Noonan

The basics is he admitted to sleeping with underage girls, plead guilty, then fled the country to avoid his sentence.

fujishig

I'm not sure which case you're referring to about people being vilified and losing work because of things they said, but, while it wasn't sufficient punishment for his crime (especially because when it blew over he got them all back), Kobe was vilified (and is still vilified) and lost work because of what he allegedly did. He lost huge endorsements and the public trust. I'll also say that for the most part, those who lost jobs because of things they said during #METOO shouldn't be defined only by what happened, especially if they were accusations.

Having said that, what he allegedly did is much worse than just words, so I get the rancor as well. I just don't like people unfamiliar with him popping into memorial threads hours after his death thinking that they're clever by saying he was a rapist without knowing or caring anything about the rest of his life. And to be honest I don't think B5Erik did that, it seems like a more personal matter to him and his mistake (in that thread)was continuing to push on it when told to stop, but lots of people online like to troll like that. It's not even trying to foster an honest discussion or anything. Of course the Colorado incident shouldn't be buried under the rug, and I don't think anyone but the most delusional Lakers fans think Kobe is really a saint. No basketball player is, no owner either (as much as Jerry Buss is beloved by the city as well).

Well, with one personal exception, I will be absolutely devastated if Jerry West isn't really a saint.

slop101

I don't think anyone's brought up Ryan Adams. He got canceled HARD! Sure, he was an asshole, but he never did anything illegal or violent. Basically, Mandy Moore and other women said he was mean to them and/or dangled the prospect of working together to sleep with them. Shitty, of course, but does that warrant the "canceling" of his career for the foreseeable future? He had 3 albums scheduled to come out in 2019, all canceled. His scheduled tour, canceled (and what about all the people on the crew that tour would employ?), his recording studio/label, done. Sure, he was a dick, it's all there in his songs, but I've just never seen someone so thoroughly canceled for so little.
Meanwhile, Chris Brown still has successful tours with hit after hit*

*that was a pun.

All of this begs the question, though this is more of an existential question, not really requiring an answer, but how far does one take this "canceled artist" thing anyways? If you have an issue with Adams, do you throw away your Beatles albums because Lennon beat his first wife? Do you stop listening to Zeppelin because they slept with underage girls? Both are objectively worse things than what Adams was accused of. It just seems so arbitrary to me. Then there's the issue of how this canceling leaves no room for redemption.

fujishig

I have no clue who Ryan Adams is, but was he cancelled as in his fans are boycotting him or is he kind of blackballed by the industry because of the accusations?

slop101

More by the industry and outside observers than fans - his fans all knew how he was - it really is all there in his songs, which are basically "love me because I hate myself". And maybe that's why he was canceled to easily - he's not a huge star - though did really well tour-wise and made money off his albums, but not at all a mega-star like most, so maybe that's why he was canceled so easily.

dex14

And he got to be married to Mandy Moore.

B5Erik

There's a difference between not being a saint and being a rapist. Kobe was a rapist.

And I only posted rebuttals to people who wanted to sweep his rape case under the rug, pretend it didn't happen, and continue their hero worship. "Great guy," "Great guy," "Did so much for women's sports," etc. Even Christine Brennan was on TV glossing over the case and praising him for all he's done for women. I was like, wait a minute, let's not canonize this guy just yet - there's this HUGE mark on his life that HAS to be addressed when you're assessing his life. I didn't address the rape case until people started whitewashing his life and calling him a, "Great guy." You cannot discuss Kobe's life and legacy without addressing the rape case. You just can't. That's HIS fault, no one else's.

Kobe's most ardent fans wanted to blame people for bringing the rape up, but he's the one who did it. He's the one they should be mad at for doing it in the first place.

B5Erik

The bigger the star you are, the more you can get away with.

Ryan Adams is a bad person, but he didn't commit any crimes. And he still lost most of his career.

DaveyJoe

It depends on the fans, Chris Brown fans are willing to ignore his crimes and continue buying his music.

dex14

Didn't he sext with a minor?

fujishig

Right. If he's not cancelled by his fans, is he really cancelled? The people that didn't know who Ryan Adams is aren't going out of their way to boycott him, are they?

B5Erik

But if he can't get tour dates or get his albums released they can't really buy anything of his, can they? Even if they're not boycotting, he can't work.

Now, maybe he shouldn't work if he's that much of a slimeball, but the point is he's paying a heavier price for just being an asshole than Kobe paid for being a rapist.

fujishig

Ok, reading about him now (like I said I had no idea who he was or what he did) he's more than "just being an asshole". He has documented sexting with a 16 year old kid, and even though he basically pleads with her to tell him he's 18, he mentions stuff like "people will think I'm like R Kelly if they knew." This is in addition to multiple people coming forward and saying that he pressured them for sex in order for his support in the industry.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/13/a...women-sex.html

Maybe every single one of them is just a big fat liar and Adams really thought that girl was 18 and thought it was ok, but I still think he's the wrong guy to try to justify your argument that people's careers were unjustifiably ruined by #Metoo.

slop101

FBI actually investigated that, and they cleared him - she was trying to trap him, giving him an older age, but he never should've let it get that far in the first place.

slop101

I never said "unjustifiably", just asking how far do we go with it - what is the exact "price to be paid" for such actions? Because it all seems so random/arbitrary, as people who have done far worse hardly ever got called out, much less paid a price.

fujishig

Do you have a source for that? I have a hard time believing that even if you didn't know a 14 year old was a 14 year old that it's perfectly legal to sext them as long as they told you they were 18. I mean, she was trying to trap him? What?

B5Erik

Maybe, maybe not - but that's not the point.

Kobe raped a woman and died a hero in most fans' eyes (and in the eyes of the reporters reporting on him in the media). While multiple men in the public eye have lost jobs for things they've said Kobe got away with a horrible crime and was lauded as a great person.

Isn't that a bigger issue?

fujishig

I should say this first: I don't really care that much about how Kobe is perceived, this is just for the sake of discussion.

I'm not sure why you'd believe, say, the account of someone like Ryan Adams who has multiple accusers and who's case goes far above and beyond things that he's said, but definitively say that Kobe raped a woman and that in his mind he didn't think it was consensual (like you, I believe he did it, but unlike you, I'm not sure). Like I said, Ryan Adams is not the example you want to use (IMHO). There are other cases where people lost their jobs and it turns out they didn't even say or do anything wrong, and I'll agree that the #Metoo movement acted too quickly and rashly there.

dex14

Anyone here going to see Louis CK on his upcoming tour?

PerryD

He went into hiding for two years, so maybe that's the penalty for the non-criminal #metoo cases.

dex14

Not sure what you mean. I'm legitimately asking.

He's been doing gigs for a while.

Giantrobo

B5Erik keep this same "Fuck that guy he's a rapist who got away with it because he's rich!" energy and vigor when charges against Harvey Weinstein are dropped like Kobe's...

slop101

Because he was never charged with a crime, and it's been a year since the FBI has been looking into it and he still hasn't been charged.
Again, creepy as fuck, but no explicit talk or pictures were exchanged by either party, afaik.

andicus

Looking at the schedule, there are a lot of sold out shows. Either they're small venues, or a lot of people are going to see him.

I do miss his "Louie" TV series.

dex14

Mostly 1,500+ theatres.