OldBoy

just as rousing the second time around. Can’t understand any hate this one gets. Simply a well constructed, exhilarating movie with great acting and special effects. Loved it again from beginning to end and can’t wait to finish this saga this weekend.

brayzie

How does TLJ have an auteur approach? I haven’t seen any of Rian Johnson’s movies but TLJ didn’t feel that noticeably different from TFA and even the OT. At least not to the point that it was completely jarring.

Michael Corvin

I watched the first 10-15 minutes again because of all this talk (I'll give it a full watch before Rise) and the lightsaber flip is fucking hilarious. 30 year build up of not seeing Luke including spending an entire movie searching for him and his first real scene is him basically saying 'nah, fuck it.' I love it.

I mean after offing Han, it added some much needed levity.

I still can't believe that little snippet pissed off so many people.

Draven

It wasn’t what they wanted, therefore it’s bad.

I agree it’s awesome. It would have been even better to have him toss away the lightsaber right at the end of TFA but the nerd rage would probably have been too great.

brayzie

You sound just like the nerds and haters you criticize if you really think that would have been better. That shit would have looked like a bit from the blooper reel if TFA ended that way.

Mike86

You can like it and that’s fine, but I don’t get how you can’t at least acknowledge why some people wouldn’t like it rather than just writing it off as nerds raging. It’s a perfectly rational reaction for some of us to have to something pretty unexpected and not the direction people would want.

Draven

You can not like it - that’s fine. I don’t like all kinds of movies people love. The online reaction to TLJ is WAY beyond “not liking it”.

Mike86

As is the reaction of people telling us who don’t like it how wrong we are.

Draven

I usually talk about why I LIKE something that happens in TLJ. I LIKE the saber flip. I LIKE how easily Snoke was taken out. I thought it made the movie refreshing and unexpected. You are certainly free to disagree, but that just makes me think you wanted something more predictable than I did.

I only point out that someone is wrong if they say something like, for example, "how can the bombers work in space" while giving the dogfighting a total pass in the OT. As I've said many times, I'm just looking for consistency. If someone says they hate how Rey's parentage worked out or that she got Force powers too quickly without acknowledging things like that Lucas had no fucking idea that Vader was Luke's father in ANH or Luke had no experience with the Force or flying in combat and made the winning shot that ended the war and tries to fanwank it away like it was part some master plan that was clearly being made up as it went along, then I think that person is a wee bit hypocritical.

And if someone says "Luke didn't do anything in the final TLJ fight and went out like a pussy" when he literally used all of the Force power he had to save the remaining resistance members and sacrificed himself in the process, then I just don't know what to say. It's like bitching that Superman didn't fly at all in a Superman movie when he's flying all the time. It's like they weren't even watching the movie.

story

This is the number one complaint against The Last Jedi that comes off as so ridiculous.
"A Jedi uses his strength for knowledge and defense. Never for attack."
Luke did the exact right thing and he did it well.

brayzie

I agree. It's a great fake-out, similar to the reveal of the powerful Jedi Master known as "Yoda" turning out to be a Kermit the Frog muppet.

That was not unexpected at all while watching it. It dragged out so painfully slow you knew Kylo was going to turn on Snoke.
I mean, we already know that Kylo's not going to kill the main character of the new trilogy.
When the main baddie is going on a rant like "I cannot be beaten. I cannot be betrayed..." you know he's going to be beaten and betrayed. Plus, the Sith "always betray one another."
And I'm watching the scene right now. Snoke is still going on and on...

I see his mind.
I see his every intent.
Yessss, I see him turning the lightsaber to strike true. (Audience knows Rey's not going to be killed)

Close up on Kylo's hand using the Force to slowly twist the lightsaber by Snoke, while holding his own lightsaber towards Rey. Oh okay, Kylo's going to use Rey's lightsaber to betray and kill Snoke.
Snoke still ranting.

...and now,foolish child he ignites it... (dude, we know he's going to kill you and not Rey)
And kills his true enemy!
Kylo kills Snoke.

That was unexpected for you? You see it coming a mile a while away.
I will say that prior to seeing TLJ, I expected them to develop Snoke more, only because he was so lame in TFA and there had to be something more to justify his existence. Another old Emperor-type in a robe, but with some obvious CGI. Okay, maybe they'll be more to him in TLJ. I remember, I think it was one of the actors of TFA hyping him up saying how Snoke is this powerful Sith and that he has this interesting background.
Now I know why he was such a generic villain in look and personality. He was never meant to be anything more.

Had Snoke actually been an interesting villain, and had Kylo turned on him in a more abrupt manner, that would have been unexpected.


Has someone in this thread mentioned that recently, because I thought you brought it up?

I noticed you didn't bring up Luke and Leia being twin siblings. So if there's something equally stupid like that in TROS you're arguing that people shouldn't complain because hey, it was done in the OT!
As far as people saying Lucas had some master plan while criticizing TLJ...I'm pretty sure that's a strawman argument. I don't remember seeing anyone in this thread claim that.

That's a good point.

Franchot

Just as rousing for YOU. It is hated because although the special effects are top-notch and the movie is nicely edited and "constructed," the screenplay is a mess with its continual use of "gotcha" moments, poor humor, illogical narrative scenes. The acting varies from very good to poor with many of the actors just screaming their lines.

Like you, I am looking forward to the end of this "saga."

OldBoy

umm...not just ME. the poll above and the critics who put it over 90% on RT will beg to differ...

slop101

I disagree. Sounds like you went into it expecting something else. Just because it wasn't what you wanted it to be, doesn't make it objectively "poor". Subjectively, sure, but you're not the standard-barer for good taste. And thank god for that!

DaveyJoe

People like to criticize RJ for trying too hard to subvert expectations but I think a lot of fans struggle to keep their expectations in check. I learned how important managing expectations can be when I was a teenager after the LOTR trilogy. I watched Fellowship without any familiarity of the series and absolutely loved it. I saw it three times in the theater. I read all of the books and was coasting on the hype train, waiting a year for the second film felt like a lifetime. When I saw TTT I was... disappointed. There was nothing really wrong with the film but I was expecting that same experience of seeing something brand new and exciting, which is an impossible feeling to reproduce. I ended up enjoying ROTK a lot more because I realized that your own expectations can hurt your enjoyment of something just as much as the quality of the product.

Star Wars fans are passionate and if something doesn't pan our the way they envisioned it in their head, that feeling of disappointment can cloud their opinion on the quality of the film. Luke could have been kicking ass and slicing stormtroopers with his lightsaber in TLJ, and that might have satisfied some fans, but it wouldn't have made sense with his arc throughout the series, and wouldn't have been good storytelling, which thrives off of conflict. Luke training Rey with enthusiasm wouldn't have made good drama, there was a lot of conflict between Luke and Yoda during his ESB training, and it was a better story because of it.

Mike86

People always seem to assume that everyone dissatisfied with how Luke was handled wanted a bad ass Luke who was ultra powerful with the Force and having epic lightsaber battles or something.

For me that isn’t the case. I just wanted him to actually be present for some sort of a final showdown. Not some bullshit projection because he’s too lazy and bitter with himself to leave his island. That’s not to say he had to be in the action- Rey and Kylo could have still had their showdown and been the focus, but I feel like Luke being more of a presence would have added some weight to his final scenes before his death. It just felt cheap to have him go out the way he did. I know people are going to disagree and we’ve been down this path but what wound up happening didn’t work for me.

Franchot

Of course what I write is "subjective." I went into the film with an open mind and ready for a great film that rivaled ESB according to the critics and the hype.

The jokes fell flat for me and the narrative of a slow speed space chase just didn't click for me so, yes, I was expecting something a little more thrilling.

During the "serious" scenes (Leia flying, Luke's death, Rose saving Finn) there were several outbursts of laughter and heckling in the theater when I saw the film on opening night. I imagine these other viewers all have the same "taste" in films.

And thanks for the ending dig at me in your post. It's appreciated. I was only stating MY opinion of the film.

milo bloom

It's like there's layers of separation. Going back to the OT, you have Ghost Obi Wan in ROTJ retconning the "Vader killed Anakin" story, which is a layer removed from the initial story we heard in ANH. But it works because people lie about how loved ones died all the time and this helps us understand how betrayed Obi Wan was by Anakin's fall.

In the PT, you have similar things where Qui Gon (not Obi Wan) is the one to find Anakin and start his training. Also that Qui Gon is Obi Wan's master (not Yoda, though Obi Wan does learn from Yoda). There's also jokes like "while you discuss this invasion in committee" or the running gag of "I have a bad feeling about this." There are layers you can go up and add on to a story that approach the 4th wall but still remain firmly within the continuity of the story. Done right, they are a signal to the audience by the filmmaker that "yes, this is a film, but we are still firmly within the story and the characters themselves won't be aware that they're in a story" (like Deadpool). Another way to look at it is The Princess Bride. If the storytelling scenes didn't exist, the main story of Westley, Buttercup, et al, wouldn't work as well because there are some structural issues with that story, that the narration framework smooths over.

Even up to TFA, we have a layer added on where Han explains the whole "Jedi/Sith/Force thing" ? That's a layer up, intended to bring the audience up to speed, but it works because while Han is still a grumpy old smuggler, he's still a smart person able to change with the times and he's explaining it to people to whom the Force and the Jedi (within the story) are already myths.


My (long and belabored) point is that Rian thought he was being really clever by adding layers of of story to the story. And being really clever in a film can work. But not in Star Wars. Having BB-8 deliver the iconic "I've got a bad feeling about this" line was "clever". If BB-8 had said and 3PO translated with some snarky comment for others to hear would have been clever and still fit in the way SW films work.

Having Luke being a shell shocked old grump that refuses to train Rey is "clever". Having Luke be a shell shocked old grump that initially refuses to train Rey but then comes around would have been similar to Luke and Yoda on Degobah, but we're used to that (it's like poetry, it rhymes) and would have been clever, but still fit in the way SW movies work.

Having Luke not really show up to fight Kylo Ren, instead using a Force projection is "clever". Having Luke show up in person to fight Kylo and the First Order, but then realize some kind of Force trick was needed to mentally outflank Kylo would have been clever but also still fit in the way SW movies work.

Rian was clearly fascinated by SW movies and how they're put together, and wanted to show that off. But he's too much like the Youtubers that can tear apart films that (sometimes) deserve it, but then can't really understand what would make them a good film.

So what we're left with is a film that "technically" works as a film and sorta works as a Star Wars film, but didn't really land because Star Wars films aren't "clever". Trek can be clever. MCU films can be clever. Star Wars is a fairytale. A straight up classic fairy tale like Disney doing Snow White or Cinderella. Not Shrek doing fairytales. Frozen plays with it ("You can't marry someone you just met!") but it works because Elsa is shown to be smart but emotionally compromised and Anna is emotionally compromised and a bit of doofus. They're aware enough of their own problems to see that. Rian could have gotten away with Frozen level of clever, but he attempted Watchmen-approaching-The Princess Bride clever, and that's not how Star Wars works.

brayzie

Okay, I read your post and get what you're saying. Let me address some of your points.

It works as Obi-Wan's motivation but I disagree how it was done in ROTJ. When Obi-Wan says, "He ceased to be Anakin and became Darth Vader. So what I told you was true. From a certain point-of-view," that just made him look even worse than just saying, "I lied because I didn't think you were ready." And it also made it look more obvious to the audience that the story wasn't planned out.

Darth Vader being revealed to be Luke's father...very much like a soap opera twist, but we gain a more nuanced impression of the great Jedi Anakin Skywalker and it adds some depth and tragedy to the whole mix. And it kind of looks like maybe it WAS planned when you rewatch that scene in ANH and Luke asks how his father died.
But Obi-Wan doing mental gymnastics to justify his lying just highlights the cheap soap opera-like element. Then right after we get some more cheap soap opera drama. "And Leia...she's actually your twin sister!" That's something straight out of All My Children or General Hospital.

I understand you have to retcon some things to make a prequel story interesting to the audience and give them SOME surprises. But I felt this just contradicted the original story too much. If the change makes the story better, go for it. If it makes it worse and doesn't feel organic, than it was probably a bad change.
It's too much retconning in a row.
When I first met your father he was already the greatest pilot in the galaxy=When I first met your father he was a 10 year old boy who had never won a pod race before.
Yoda was the Jedi Master who trained me, and I thought that I could train your father the same=Yoda was my preschool teacher, and it was really Qui Gon Jinn who trained me.
I convinced your father to leave Tattooine and go on some fool ass idealistic mission=When my master died I got stuck with a 10 year old, who happened to be your father.

So the the "committee" comment was in Phantom Menace, right? And a reference to coming up with the script in a committee? That went over my head, but had I caught it, it would have taken me out the movie for just a bit. I hate those winks to the audience.
"I have a bad feeling about this." Never noticed it until people pointed it out. Having it be some obligatory thing in each film is just cheesy IMO. Just like the idea that Arnold or someone else HAS to say "I'll be back" in every single Terminator movie.

Totally disagree. First off, I didn't even know that BB-8 said that. But rewatching it, that IS pretty clever if that's what he's supposed to be saying. Lucas ran that gag into the ground, and this is a way of making it feel new, continuing the tradition, but also be subtle enough that you can also ignore it.

I think that poetry, it rhymes stuff was an awful way to approach these films because it makes them too predictable. That only started with the PT and that story was awful and predictable.
I would argue that Luke being an old grump like Yoda but coming around like Yoda was too similar in structure. It wasn't what we were expecting initially but part of that was because of what Abrams set up in TFA. Luke leaves behind a map to help them find him in a time of need. But wait! He didn't want to be found! Gotcha!
But...but...why did he leave a map behind then??

And Luke DID come around to training Rey. He only stopped when he saw how much raw power she had and that she had the potential to turn to the dark side.

I think that scenario is too predictable and we see that in action-fantasy films all the time. I thought it what we got was a good surprise and I liked how it was foreshadowed. Rian Johnson patterned the story and visuals too close to TESB and ROTJ in a lot of respects. But the slight twists made it interesting enough, at least for mainstream film aimed at General Audiences.

I don't think Star Wars is a fairytale at all. It has the set-up like a fairy tale for the first one, but by the time of the second one it became something different. The hero doesn't get the beautiful princess. The bad boy does. Usually in fairytales and classic Disney movies, the good guy always gets the girl and saves the day. In TESB the hero doesn't get the girl, doesn't save the day, and has to be saved by the beautiful princess.
But by the time of the third one, it kind of reverts back and ends things in a very Disney-like way. It resolves the love triangle so that the hero isn't necessarily rejected by the beautiful princess for the bad boy, it's really because they're brother and sister. And the evil villain? He learns the error of his ways by embracing the good. We even have cute little dwarfs help the beautiful princess ala Snow White!

I have to watch Princess Bride again because I don't remember that much about it. I always thought it was kind of a mixture of parody and fairy tale.

I suppose TLJ takes a very small, baby step in the direction of Watchmen territory. The exchange between DJ and Finn is comparable to the theme about morality in Watchmen, Rorshach in particular. But if anything, that only made the Star Wars story feel slightly more mature and more inline with the best film from the OT, TESB.

I don't feel there's anything that drastic in TLJ that would make it feel out of place as a regular installment. The BB-8 thing is more meta than deconstruction in my opinion. And Luke isn't that much different from previous iterations of the character, at least from what we saw on Dagobah.

Josh-da-man

I can understand Obi-Wan not wanting Luke to know the truth about his father until he was prepared to know.

That would have been dangerous knowledge for someone young and inexperienced like Luke to know. It's something that could lead him to get killed or fall to the dark side himself.

I can also sort of buy the "from a certain point of view" explanation, in that Anakin Skywalker's darker impulses effectively killed the good person, and, at that point, he became a new man with a different name.

Mike86

I buy into that it’s true Anakin was dead from a certain point of view. Hell Vader didn’t even view himself as Anakin so he was technically present, but not as the same person. In some ways it’s as though he had a spell cast over him by Palpatine and the dark side of the Force while he was Vader.

brayzie

That seemed like just a really lame excuse to make Vader's redemption a thing. It wasn't Anakin who did those awful thing, it was Vader!
Darth Vader saving his son from the Emperor was almost like a selfish act, because he wanted to save the one remaining remnant of his humanity. It doesn't excuse what he did, but at least it was something. Luke mourning over his father's death, the man he once was, trying to reconcile what he became, while attempting to burn away the dark legacy of Darth Vader via funeral pyre could have been a great scene. But then we get a ghost old man Anakin, jolly, laughing and smiling with his old friends, ghost Yoda and ghost Obi-wan, from the Jedi senior home.

That whole thing about true from a certain POV, and Anakin ceasing to be himself when he did bad things only served to justify that ending scene, and I don't think it was worth it.

Paul_SD

It's having your cake and eating it too.
Your father didn't do all those awful things, and it's not your father who tortured your friend and your sister or killed Ben or cut off your hand- it's Vader! The darkness overtook him and now your father is gone!
Well, then again, not really. Your father will rise to the surface when the plot needs him to. You see, the excuse is that there is really this massive struggle going on inside him.

How does this massive struggle manifest itself over the course of three films? We see him looking back and forth in the last minutes of the last film before taking an action that runs contrary to how we've seen him behave for the other 98% of his screen time. That is the extent of his struggle.

Josh-da-man

I can't disagree with this.

There's almost something classicist about Star Wars and Darth Vader, in that all of Vader's sins are forgiven because he won't let his master kill his son. You know, fuck all of the little people that Vader killed or had sent to their deaths, but once one of the "special" people is endangered, he acts to protect him and then all is forgiven.

It's a bit Game of Thrones-ish, where we follow around the rich people with titles and banners and family names and sympathize with their struggles, but the toll it takes on all of the people living under the Starks, Lannisters, and Baratheons is mostly invisible. The farmers' kids getting chopped up and roasted alive on the battlefields don't matter in the scheme of things as long as the Lannisters get to keep their gold and the Starks get to keep their pride.

OldBoy

i know this doesn't mean much given the outrage to IBJoel's poll's , but RT ranked TLJ as the #2 best sci-fi movie of decade. TFA being 4...

RT Top 50 Best Sci-Fi movies of the decade...