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The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey (Jackson, 2012) — The Reviews Thread

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Old 01-02-13 | 02:25 PM
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Re: The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey (Jackson, 2012) — The Reviews Thread

Originally Posted by RoboDad
I suspect what may be the problem is the lack of motion blur in some of the very fast-moving shots, which might be "playing tricks" on some segment of the population but not others. Maybe the lack of blur is causing some people to perceive the movement as actually being faster than it was.
Yeah, that's a definite possibility. I found a similar argument here:
http://www.chud.com/community/t/1460...0#post_3449321
In all honestly, watching the HFR made me wonder what some people are getting so apocalyptic about. It's not perfect, and did notice that odd 'sped-up' seeming look from time to time. Now we know that this is just a trick of the eyes and it's not sped up at all, and I did notice that it seems to be at its most noticeable when there's a lot of quick movement at the front of the frame, e.g. Bilbo's hand rummaging through the chest, or people running in and out. I suspect that it's down to the lack of motion blur in HFR. Part of the 'visual code' that's been instilled in us by the 24fps cinematic convention is that blurring that helps mask excessively quick movements, especially those that are close up. It's not something you think of consciously, but is a huge part of the mosaic we've been raised to consider The Cinematic Look. Taking that away, having these quick movements presented with no motion blur and with crystal clarity in each and every frame, we interpret as 'sped up' because suddenly we're getting a ton more visual information in the same window as time, and that hyper-awareness of this excess information tricks the brain into seeing it as a shoehorning-in of information (Hence the 'sped-up' interpretation) rather than a filling-out of the same information we're only familiar with getting in the real world.
What threw me was SomethingMore mentioning seeing the sped-up action in the 24fps version also. But perhaps his perception was biased, since he had already seen the HFR version.

Note that the suggestion of a camera bug was only one possibility I mentioned. There was also the possibility of it being a problem with certain projectors (the filmmakers and studio couldn't possibly check every projector showing the film in HFR). Or even certain shots were purposefully sped up.

It's very odd, because I wasn't really expecting to see sped-up action like that, and while perceptions and expectations seem like a possible explanation, I'm hesitant to fully accept it. For one, faster framerates aren't really alien to any of us; we've experienced 60i material on TV all the time, and that action never looks "sped-up".
Old 01-02-13 | 02:31 PM
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Re: The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey (Jackson, 2012) — The Reviews Thread

I think to a degree, the problem is that it looks smoother than the real world. Look straight ahead and move your hand back and forth in front of your face. There's blur, right? I think when you make the picture that smooth, it just looks unnatural to a certain segment of the population.
Old 01-02-13 | 02:40 PM
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Re: The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey (Jackson, 2012) — The Reviews Thread

Originally Posted by Jay G.
What threw me was SomethingMore mentioning seeing the sped-up action in the 24fps version also. But perhaps his perception was biased, since he had already seen the HFR version.
Yes, that is what I wrote. Thinking about it in the context of less motion blur, though, makes me reconsider my wording. I think RoboDad is right about the lack of motion blur being perceived as "quicker" motion. At least, in my case, that could be true. Since the "master" for The Hobbit is 48fps, then the 24fps version should have less motion blur than a true 24fps master. In most scenes, this shouldn't be too evident, but in quick close-ups of movement, it would be more obvious, which is why, in my own perception, the 24fps also appeared sped-up.

It's funny that, very early in this thread, some of us worried about the effect that 48fps filming would have on the 24fps presentation.
Old 01-02-13 | 02:53 PM
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Re: The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey (Jackson, 2012) — The Reviews Thread

Originally Posted by SomethingMore
If a hand moves across the screen and puts down a book in the span of less than 2 seconds, a true 24fps source would have significant motion blur. But since the source is 48fps, the motion blur is not as evident, so when converted down to 24fps, the clarity is there and the hand movement appears jittered as it jumps frame-to-frame as it moves. That could give the illusion that it's moving faster than it should.
I thought they had added motion blur to the 24fps version though. This post mentions some post-conversion:
http://www.filmbuffonline.com/FBOLNe...ng-for-hobbit/


Originally Posted by Obi-Wan Jabroni
I think to a degree, the problem is that it looks smoother than the real world. Look straight ahead and move your hand back and forth in front of your face. There's blur, right? I think when you make the picture that smooth, it just looks unnatural to a certain segment of the population.
I don't agree with this reasoning. A HFR film cannot remove motion blur that your eyes would normally perceive in the real world. If you viewed a 48fps video of a hand moving back and forth, you would see at least the same amount of motion blur as the real-world counterpart.

http://www.vulture.com/2012/12/ask-a...rame-rate.html
"We see continuously and smoothly, not in frames," notes Allison. "We don't perceive at 24 frames per second. We don't think at 24 frames per second. I've seen silly things on the Internet about how we think at 40 frames per second. But there is no perception limit."
The rest of that article has good insights about perception vs. expectations regarding HFR, although it doesn't address the "sped-up" motion specifically.


This guy has the same problem I have with the sped-up phenomena:
http://www.onepercentofyourbrain.com...ense-of-48fps/
This pattern persists throughout the film, moving from distracting sped-up seeming motion in some scenes to perfect clarity in others. And honestly, I struggle to think why this should be the case. Many criticisms, and even defences, of the technology point to the fact that, after decades of 24fps, our eyes are simply not used to the higher frame-rate. But this doesn’t explain why motion in some scenes should appear sped up to the degree that they appear unrealistic. If anything they should appear more realistic, with the added frames capturing more of the subtleties of human movement. The only answers I can come up with are that the problems lie with either the cinema equipment, or with the way certain shots and sequences were filmed or processed at the source. Indeed reports as to the quality of the HFR presentation seem to vary from screening to screening.
Old 01-02-13 | 03:02 PM
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Re: The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey (Jackson, 2012) — The Reviews Thread

Originally Posted by Jay G.
I don't agree with this reasoning. A HFR film cannot remove motion blur that your eyes would normally perceive in the real world. If you viewed a 48fps video of a hand moving back and forth, you would see at least the same amount of motion blur as the real-world counterpart.

http://www.vulture.com/2012/12/ask-a...rame-rate.html
But in the real world we have depth that we don't have on the screen (we have a simulation of it with 3D, but it's not true depth). Which is why we have motion blur. If I'm looking straight ahead the reason my hand appears blurry is because I am not focusion on it. If I focus on my hand, and follow it, my hand will not appear blurry, but the background will.

48 FPS removes this and everything on the flat surface looks clear. From your quoted article:

If there is an obvious problem with 48 FPS, Banks said, it’s still a subtle one — an element of depth distortion. Allison agreed. One of the things 48 FPS can do for you is to allow less motion blur and make the details crisper," he said. "But some things that were meant to be blurry in the background are sharper, so it's a matter of adjusting for that. Some things that are fake look fake."
Old 01-02-13 | 03:12 PM
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Re: The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey (Jackson, 2012) — The Reviews Thread

Originally Posted by Obi-Wan Jabroni
But in the real world we have depth that we don't have on the screen (we have a simulation of it with 3D, but it's not true depth). Which is why we have motion blur. If I'm looking straight ahead the reason my hand appears blurry is because I am not focusion on it. If I focus on my hand, and follow it, my hand will not appear blurry, but the background will.
You're confusing motion blur with focus blur. I just focused on my hand, and moved it back and forth. Both the background and my hand looked blurry; the background due to focus, and the hand due to motion.

You're correct that wide-angle lenses can increase the depth of field, past what human eyes could do. This is often done on 3D films to reduce eye fatigue, so that your eyes don't try to pull into focus an out-of-focus 3D image. And it's possible that adding the high depth of field and HFR together may be creating a hyper-realistic image that people are reacting to. But it doesn't explain the "sped-up" action bits. And HFR can't eliminate the motion blur you'd normally see.
Old 01-02-13 | 06:10 PM
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Re: The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey (Jackson, 2012) — The Reviews Thread

This movie appears to be the "it's not as bad as you've heard" one of the season. I liked it overall, even if it was bloated. Most reviews I've read on here seem to have enjoyed it, and audiences are still keeping it alive at the ticket counter.
Old 01-02-13 | 06:23 PM
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Re: The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey (Jackson, 2012) — The Reviews Thread

saw it today (in 2d) and have no major complaints whatsoever. if you liked the LOTR movies then you'll like this. i don't feel it dragged at all and there were plenty of action sequences so i never found it boring. there's only about 15 minutes that i would've cut personally. not sure why this is getting mixed reviews to be honest. a solid 4/5 from me.

Last edited by riotinmyskull; 01-04-13 at 11:52 AM.
Old 01-02-13 | 09:06 PM
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Re: The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey (Jackson, 2012) — The Reviews Thread

I think some people had too high expectations, but I also think that whatever backlash LOTR generated from some critics in its day sat in a dormant state until this was released.
Old 01-15-13 | 10:01 PM
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Re: The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey (Jackson, 2012) — The Reviews Thread

Finally saw this. Was in 2D DLP (24 fps apparently) and we really enjoyed it. It did seem to take a little while to find it's feet, but once it did it was great. The humor was spot on, and it was great seeing Elrond, Galadriel and Sarumon again.

And the bunny sled was frakking awesome.
Old 01-17-13 | 04:01 PM
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Re: The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey (Jackson, 2012) — The Reviews Thread

Looks like the French Blu-ray is released in April and there is word of an Extended Edition later in the year according this post:

http://www.bleedingcool.com/forums/f...ys-arrive.html
Old 01-17-13 | 04:45 PM
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Re: The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey (Jackson, 2012) — The Reviews Thread

The theatrical version of The Hobbit felt like an extended edition. I can't imagine what they're going to put in this to pad it out even further.
Old 01-17-13 | 05:47 PM
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Re: The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey (Jackson, 2012) — The Reviews Thread

Originally Posted by Josh-da-man
The theatrical version of The Hobbit felt like an extended edition. I can't imagine what they're going to put in this to pad it out even further.
More Azog and rabbit-powered sleds!
Old 01-17-13 | 09:29 PM
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Re: The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey (Jackson, 2012) — The Reviews Thread

Originally Posted by Why So Blu?
Looks like the French Blu-ray is released in April and there is word of an Extended Edition later in the year according this post:

http://www.bleedingcool.com/forums/f...ys-arrive.html
WB/New Line already confirmed an extended edition months ago
http://www.theonering.net/torwp/2012...ended-edition/
OCTOBER 4, 2012

And finally, among the new films you can expect on Blu-ray and DVD in 2013 are The Wachowskis’ Cloud Atlas and – officially confirmed here for the first time – Peter Jackson’s The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey – Extended Edition (Q4).
It's going to be about 3 hours long:
http://www.hypable.com/2012/12/08/ho...tion-run-time/
Reports indicate that the director confirmed 20 – 25 minutes of additional footage with the Extended Edition. With the theatrical version clocking in at 2 hours, 40 minutes, that means Extended Edition will run at least 3 hours.
Some indication of added scenes:
http://www.empireonline.com/news/story.asp?NID=36034
[one scene] sees Gandalf and [Bilbo as a young boy] enjoying some time together......

.... a moment in Rivendell where the dwarves get to have some fun at the elves' expense...
There's also some additional footage of Barry Humphries as the Goblin King.


Philippa Boyens mentions a deleted scene:
http://collider.com/philippa-boyens-...erview/217111/
But I’ve got one personal thing that I love that I wish was in there and you’ll see it, it’s a little thing between Bilbo and Elrond. It’s probably, within the context of the greater whole, the six films; it’s going to work really beautifully when you see Bilbo in Rivendell in Lord of the Rings
Old 01-27-13 | 01:05 AM
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Re: The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey (Jackson, 2012) — The Reviews Thread

Anything think Del Toro's version would have been better?
Old 01-27-13 | 01:11 AM
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Re: The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey (Jackson, 2012) — The Reviews Thread

Originally Posted by Osiris3657
Anything think Del Toro's version would have been better?

It would have been awesome in its own right, but don't think it would have tied in or had the same feeling as the LOTR films did.

Peter Jackson directing The Hobbit keeps that LOTR vibe that had already been set up in tact, imo.
Old 01-27-13 | 01:20 AM
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Re: The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey (Jackson, 2012) — The Reviews Thread

I imagine it would have been been less bloated and self-indulgent.
Old 01-27-13 | 09:38 AM
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Re: The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey (Jackson, 2012) — The Reviews Thread

As much as I love extended editions of, well, pretty much anything, I think it would be fun to see something like a 2 hour version of the whole thing as an extra on the blurays.
Old 01-27-13 | 10:00 AM
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Re: The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey (Jackson, 2012) — The Reviews Thread

Originally Posted by Josh-da-man
The theatrical version of The Hobbit felt like an extended edition. I can't imagine what they're going to put in this to pad it out even further.
Old Tom Bombadil!
Old 01-27-13 | 11:35 AM
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Re: The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey (Jackson, 2012) — The Reviews Thread

Some things in this movie already felt different from the LOTR trilogy. I bet GDT would have handled the goblin king better than Jackson. I understand that you cannot deny the source, but that part reminded me too much of Lucas and his prequels. I am not sure if that even makes sense, but I think it does. Too cartoony.
Old 01-27-13 | 11:44 AM
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Re: The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey (Jackson, 2012) — The Reviews Thread

Originally Posted by andy434343
Some things in this movie already felt different from the LOTR trilogy. I bet GDT would have handled the goblin king better than Jackson. I understand that you cannot deny the source, but that part reminded me too much of Lucas and his prequels. I am not sure if that even makes sense, but I think it does. Too cartoony.
Certain scenes were lighter. but The Hobbit is a lighter book than LOTR. The next two films should amp it up a bit.
Old 01-27-13 | 12:21 PM
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Re: The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey (Jackson, 2012) — The Reviews Thread

True....but if he is filming these with the intentions of matching up with the LOTR trilogy, then some slight modifications could be made in those "lighter" parts to make it fit better. The trolls are another example. That scene would never work in the LOTR trilogy. But with some slight changes to the characters I feel it could work.
Old 01-27-13 | 09:44 PM
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Re: The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey (Jackson, 2012) — The Reviews Thread

Originally Posted by andy434343
True....but if he is filming these with the intentions of matching up with the LOTR trilogy, then some slight modifications could be made in those "lighter" parts to make it fit better. The trolls are another example. That scene would never work in the LOTR trilogy. But with some slight changes to the characters I feel it could work.
Yeah, I can sort of see that.

When it comes to the novels, though, there's a big difference between The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings. The Hobbit was basically a children's fairy tale, and The Lord of the Rings was epic fantasy, even though they take place in the same continuity. The goblins and trolls in The Hobbit were right out of fairy tales, whereas the goblins (ie, orcs) and trolls in LOTR were darker creations in a more mature literary work. Ideally, Jackson should strike a balance between the two, and I think he was mostly successful.
Old 01-27-13 | 10:56 PM
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Re: The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey (Jackson, 2012) — The Reviews Thread

I feel that his choice in using cgi was a mistake.

Sure Gollem looked great in this one considering he was cgi. I always preferred the last interpretation of him before he turned into his cgi version in Return of the King. Actual actor in prostetics and makeup. It looked much more frightening than the end resulting cgi character.

The main orc in The Hobbit; Azog, should not have been cgi. Think about the main Urikah in the LOTR. It was badass because he was flesh and blood, and had a real presence on screen. Him fighting Arogon made you see how evil it was, pulling that sword deeper into its stab entry and just growling.

CGI is still not there yet, to be used in place of human actors. Jackson should know this.
Old 01-28-13 | 09:22 PM
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Re: The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey (Jackson, 2012) — The Reviews Thread

Originally Posted by andy434343
Sure Gollem looked great in this one considering he was cgi. I always preferred the last interpretation of him before he turned into his cgi version in Return of the King. Actual actor in prostetics and makeup. It looked much more frightening than the end resulting cgi character.


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