brayzie

YouTube fucked things up. Fandom has always been overly passionate at times, like the Batman editors getting hate mail when they killed off Robin. But that was probably a small minority of fandom.
I wanted to check out reviews of Star Trek Picard and the first batch of results are thumbnails with things like “WTF?” Facepalm (that’s kind of clever), “trashfire”, “no thanks”, and “Picard is a $&@%”

If you’re expecting to get paid for your review and you’re hoping to have some kind of influence (“hit that subscribe button/smash that like button”) I expect some intelligent criticism, not just shitting on something and trying to look cool by mocking everything and anything.
Even RedLetterMedia are acting like dicks, insulting the writers by calling them stupid. I’m pretty sure Discovery and Picard are not Ed Wood-level schlock.

Jay G.

This reminds me a bit of the Film Crit Hulk article about texture vs text:
https://observer.com/2018/05/the-two...r-movie-feuds/

The prequels had the basic "text" fine, with a general story arc that was solid. It just had really bad execution, from the writing and plotting to the dialogue to the acting, editing, etc., so when watching it, each scene is flawed, and doesn't build into a compelling whole.

The sequels are almost the opposite, where on a scene-by-scene level everything's executed well; the acting is good, the dialogue is snappy and witty, the pacing is good, the action is clear, etc. It just, ultimately, didn't add up to much. I think that's why I liked TLJ the most, because it felt like the one that had both a good story and a good execution, in the sense it took the very bland/familiar base of a story set up in TFA, and actually tried to tell an interesting story with those elements, where the characters actually learn and grow, instead of just being pulled along by a string of external events. Sadly, I felt like TROS fell back into pulling the characters along with all the events going on around them, making those events seem even more arbitrary than in TFA.

mcnabb

While I do find alot of RedLetterMedia stuff very funny, they are sort of frauds when it comes to Star Wars these days. These guys RIPPED the PT to shreds with the Mr Plinkett reviews of them. They did a detailed 7 video critique of TPM, AOTC and ROTS, and were one of the reasons that Lucas sold the movies. Now they rip on the Sequel Trilogy just as much these days when Disney pretty much made these movies for the PT haters in mind. The biggest complaint from the PT-Haters was we need likeable characters, we need less politics, we need less CGI worlds, and we want the movies to feel more like the OT rather than the PT. So Disney makes Rey, Finn and Poe to resemble Han, Luke and Leia. They have literally NO politics in the ST. They use very little CGI compared to the PT and try to use real worlds. And they pretty much made a carbon copy Trilogy of the OT.

So what are the complaints about the ST now? Rey, Finn and Poe are too much like Han, Luke and Leia! There are no politics so we have no idea how the First Order came to be, how Snoke took power, what is the Resistance? The worlds are boring as they keep going back to Sand planets and renaming them something different from Tatooine. The movies are too familiar as they are beat for beat like the OT!

SW fans make my head spin sometimes as I honestly don't know what the fanbase really wants.

brayzie

RLM's claim to fame was the Plinkett reviews of the PT, right? So they figure there's a market for Star Wars criticism done in exaggerated fashion and hyperbole. A well-balanced review of the ST? Bo-ring!

That's funny because Finn didn't resemble anyone. Was he supposed to be Leia?
And I think that last part is NOT something people were asking for, and is a fair criticism.

Now see, I disagree with you on this. Isn't this looking for things to criticize in the same way as these YouTube "critics."
I haven't heard anyone say that Finn is like Han, Luke or Leia.
And making Finn even more like Han in TROS...just because, is fair criticism. That bullshit "it rhymes" is a left over from the PT. Wanting likable characters is not the same as wanting carbon copies.

I think people were complaining about HOW the politics were portrayed in the PT, when got the Star Wars equivalent of C-SPAN and the members of congress voting on random bills. I did hear generalize that they wanted NO politics, just action. But the detailed complaints were more about how they explained this, not that they shouldn't explain it at all.
And again, those are legit criticisms about the First Order and Snoke.

My problem is not with actual fans liking or not liking something, and being vocal about it. It's with these YouTube reviewers who take it to extremes and say things like "The ST is TRASH! The worst EVER! Star Wars, go woke/go broke" and probably just do this for clicks so they make money.

brayzie

Yeah. I think TLJ is the most "Star Wars" of the post-OT films.

Jay G.

Certainly of the sequel trilogy. I think Rogue One explored something interesting as well, though maybe not as successfully, and I enjoyed The Mandalorian as well.

Mike86

Eh that’s really simplifying the complaints Red Letter Media makes when they critique franchises. It’s not like they just resort to name calling and give no reason. The Plinkett reviews are more exaggerated. If you want their more standard style review watch Half in the Bag or re:View.

I don’t see how they’re frauds for hating on the sequels just because they did the Plinkett reviews for the prequels, which is what they became known for. Both trilogies are disappointing for different reasons.

brayzie

I just watched their re: View of Star Trek Picard and they were being incredibly insulting towards the Star Trek writers and producers. They call it stupid as well, written by stupid people, or something to that effect. And there’s no way that guy’s shrill laugh is real. Just entertainment to mock something instead of focusing on a thoughtful review and critique.
Of course if they criticize how ST: Picard thinks supernovas work in a serious way, calm way , you’ll have people mocking THEM and saying’ “it’s just a tv show you nerds!! Get a life!”

So everything has to be presented in a snarky way as a pre-emptive defense mechanism.

Draven

This is one of those criticisms that I think is unfair to the ST. No one explained how Darth Vader and the Empire rose to power in the OT and no one complained. They did explain it in the PT and it sucked. I'm glad they learned that lesson (again) and skipped the explanation in the ST.

Mike86

I enjoyed the first episode of Picard more than they did, but Discovery is a crappy show. That’s more where I think they’re basing the criticism as the two shows involve a lot of the same people. They didn’t so much call the writers of Picard dumb, it was more they pointed out how it seems to be a show written by people with a passing knowledge of TNG for a more casual audience, which so far while I’m enjoying it is sort of true.

Draven

And see I adore TNG (my wife and I started our relationship with our love for the show) and I thought Picard was fan-fucking-tastic. We also really enjoyed Discovery.

I HATE when someone starts speaking for “the fans”. If that’s their opinion, that’s fine. But saying that it’s written for people with only a passing knowledge of TNG is kind of insulting to those like me who have poured over the Technical Manual and have an engraved pocket watch that says “to my Imzadi”. (We we’re very young )

Same thing when people say that “true” Star Wars fans wouldn’t like the ST or TLJ or whatever. It’s insulting.

brayzie

I think it's apples an oranges.
A New Hope was a brand new movie so there's no need to explain everything. But when you're making a sequel trilogy 20+ years later, some people are going to want some things explained for all these new developments.
Yeah, they didn't explain why Obi-wan or Yoda were in hiding in A New Hope and Empire Strikes Back. Do you think if they had that same approach to Luke's character in TLJ, didn't explain why he was in hiding, that it wouldn't warrant legit criticism from the audience?

I don't see what Mike wrote or quoted as being "written for people with ONLY a passing knowledge of TNG..." If anything I interpreted it as saying the show is supposed to be more accessible to everyone, and not being written specifically to those with encyclopedic knowledge of the original series. And I agree that it DOES seem written that way. Same for Star Trek Nemesis. They were acting like Data having a brother was some big deal. No mention of Lore whatsoever. No mention of it either in Picard either. To be fair they might bring him up later, but considering they're was so much discussion on good "synths" and bad "synths" it's funny Lore was never mentioned. And Data's actual daughter, Lal? No mention of her either. And why is Picard and Data portrayed as best friends now? Just to mirror Kirk and Spock's relationship?

But I agree with you on the "true" fan claims. It was even brought up again in one of these threads.

brayzie

No, they were generalizing Star Trek producers and writers in general. Even if Discovery is crappy, you can criticize it without directly insulting the writers and producers. They come across like kids who were picked on in school, and now that they're grown up, they get to pick on others and call them names.

But like I said, I get it. If they sound sincere and thoughtful with their criticism they'll be called losers or mocked for being like "Comic Book Guy" from the Simpsons. Even people at this forum have been called "fucking nerds," and "mouth breathers" for respectfully voicing their fan criticisms of genre films. Notice that Mike Stoklasa felt he had to be in character as "Mr. Plinkett" to make a 100 minute review criticizing The Phantom Menace.

Rob V

I wanted a 3-story (or more) arc that was epic and conclusive. After just a season or two of Game of Thrones, we knew the White Walkers were going to be part of the finale... but with the ST, we got a major conclusion after the first and third movies. Additionally, we didn't even know who the main bad guy was until the 3rd movie (or maybe all 3 movies had different bad guys; which is fundamentally stupid). It was just a discombobulated mess and a disservice to the franchise.
I hated the PTs... but the story at least had an arc; a plot -- it was just poorly executed.

Noonan

The only way I can think to put it is that they felt more like SW movies compared to the newer ones. Far from perfect but between feeling more SW and having a cohesive story between the three, they're more enjoyable to watch. Also, Maul is better than basically anything we get in 7-9. When he first comes through the door, pulls out the dual saber, John Williams score blasting, fight with Neeson/McGregor...that scene is probably the best in the whole series outside of "I'm your father".

Mike86

They sound pretty sincere in moments in that re:View episode you were referring to. Shit, look at the 19 minute or so timestamp when Rich talks about his favorite Star Trek moment. You can tell it’s a guy who really loves the franchise, and is genuinely disappointed with how it’s being handled. Red Letter Media puts a comedic edge on their reviews and exaggerate aspects. I think you’re generalizing them somewhat now based on what they’re known for (the Plinkett reviews). They give thoughtful criticisms but not always with a straight face.

Brack

I’ll take a well made plotless movie over a poorly executed movie with a plot every time. Plot is overrated.

Rob V

I think we were expecting a plot though... single movies, sure, I get your point.

dex14

Josh-da-man

joe_b

I read it last week. Sure hope Kelly Marie Tran never did, because she'd probably be sad to see how much screen time she lost out on.

Would this have made a great movie? Probably not. Would it have been an improvement over what we ended up with? Yes.

I was surprised to discover that Leia was not integral to the story in this draft. I remember Kathleen Kennedy saying that IX would have been "her movie" had Fisher lived. Apparently that was just lip service. Trevorrow and Connolly simply gave the character a couple motivational speeches to deliver and called it a day. There isn't one scene in the entire script of Leia and Kylo together, which was something I'd been anticipating since TFA. Kind of a letdown, but that ended up being a common feeling with how this trilogy handled the OT characters.

The hero arc with Finn was a lot more satisfying in this draft. He's completely useless in the actual film. Ghost Luke would have also been used to better effect. At least this script actually bothered to follow through on the "See you around, kid." line by giving him scenes with Kylo. Abrams is a moron for not carrying over some of the more interesting ideas from this draft. I know he made it a point to avoid showing anything from the prequels, but the Coruscant uprising would have been much cooler to witness than most of the random crap he threw at the screen in TROS.

Unfortunately, even a different set writers couldn't save Rey from being a boring central character. Her romance with Poe in this draft felt totally unnecessary and unearned.

JeremyM

I took my kids to this yesterday-daughter 11 and son 6. They're not huge Star Wars fans but we had been to Disney World recently and they enjoyed the rides, so figured it was now or never to see a Star Wars "episode" on the big screen with them.

And they absolutely loved it.

I still think it's entertaining enough but the Palpatine stuff is kind of a big miss for me. That said, I liked it more the second time around.

milo bloom

One thing the whole Palpatine sub-plot has done for me is make me realize how few people are aware of the Dark Empire comics from the 90's that featured a clone of Palpatine trying to take over again and Luke willingly becoming his apprentice to try to stop him from the inside.
For those of us that read it (and liked it, opinions vary) the Palpatine subplot was an awesome callback to that old comic series we were able to just go with the flow and enjoy it right away.

I think more people will be like you and they'll come around once it hits home video and people can digest it at home.

brayzie

I get they want to do their own thing for a variety of reasons. They don't want to follow the EU because it'll be predictable for the SW fans. But they might as well have used the clone plot from Dark Empire. That would at least make sense, and tie it into the whole Clone War. Not only did he use the clones to take over the Republic, but also he wanted to ensure that he'd survive whatever assassination would take place. I guess the clone angle is too common in sci-fi and fantasy but they already based the PT on a throwaway line in the OT. Might as well run with it some more.

Jay G.

I read one of those, I think just the first.

The thing is, that comic made way more sense. Palpatine using the dark side to transfer his essence into a clone, and then almost immediately try and take over again? Sure.

For TRoS, they didn't make clear Palpatine was a clone, and there's indications he's not (injured, decaying body). Him "making" that other Sith lord (I'm blanking on the name) as a "front" makes even less sense. If you're trying to revive The Empire as the First Order, why not come out and front it yourself? Also, why is he just sitting on a giant fleet of Star Destroyers with Death Star guns? Just one of them would've been a formidable weapon against the New Republic. Instead of waiting decades for a planet-sized Death Star that can only take out 3 planets with one shot, deploy a dozen of those Star Destroyers, blow up 12 planets, and bring the New Republic to its knees before it even starts. I mean, at least with Death Star 2 in RotJ, we know that The Empire didn't just blow up Hoth because they weren't done building Death Star 2.

The whole bit about Palpatine actively seeking his own death so he could become one with the other Sith lords is also contrived nonsense. Palpatine doesn't serve anyone, he uses the Dark Side to make everyone serve him. If all the Sith live in him, he wants them to live in him as long as possible.

The issue with Palpatine in TRoS is that it doesn't make sense. It retroactively makes a lot of the actions of The First Order in the other two sequel movies look like nonsense, and Palpatine like an idiot for just sitting things out for so long.

I think JJ maybe had an idea l that Darth wasshisname was actually a clone of Palpatine, but then RJ killed him off because he wasn't interesting, so JJ revised the plan and brought back Palpatine proper, then did a bit of hand-waving over the inconsistencies and plowed ahead with the plot, hoping nobody would notice.