Giantrobo

But...you both kept calling the Iron Fist debate "Silly" and "Bullshit" Sooooo I simply wanted to see why it was still "silly" and "bullshit" to you both when the debate has been closed...TWICE...once when they cast a white man and again when the show was cancelled. This new film doesn't seem like it will suffer the same casting issues.

And let me be VERY VERY CLEAR... I DOES MATTER TO ME. Always has. Since you both feel the Iron Fist debate is/was "silly" and "bullshit" its clear I care more than both of you. The Iron Fist casting mattered to me, even though I'm not Asian it mattered/matters to me that Asians get represented. Shit, I felt Iron Fist should have been Asian when he was created back in the 70's. That would have solved all these debates. But they made him white. Anyway, I don't see REPRESENTATION as "Forced Diversity".

devilshalo

Because I already knew about Shang Chi and his interactions with Iron Fist and Heroes for Hire in the comicbook timeline. But instead of people calling for a Shang Chi movie/tv series, they wanted to change the ethnicity of an established character? That's pretty stupid to me. And I'm not one bit offended that it wasn't an Asian cast for the role of a Caucasian male.

Maybe because I had Asian representation as "role models" in the form of Bruce Lee or actors/characters in Shaw Brothers movies, I don't give two shits about Iron Fist not being a person of Asian decent. It's a fish out of water story to begin with and there's plenty of representation with Colleen Wing. But people seem to get butt hurt over it for some reason without looking for other characters that are diverse for inclusion. Just because they came up with the Ultimates line and changed Nick Fury, doesn't mean they need to do it for every character. I wish they would retcon it to show that there were actually two Nick Fury's because it was weird to see the Howling Commandos without him the the first and second Captain America movies.

DJariya

Listened to a Movie Vlog today talking about Shang Chi.

Apparently he was created in the early 1970's and was pretty much a follow up to Bruce Lee's stardom.

Also, the character was once an Avenger and has a professional relationship with Natasha Ramonoff. Who knows maybe they could do a light introduction of Shang Chi in the Black Widow movie? The character is probably at least 2-3 years away from potentially seeing a big screen on his own.

fumanstan

And I explained why I felt that way. I don't understand your confusion, as just because the casting is done or the show has been cancelled doesn't mean the discussion should end there, or revisited.

If it matters, then you shouldn't be so eager to shut the door on revisiting the Iron Fist conversation. And no, your opinion on the casting does NOT mean you care more. It just means you have a different want/care about what representation means and the best way to go about it.

I believe that proper representation should and can be done with accurate characterization; I'm not a fan of racially swapping characters under the guise that the origins of Iron Fist are reflective of that era and a little bit racist. I'd rather get it right with the characters that were always Asian; get Mandarin right. Put in Amadeus Cho to the MCU. Put Sunfire in an X-Men movie. And in this case... develop a character written as an Asian Martial Artist.

Put something like Crazy Rich Asians on screen. Cast John Cho in Searching that doesn't have to rely or point out his ethnicity. That's representation to me, not changing a white male to something else.

Completely with you.

devilshalo

And you can't pick and choose where your 'inclusion' should occur. Thanks for stereotyping! Yes, only Asians can know and be proficient in martial arts! Do you know who Dr. Hatsumi is? He was the 34th grandmaster of Togakure ninjutsu. You know who he passed it on to and now teaches it? Stephen Hayes, a white guy. I guess Chuck Norris is phony AF, too?

And I don't see you arguing about diversity in the Captain Marvel thread, screaming about, "where's the African American woman that can play Carol Danvers? Why does she have to be white?" Same goes for Shazam. Why are you not asking where's African American Billy Batson, because his view of what a superhero like Captain Marvel should look like would be interesting and diverse, but no, you want to change a 3rd tier hero's ethnicity just because...

fumanstan

Those have already been cast, so the issue is closed and we can't talk about it. But yeah, it was always a little strange to me that the movement around casting an Asian actor to portray Iron Fist seemed to be because people felt a white male savior using Asian teachings was racist, yet somehow placing an Asian person in to the type of role that Asians have always been stereotyped in media was a better solution.

Honestly, I even have some mixed feelings about the first leading Asian superhero adaptation from Marvel being a martial artist if this actually developed.

ultimaton

Next up of course will be Amadeus Cho, who's power is he's really, really good at math.

Giantrobo

Who is THEY? The ones who made this show cast a white guy in the role. So if you don't care and think it's "bullshit"....Mission Accomplished.


I've said it here and in discussions with Asian friends who wondered when they would see a Major Comic book Film with an Asian leads, that at least they have always had ASIAN CINEMA which is/was hugely successful where Asians got to see themselves represented and where Asians controlled it all and didn't have to cast based on what the White man wanted to see.

devilshalo

THEY are the people that were up in arms at Finn Jones' casting of Iron Fist.

https://variety.com/2017/tv/news/fin...sy-1202007991/
Because the comic book character was a white guy, he's the perfect choice, because HE'S A WHITE GUY. And I pointed it out back then, that there is already Shang Chi in the Marvel universe that could have been adapted to show inclusion. But no one gave a damn because "How Dare They Cast a White Guy!"

Giantrobo

Sigh...let me explain...AGAIN....You BOTH keep saying you don't/didn't give a shit about the Iron Fist casting. So I'm confused as to why you both keep bringing it up and passionately making it known that ...You don't care. I get that you both don't care about the Iron Fist casting. That's why I feel it's a dead issue.

That said, based on what I've just read from both of you.. I 100% agree that REPRESENTATION as a whole is an ongoing issue. Now, will they cast a Non-Asian in the role of Shang-Chi? Doubt that. I think they are getting it right in THIS film as they are banking on having an original Asian character in a film where an Asian actor will be in a lead role. So IMHO, it SEEMS we may have less to worry about here.


But you both keep saying you don't give a shit about Iron Fist. I'd say based on you bringing it up again and again. You do... So I may care more about THAT issue...I'm just taking you both on your typed words

For the most part I agree. Get it right the first time and work with ORIGINAL characters instead on Race/Gender swapping established. Have said that all along. Clearly you follow my thoughts/post on this since you threw it back in my face to make your point.

But again, since Iron Fist is DONE I don't see why it needs to be brought up again in the ongoing discussion for representation. Shang-Chi, Black Panther, Captain Marvel...it seems someone is getting it right in terms of representing women and people of color.

devilshalo

I brought it up, because I wanted to see Shang Chi in the first place and no one talked about him when there was the ridiculous want to cast an Asian actor as Iron Fist.

And I say the same about certain fans that want an Asian Robin/Nightwing. Why? Those fans should be looking at Terry in Batman Beyond. Who in my mind is a mixed hapa.

Giantrobo

Again. fanboy/Internet OPINION doesn't mean shit; and CLEARLY had no affect on the final casting. Now, if it was Disney/Netflix thinking about doing it it would be a whoooole different story. You said it was bullshit...you said you didn't think they should change Iron Fist's race...They Didn't. That was why I asked you about your original comment.

Well, they are doing it now. So unless they cast a white dude in the role of Shang-Chi or race change from Asian another character in the film this is 1 battle won in the ongoing war for representation.

Paul_SD

Like the Man With The Golden Gun was with the Bond series, MoKF was Marvel's attempt to cash in on the early seventies kung fu craze.

The inspired part (I thought) was making the lead character the son of (well known character) Fu Manchu (shades of SW to come).

That tie was enough to create legal/licensing problems that kept the material from being reprinted in the intervening decades and was one big reason it's unfamiliar to younger generations.

I never read the books back in the day, though I remember flipping past them regularly in the spinner racks. After hearing a lot of positive buzz in the years after, I was able to score a bunch at a flea market about twenty years ago.

It was an interesting book- very densely plotted with a lot of James Bond style villans/fortresses/man-on-a-mission type stories- and a lot of very striking art from Paul Gulacy early on and ending with Gene Day.

I think this material is more than ripe for a series of films, just the way I always felt Iron Man was before any average moviegoer ever heard of him.

Lots of potential to mine different territory for the studio, not just in terms of racial or cultural/geographical demographics.

And yeah, a good way to introduce him would be in something like a Black Widow stand alone film.

fumanstan

That's incorrect. I've never said that I didn't give a shit about Iron Fist or the casting. I don't know why you think that, and i've never written anything alluding to that. The comments i've made here have always been about my feeling on the discussions being had around casting an Asian actor as Iron Fist, which I care about because I've been against it. Those are two very different topics, and honestly i'm a little confused at how you interpreted any of the discussion here as not caring.

I'm not sure what I threw back in your face here. Although as discussed previously, you seemed supportive of racially swapping Iron Fist which I don't care for. It's a matter of opinion, and i'm not judging you or anyone else on it that feels the opposite of me. I'm just saying that as an Asian American, racially swapping a character like Iron Fist would not give me a stronger sense of pride about my heritage.

I feel like I've already stated why it was brought up in my last two responses. And as devilshalo has said, it's come up again with characters like Nightwing. If you don't care about what's in the past, that's fine and you don't have to engage in discussing it further. But I see where devilshalo was coming from and the topic is of interest to me on a social level and understanding why OTHER people, those who write extensive articles online about the topic, feel the way they do. That's all

Quatermass

He's not kidding. I was there too and I'm here to tell you, Everybody was Kung Fu fighting. Those cats were fast as lightning.

mrhan

I didn't like Shang Chi that much growing up with his ongoing daddy issues. I actually preferred Iron Fist. As a 10 year old I thought it was cool that they ripped off Game of Death for Iron Fist's Marvel Premiere appearance.

Giantrobo

Ok i'm done being Gasligted here. Bottom line more People of Color being represented in lead roles in Comic Films is a good thing.

Later.

devilshalo

...without changing the ethnicity of an established character to do so.

Giantrobo

for the most part yes. But it can also be a case by case thing.

fumanstan

Gaslighted? I've been trying to be polite responding to you but that's bullshit when you were the one flat out wrong in saying that I didn't give a shit. Look, if you think the Iron Fist race conversation should be closed so be it and you can stop engaging further, but don't act like you're the one being fucked with when I'm simply trying to explain to you why the discussion is still meaningful and relevant to ME and how my race is represented, especially given your own passion for black representation. You should at least respect that. C'mon man.

Giantrobo

You said the Iron Fist thing was "silly" and Devilshalo said it was "bullshit" That's all I ever meant. Go back and read your own posts...

And again, I'm not saying the issue of Asian Representation is 'closed' I never said that and WOULD never say that. I'm for this issue...as you correctly keep pointing out. I'm just saying the Iron Fist Netlfix show discussion is over. Devilshalo said he thought it was "bullshit" that people wanted an Asian cast as Iron Fist. Well, since a white guy was cast it seems like Disney/Netlfix agreed with him. So what more is there to say about the Iron Fist Netflix show ?



Aaaaaaand this is where the GASLIGHTING comes in from you. Trying to make it seem like I don't give a damn about Asian Representation. Look, we don't agree on the relevance of continuing the discussion of the casting on a CANCELLED SHOW. A show where you BOTH got your wish in that no "Forced Diversity" occurred for the Iron Fist character. But we DO agree that their needs to be more Asian Representation. I've said it here, I've said in the "Crazy Rich Asians" thread and probably other places. But I'm sure you conveniently ignored those posts to act like I'm downplaying the overall issue.

The GASLIGHTING is Real...

fumanstan

Yes, I know what I said. Calling something silly means I disagree with it, NOT that I don't give a shit. I have zero clue how you are equating those things together and why you don't understand that.

Bullshit. I'm not trying to make it sound like you don't give a damn, nor do I even believe that you don't give a damn. Unlike you interpreting what I wrote before as not giving a shit, I ACTUALLY BELIEVE YOU AND KNOW YOU DO. Like you said, we don't agree on the relevance of continuing the discussion and all i'm saying is it's ok if you don't care, but I do and that should be enough for you to not say that you care more then me or say we should stop talking about something that I feel is still meaningful.

Giantrobo

Yeah, go figure...

fumanstan

I missed this edit earlier, so addressing this part of your post. Yes, I know that's what you've been saying. To be clear, I've never believed or insinuated that you've been talking about the entire issue of asian representation. I've been trying to address and answer you regarding Iron Fist a few times now so let me answer your question directly again; Just because the show is done with doesn't mean there aren't people out there that DO believe it benefits Asian races to racially swap characters, and as devilshalo mentioned the topic came up again with regards to Nightwing. So the discussion is still relevant because there's still people out there that ask for these sort of things, there's a chance that it could happen elsewhere, and devilshalo and myself are simply stating an opinion on the overall effectiveness and merits of racially swapping characters. One we both happen to be against. You seem to be treating the Iron Fist conversation in a bubble, but in terms of the greater discussion its a good starting off point because it received a lot of attention, which is why it comes up. Does that make sense?


I give up. Either you still genuinely don't understand the difference in language or you just don't want to admit you were wrong. Or maybe I'm the one that's not getting the point across properly. Whatever man, blame me if you want.

Giantrobo

Back on topic..I'm looking forward to supporting this Shang-Chi film!!