Does logical plotting matter to you?
#26
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Re: Does logical plotting matter to you?
Remember, Gavin Elster went looking for a woman who looked like his wife, then gave her a makeover to look even more like his wife. Elster selected Judy because she was similar to his wife. He takes her to a restaurant as his wife! Within the movie’s world they are twins. Now whether it’s possible to do that in the real world is another issue.
Last edited by Mabuse; 01-26-18 at 10:27 AM.
#27
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
Re: Does logical plotting matter to you?
Didn't Stewart's character have a mental breakdown after she fell? It's credible he wouldn't have paid attention to the news or much of anything else going on for a while after. If I remember right he's still wandering around a few bricks short of a full load when he runs into her the second time.
#28
DVD Talk Ultimate Edition
Re: Does logical plotting matter to you?
I have been thinking of this for a while, but I realized that I do not like movies that are terribly plotted.
This was crystallized by TLJ. I dont dislike TLJ because of a lot of the SW specific nits, but because at it's core it is a truly terrible story with ludicrous, illogical, ridiculous and outright dumb plotting.
But I see it a lot these days. Nolan's movies are filled with incredibly dumb and unbelievable plot elements and holes and tons of things that make absolutely no sense whatsover.
It seems a lot of movie goers are OK with ludicrous brain dead plotting as long as it leads to something cool in the story, even if it does not hold up to even minor scrutiny.
And blockbusters are not even the only ones guilty. Even the potential best picture Three Billboards... has some seriously dumb and contrived plot points in that second half (along with some annoyingly cliched characters) yet it is winning scripting awards.
So just wondering if a logical, well thought out and realistic plot is important to peoples enjoyment of movies or if it is just very far back in the list of things that make a movie enjoyable for you.
This was crystallized by TLJ. I dont dislike TLJ because of a lot of the SW specific nits, but because at it's core it is a truly terrible story with ludicrous, illogical, ridiculous and outright dumb plotting.
But I see it a lot these days. Nolan's movies are filled with incredibly dumb and unbelievable plot elements and holes and tons of things that make absolutely no sense whatsover.
It seems a lot of movie goers are OK with ludicrous brain dead plotting as long as it leads to something cool in the story, even if it does not hold up to even minor scrutiny.
And blockbusters are not even the only ones guilty. Even the potential best picture Three Billboards... has some seriously dumb and contrived plot points in that second half (along with some annoyingly cliched characters) yet it is winning scripting awards.
So just wondering if a logical, well thought out and realistic plot is important to peoples enjoyment of movies or if it is just very far back in the list of things that make a movie enjoyable for you.
I am really forgiving on plot holes as long as the story has compelling characters or just transports me completely to another universe.
Although I recently re watched The Game with Michael Douglas, an extremely plot driven movie and that one just drives me nuts because I just can't come up with a way to fill in all the holes and make the story work. There are just too many things that conveniently happened to force the plot down the specific path. It's still fun to imagine that a service like CRS could exist, but in reality, I don't see how it could remotely be possible.
#29
DVD Talk Reviewer
Re: Does logical plotting matter to you?
If it absolutely mattered, the Star Wars franchise wouldnt have even made it off Tattoine. Under more rigid scrutiny, it might not even make it past the Imperial gunners not taking out their escape pod because no life forms aboard. Yet here we are, looking ahead to the tenth full-blown movie in this universe and discussing whether logical plotting matters because of The Last Jedi.
#30
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Re: Does logical plotting matter to you?
Didn't Stewart's character have a mental breakdown after she fell? It's credible he wouldn't have paid attention to the news or much of anything else going on for a while after. If I remember right he's still wandering around a few bricks short of a full load when he runs into her the second time.
Also Ash, it's stated in the film that Gavin Elster had already killed his wife (I believe by breaking her neck) before ever dragging her up to that tower. He was simply throwing an already dead woman off the tower.
#31
Moderator
Re: Does logical plotting matter to you?
A bit of a non sequitur, but this conversation reminds me of this one day several years ago when I was home sick from work, and, by coincidence, ended up watching Vertigo and That Obscure Object of Desire, back-to-back. The nature of the films and my own feverish condition made the juxtaposition of two films in which an older man obsesses over, in the former, two younger female characters played by the same actress, and, in the latter, a younger female character played by two different actresses, an interesting study in the subjectivity of film.
#32
DVD Talk Ultimate Edition
Thread Starter
Re: Does logical plotting matter to you?
Uh oh...Johnnysd pulled an Oldboy, as this could be discussed in The Last Jedi thread.
I would hope that the film I pay good money to see was put together by folks who at least attempted to string together a series of events in some type of coherent manner otherwise you end up with a bunch of scenes just smashed up against one another with no understanding of why action X by Captain Bob in one scene fits in with what Lieutenant Morgan just did in the scene that follows. Those types of films can end up not just being so bad that they are good but just plain bad films.
While I was entertained by the "final" Resident Evil film I am glad I ended up seeing it on cable, fun to watch or not it really was just a series of "cool" scenes that were smashed together to get you from the beginning of the film to the end with a startling lack of connective tissue to tie one scene in the film to the other (Stuckmann rightfully had major issues with this in his review), so I would have had this nagging feeling of being entertained yet majorly disappointed if I had paid to see it in theaters.
I would hope that the film I pay good money to see was put together by folks who at least attempted to string together a series of events in some type of coherent manner otherwise you end up with a bunch of scenes just smashed up against one another with no understanding of why action X by Captain Bob in one scene fits in with what Lieutenant Morgan just did in the scene that follows. Those types of films can end up not just being so bad that they are good but just plain bad films.
While I was entertained by the "final" Resident Evil film I am glad I ended up seeing it on cable, fun to watch or not it really was just a series of "cool" scenes that were smashed together to get you from the beginning of the film to the end with a startling lack of connective tissue to tie one scene in the film to the other (Stuckmann rightfully had major issues with this in his review), so I would have had this nagging feeling of being entertained yet majorly disappointed if I had paid to see it in theaters.
#33
DVD Talk Limited Edition
Re: Does logical plotting matter to you?
A good example of a plot hole I let slide is Superman 1978. The whole movie is great, so I tolerate the part where he turns back to the earth at the end. In fact, I tolerate it even more because of he screams, as that is one of the most powerful moments in the movie.
#34
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Re: Does logical plotting matter to you?
For me, it definitely falls into the "It depends" category. For some movies, too much plot can actually get in the way. It's like riding a roller coaster. I don't want to spend time wondering why the ride designer chose to make it curve this way or that, I just enjoy the ride.
#35
DVD Talk Godfather
Re: Does logical plotting matter to you?
If folks want a little proof that problems like this matter far less to the public at large, or that it really only depends on the subjectivity involved with liking or disliking a movie (or its director), look no further than the very first Star Wars and the incredible amount of coincidence and lapses in logical thinking that led to R2-D2 coming under Uncle Owens ownership and then into Lukes with all data intact.
If it absolutely mattered, the Star Wars franchise wouldnt have even made it off Tattoine. Under more rigid scrutiny, it might not even make it past the Imperial gunners not taking out their escape pod because no life forms aboard. Yet here we are, looking ahead to the tenth full-blown movie in this universe and discussing whether logical plotting matters because of The Last Jedi.
If it absolutely mattered, the Star Wars franchise wouldnt have even made it off Tattoine. Under more rigid scrutiny, it might not even make it past the Imperial gunners not taking out their escape pod because no life forms aboard. Yet here we are, looking ahead to the tenth full-blown movie in this universe and discussing whether logical plotting matters because of The Last Jedi.
To put it simply:
OT = good
ST = bad
Reason? "because."
#36
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
Re: Does logical plotting matter to you?
Assuming the Star Wars universe is populated with people who are strong with the force and many/most just never develop or use it, living on a planet that had the Falcon and map to Skywalker seems like it would make such an individual more likely to become pulled into the saga, not less.
#37
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Re: Does logical plotting matter to you?
If folks want a little proof that problems like this matter far less to the public at large, or that it really only depends on the subjectivity involved with liking or disliking a movie (or its director), look no further than the very first Star Wars and the incredible amount of coincidence and lapses in logical thinking that led to R2-D2 coming under Uncle Owens ownership and then into Lukes with all data intact.
If it absolutely mattered, the Star Wars franchise wouldnt have even made it off Tattoine. Under more rigid scrutiny, it might not even make it past the Imperial gunners not taking out their escape pod because no life forms aboard. Yet here we are, looking ahead to the tenth full-blown movie in this universe and discussing whether logical plotting matters because of The Last Jedi.
If it absolutely mattered, the Star Wars franchise wouldnt have even made it off Tattoine. Under more rigid scrutiny, it might not even make it past the Imperial gunners not taking out their escape pod because no life forms aboard. Yet here we are, looking ahead to the tenth full-blown movie in this universe and discussing whether logical plotting matters because of The Last Jedi.
Also, Rogue One is the best Star Wars movie. Fight me, nerds!
#38
DVD Talk Hero
Re: Does logical plotting matter to you?
A well-made movie floats me over plot holes. A poorly-made movie drops me into them.
A well-made movie might be one with a tight plot that only has a couple of minor gaps that aren't evident until I think about it carefully. Or it might have a nonsensical plot that is full of gaping holes, but the storytelling gets me past the holes before I can be bothered by them. A good director or a good editor can sneak stuff past me that a bad one can't.
It's all in the presentation.
A well-made movie might be one with a tight plot that only has a couple of minor gaps that aren't evident until I think about it carefully. Or it might have a nonsensical plot that is full of gaping holes, but the storytelling gets me past the holes before I can be bothered by them. A good director or a good editor can sneak stuff past me that a bad one can't.
It's all in the presentation.
#39
Re: Does logical plotting matter to you?
Yes. Furthermore all the press surrounding the situation would be photos of the wife, who, according to the movie's rules, is an indistinguishable double of Madeline.
Also Ash, it's stated in the film that Gavin Elster had already killed his wife (I believe by breaking her neck) before ever dragging her up to that tower. He was simply throwing an already dead woman off the tower.
Also Ash, it's stated in the film that Gavin Elster had already killed his wife (I believe by breaking her neck) before ever dragging her up to that tower. He was simply throwing an already dead woman off the tower.
When I was last watching it, I fell asleep before it got to those parts.
It still sounds utterly ridiculous. If he's got a wife who already looks like Kim Novak, why would he want another one? And why would he then want to kill the first one? And how does a middle-aged man drag a corpse up all those stairs without having a coronary?
Not that plot points like this were ever Hitchcock's strong points. And I'm a fan.
#40
DVD Talk Legend
Re: Does logical plotting matter to you?
Time travel movies are a plot whole and paradox waiting to happen. You can rip them to shreds but BTTF is still very entertaining for me.
Sci-Fi can get away with some large plot holes and coincidences since without them there is no movie.
I dislike horror movies because as someone mentioned, smart people doing really stupid things. People are getting killed so let's call out really loud so the bad guy can hear us. Let's bang and not pay attention. Let's go into that shed with knives and axes and ignore the running car.
Sci-Fi can get away with some large plot holes and coincidences since without them there is no movie.
I dislike horror movies because as someone mentioned, smart people doing really stupid things. People are getting killed so let's call out really loud so the bad guy can hear us. Let's bang and not pay attention. Let's go into that shed with knives and axes and ignore the running car.
#41
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Re: Does logical plotting matter to you?
When I was last watching it, I fell asleep before it got to those parts.
It still sounds utterly ridiculous. If he's got a wife who already looks like Kim Novak, why would he want another one? And why would he then want to kill the first one? And how does a middle-aged man drag a corpse up all those stairs without having a coronary?
Not that plot points like this were ever Hitchcock's strong points. And I'm a fan.
Elster doesnt want a different wife who looks the same, he doesnt want a wife at all! He wants his wife dead so he can have her fortune.
#42
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
Re: Does logical plotting matter to you?
When I was last watching it, I fell asleep before it got to those parts.
It still sounds utterly ridiculous. If he's got a wife who already looks like Kim Novak, why would he want another one? And why would he then want to kill the first one? And how does a middle-aged man drag a corpse up all those stairs without having a coronary?
Not that plot points like this were ever Hitchcock's strong points. And I'm a fan.
Vertigo is probably my all-time favorite movie. I've watched it too many times. I would concede plot holes if you were to point them out, but most of what you've brought up makes me wonder if you've ever actually watched the whole movie.
#43
Re: Does logical plotting matter to you?
So he does get the fortune after all, right?
Pretty much all of these points are explained by the characters in the movie. Judy writes a letter, which she ends up destroying, and we hear her narration as she writes and explains her involvement. Then at the end, when they reach the tower, Scottie explains everything to the viewers when he confronts Judy. It is here when it's confirmed that Gavin had broken Madeleine's neck prior to tossing her. These two scenes pretty much stop the action just to explain all these plot points for you!
Vertigo is probably my all-time favorite movie. I've watched it too many times. I would concede plot holes if you were to point them out, but most of what you've brought up makes me wonder if you've ever actually watched the whole movie.
Vertigo is probably my all-time favorite movie. I've watched it too many times. I would concede plot holes if you were to point them out, but most of what you've brought up makes me wonder if you've ever actually watched the whole movie.
#44
Re: Does logical plotting matter to you?
Does logical plotting matter to me? Not in movies Movies are fantasy.
#45
DVD Talk Hero
Re: Does logical plotting matter to you?
It's easy for me to just become immersed in the movie. It doesn't take much to fool me. I'm more about the feelings I get than the thoughts I have. Give me a few perfect moments and I'm hooked.
#46
DVD Talk Ultimate Edition
Re: Does logical plotting matter to you?
I pretty much need a logical flow to a film to enjoy it. I'm okay with the occasional coincidence, but when a film fails to play by its own rules, the rules that it's set up to work under, I can't stand it.
Case in point for me: Colossal.
Logical inconsistencies like these pretty much kill my enjoyment of a film.
Case in point for me: Colossal.
Spoiler:
#47
DVD Talk Legend
Re: Does logical plotting matter to you?
My daughter flew to S Korea from the east coast and it was 36 hours door to door. That's why we haven't visited. Half the week would be spent traveling.
#48
DVD Talk Limited Edition
Re: Does logical plotting matter to you?
I pretty much need a logical flow to a film to enjoy it. I'm okay with the occasional coincidence, but when a film fails to play by its own rules, the rules that it's set up to work under, I can't stand it.
Case in point for me: Colossal.
Logical inconsistencies like these pretty much kill my enjoyment of a film.
Case in point for me: Colossal.
Spoiler:
As for me on this, I think logical plotting matters the most on intricate who dunnits and very realistic movies. I'm okay with some clunky plot elements if the rest of the movie is entertaining.
#49
DVD Talk Ultimate Edition
Thread Starter
Re: Does logical plotting matter to you?
Man, if travel time inconsistencies bother you, do NOT watch the last season of Game of Thrones!
As for me on this, I think logical plotting matters the most on intricate who dunnits and very realistic movies. I'm okay with some clunky plot elements if the rest of the movie is entertaining.
As for me on this, I think logical plotting matters the most on intricate who dunnits and very realistic movies. I'm okay with some clunky plot elements if the rest of the movie is entertaining.
Cameron on the other hand seems to be pretty masterful at plotting. I think it is part of why he always seems to exceed expectations with his movies. The themes and overall story structure in Avatar was trite and done before, but the science was very solid, and the story was logical and well thought out.
For me they can completely ruin movies like Spielbergs War of the Worlds and AI