor is just part of the background.
There's also the score in those scenes that really help set the mood.

Mike86

I think basically Palpatine viewed it as if Luke struck him down out of anger and hatred that would make him easier to turn. Either through Vader taking over as the master or possibly maybe even counting on Vader to stop Luke from killing him. Essentially he/the Sith would win either way. He may not be around to see it come to fruition (although who knows he maybe could have been brought back somehow just like this film found a way to do that), but his overall goal would be accomplished. His friends being killed would just fuel his anger more making him stronger with the Dark Side. At least that’s how he’s probably viewing it in that moment. So either the Sith would gain a strong ally by Luke’s turn or if he refuses to join he’ll be killed, which would have happened most likely if not for Vader’s turn. Maybe I'm off but I feel like some of that while not spelled out directly can be made sense of.

fujishig

Palpatine (without retroactively knowing that he had a way to come back) doesn't strike me as the kind of guy who would put Sith lineage above himself... he wants to be the one to see it through. I doubt he was actually willing to sacrifice himself.

I don't think Star Wars itself really holds itself up to much scrutiny, and I say that for the OT as well as the new trilogy, is what I'm trying to say, I guess.

The other thing I wanted to say re: Rey and Kylo: Rey knew well enough that in this series, you better make damned sure what your lineage is before you kiss someone and find out he's really your brother.

Mike86

I think looking at it now it’s easier to say that Palpatine may not be the kind of guy who wants to see things through and isn’t willing to sacrifice himself. When it was just the Original Trilogy though, we didn’t know shit about the guy. He’s just some evil bastard looking to take over the galaxy. Even if you take the prequels into account you can maybe buy that he may have been counting on cheating death.

Michael Corvin

That's what's been an eye opener with this trilogy. The OT has always just "been." It is what it is and was never really scrutinized like modern films. It's the trilogy most of us grew up with so everything was just accepted. Once people started pointing out all the flaws, plot holes, & contrivances in the Sequel Trilogy, then all of a sudden the OT got brought into the "over analyzing it" mix. You can't say "X is bad in The Last Jedi" but ignore the exact same plot point as it occured in the OT. Turns out the Holy Trilogy isn't as flawless as most like to believe and are full of the same plot holes, plot devices and contrivances as the newer films. They're just accepted, because.

Jay G.

Going back to ROTJ, before any of the other films were made, I thought 100% that Palpatine was not expecting to die when he was goading Luke to strike at him. Palpatine thought he had full control over Vader. It's why Vader's turn at the end catches Palpatine off guard.

Palpatine's plan was to either turn Luke, or kill him. To that end, goading Luke into taking up the lightsaber to actually attempt to fight was critical. Also, hate and anger are the path to the dark side, and using the dark side to kill seems to be a "point of no return," to everyone's understanding in that universe. Even Obi-Wan and Yoda think Vader can't be saved and must be killed. Vader's turn back to the light seemed like something unprecedented, which again is why Palpatine didn't expect Vader to sacrifice himself to kill Palpatine and save Luke. Palpatine was expecting that once Luke killed Vader, he'd be committed to the dark side, and so would either submit to Palpatine, or be destroyed, and knowing that due to dark side user's desire for self-preservation, would most likely submit. Luke's refusal to give into anger and submit meant that Luke had no change of succumbing to the "seductive" dark side, and so Palpatine immediately switched to killing Luke.

I do think that Lucas' view of the force seems simplistic, like flipping a light switch. Oops, I killed in anger, now I'm fully dark, like a domino effect. Hey, I did one good thing, I'm light again. Going past the OT, you see this with Anakin in ROTJ as well. Anakin is conflicted all the way up to tossing Mace Windu out the window to stop Mace from killing Palpatine. But immediately after that, Anakin is up for killing innocent children. It's just a very simplistic view of good and evil, where the good guys are ever virtuous, and the bad guys and in black and cackle maniacally.

Draven

Yep, the OT has a lot of the same issues but they are already accepted and rationalized by fans of those movies who grew up with them. So the new movies get torn to pieces while the OT gets a pass. I guarantee that kids growing up with the new trilogy don't overthink it either.

Though it is interesting how many people don't realize that they are looking at the OT through the lens of nostalgia or through rose-colored glasses.

rocket1312

I still don't think it tracks narratively. Again, it seems dramatic with the music and the heavy dialogue, but it doesn't really mean anything. But hey, people like what they like and that's fine.

fujishig

The main problem with this is that Luke, Rey, etc. kill plenty of people, and the fact that they aren't raised as emotionless Jedi means that they probably did it out of anger as well. Like those poor stormtroopers have a family. Heck, this trilogy even specifically points out that these are not just mindless soldiers and some of them are like kids stolen from their parents and indoctrinated. You just can't look too deep, I think.

Josh-da-man

Can't it also be that, yes, there are problems with the OT, but that was made decades ago, and the current crop of movies should be more conscious of making the same missteps?

It becomes just another case of the ST defenders claiming the ST can't be criticized or disliked. By that line of reasoning, the ST should be just as awful as the OT. Maybe you need to take off your rose-colored glasses.

But, ultimately, bringing up flaws in the OT when the ST is criticized is just a form of deflection to get the ST critics to defend the OT. It's just a pathetic rhetorical trick along the lines of "the previous president did it first."

Mike86

I’ve never claimed the Original Trilogy are flawless films. I just like them overall more. Is some of that nostalgia/rose colored glasses? Sure, maybe a bit.

I think there is a reason those films had the staying power they did though. I mean I’m not even a first generation fan. I was born in 1986 and didn’t see the films probably until sometime in the early nineties. So not a long time after, but probably at least a good ten years or so after the Original Trilogy ended.

mcnabb

Everyone I know who grew up with the OT admits that ROTJ is flawed and the weakest link of the Trilogy. I don't go by what people say on the internet as the law like so many do, I go by the people I encounter in life. Most of them would say the same things about ROTJ in that the Ewoks are lame, Luke/Leia siblings gives them the willies, Slave Leia was hot, Luke kicked ass, and the Throne Room scenes were some of the best of the Trilogy.

Star Wars 1977 and The Empire Strikes Back are considered two of the greatest films of their genre, how are people wearing rose-colored glasses? Sure you could nitpick any film, but there is a difference in the OT and the ST where they bring back Palpatine (I assume from the Dead or he's a Clone) and it is never explained in the movie! That's not nitpicking, that's the lead villain in the movie who supposedly died in ROTJ, and now is back for the new Trilogy and comes out of hiding 30 years later? I would agree with you that fans that nitpick about little things like the slow speed chase in TLJ, but that's internet crap that I tune out. I'm talking about big plot points and the main villain in the movie, and you can't even compare ROTJ and TROS in that respect.

brayzie

That can be said of the prequels too. My nephew is a big Star Wars fan, yet he thought TFA was "too funny" and was a little disappointed with TROS. Yet his favorite Star Wars movies aren't from the OT, they're from the prequel trilogy, in particular, Attack of the Clones.
So I guess the prequels aren't worthy of criticism either? The OT gets a pass, the ST gets a pass so...the PT should too, right?


I agree and think it's one of the weakest arguments for justifying flawed elements in a movie. If people were explicitly arguing that something like Leia and Luke suddenly being brother and sister at the last minute was a good reveal, but criticizing Rey suddenly being Palpatine's daughter as a bad reveal I can understand the defense of "rose-colored glasses/nostalgia pass/overthinking it." But how m any people here are arguing that making Luke and Leia twins was a good way to wrap up the loose ends from ESB?

fujishig

At least when I brought it up, it's because people seemed to be comparing the ROTJ emperor/vader/luke scene with the TROS emperor/kylo/rey scene, and I brought it up because both are kind of ridiculous.

brayzie

I think it's funny that the new Disney trilogy was touted as being so socially progressive: the lead is a strong woman, there's a more racially diverse cast, and even LGBTQ representation in the last 10 seconds of the film. Yet, they fall back on the Hollywood trope that the male and female leads have to fall in love. There was definitely a hint of something going on between Kylo and Rey in TLJ. But considering everything that transpired it didn't make sense for them to suddenly share a passionate kiss. I guess the only options for Rey and Kylo were to either hate each other, or be in love with each other. I think it would have been more sense, like you said, some kind of embrace that they both survived and stopped Palpatine.

What did JJ Abrams say about it? The only thing I got was an article where he's quoted as saying that it's not necessarily a romantic thing, but just as much a brother/sister thing, and that it's "complicated," which is definitely weird. Yeah, it was clearly fan service like the rest of the film, but I'm sure he's making up stuff to defend against any criticism. Rey/Kylo being a thing was criticized as fan service, as well as being an abusive relationship, so of course he doesn't want to look like he's playing into the latter. So, no, it's this complicated thing that I can't really explain, but you thought it was a romantic kiss? Weird, because actually, it's equally a brother/sister thing.

When the Finn/Poe shippers were upset that they didn't become a couple, and that instead the only gay representation in the film was a background character kissing another woman at the very end, JJ Abrams insisted that no, Finn and Poe are gay and they he wanted to portray them as being a romantic couple. Anything little thing can get blown up into some very bad publicity, so it's interesting to see how they handle it. It sounds like complete BS to me but when you have a huge property like this, and you want it to make sure it's everything to everyone this is the result. And in this case, they want to have their cake and eat it too. Finn and Poe are gay and are in love with each other. We just didn't depict it onscreen. See, we do believe in and support LTBGQ representation!

In my experience I've never come across anyone that says that the throne room stuff was the best part of the trilogy. Maybe the best part of ROTJ, and even then, it's always in reference to the scene when Luke suddenly rages out and starts dueling with Darth Vader and that John Williams score starts playing.

I've said it here many times that the Emperor's attempt to turn Luke to the dark side are just silly. "Yesssss...attack me...strike me down so you can take your father's place as my miserable servant..."
So...you're saying that if I strike you down, it not going to work and I'll just end up being a slave to you like my father. Yeah, I'm just going to do the opposite of what you want me to do.

Yoda described the path to the dark side as this great temptation, but it just comes across as stupid in ROTJ.

fujishig

No, that's what I'm referring to. If that was supposed to be a "sibling" kiss than he's as bad at directing couples as Lucas was except in the other extreme.

brayzie

No, I agree with your view on it. I was thinking the same thing. Both are pretty poor scenes, but it's slightly more believable in TROS because they go further to underline that Rey feels she has no choice, where, like you said, in ROTJ it's mostly a lot of, "kill me (but you won't be able to), so you can become my servant."

But even the TROS scene is pretty dumb because, Palpatine is saying that he'll destroy all of her friends and the whole Resistance unless she allows him, and all the other Sith spirits to take over her body. So Rey is like, sigh, okay, I'll do it to save my friends.
If Palpatine is about to kill her ALL of her friends and the entire Resistance, why would allowing Palpatine to take over her body prevent that? Obviously he's just going to do it anyway. Does he really look like an honorable person who lives up to his word?

fujishig

It was really dumb of him to reveal his plan. He should've just been like "bwah ha ha, I'm going to kill everyone" and then let her kill him without the exposition, but I guess for the sake of the audience we needed to hear his master plan. Like if your master plan is to have someone strike you down in anger, don't tell them, just make them angry. But again the same goes for the scene in ROTJ.

I initially took it like she would've had some say in how he behaved after her body was taken over but that may just be me trying to rationalize it, I've only seen it once and I'm waiting for it to come out on + before rewatching.

mcnabb

I won't back down that the TROS ending is much more ridiculous/over the top than the ROTJ. (And I'm not even the biggest ROTJ fan as I think the movie has some serious pacing issues especially in the middle when they meet the Ewoks). ROTJ Emperor wasn't shooting lightning into the sky at countless ships either, as that's another ridiculous/over the top thing that TROS Emperor did. Then you have Rey dying, Ben kissing her, and than Ben dying, which is much different than Anakin/Vader dying in Luke's arms after he was wounded and then electrocuted as he threw the Emperor down the shaft. Honestly, I don't see how you can't say that TROS ending way more over the top than ROTJ ending? If feels like JJ directed the scene and said, "Fuck it, I'm throwing everything in there but the kitchen sink as I want to please the OT fans, PT fans, ReyLo fans, etc!"

brayzie

Yes! That's exactly what I was thinking when watching it in the theater. She was about to kill him right? If killing him allows him and the Sith to take over her body, why doesn't Palpatine put up a fake fight, and then let himself get killed? Or maybe she has to kill in her anger for it to work? But if she's only doing it to save her friends, and it ends up prolonging Palpatine's life and not ACTUALLY killing him, then it's not in anger, right?


That's true, I do remember the film giving the impression that that's how it was supposed to go down. But even still, once you he's telling her that all these Sith lords are also going to be in her...Rey would have to be extremely gullible if she believed she would have much, if any control of her own body after Palpatine and 1000+ Siths take over her body.

I understand that this property is HUGE to Disney so they don't want to take much risk with it. But it's crazy that Disney absorbed Lucas Film and the House of Ideas (Marvel) and this is the story they came up with. Obviously Disney and JJ Abrams were successful in creating something that was entertaining and financially profitable but these aren't films that I personally feel inclined to rewatch anytime soon. I found the unused concepts in The Art of The Force Awakens to be more imaginative and intriguing than the concepts they actually did go with for the films.