Here's the thing- ROTJ is not a standalone film. It ONLY exists to be the resolving act of a three part story in which SW and ESB are the first two acts. Therefore you can't really evaluate it's quality as a film without judging how well it resolves the material that has been established. And taken on that criteria, the film is ....not good.

I'm always pissing in the wind here on this subject.

All I can say is go read Brad Birds forward to the Making of Return Of The Jedi book. The guy knows a little about storytelling and his reaction as a teen walking out of the film in '83 was EXACTLY the same one that I had.
He goes on (briefly) to check off all the things we should have seen in the film, but didn't- character behavior, established conflict resolutions- not set pieces. And not only that, we see these characters behaving in direct contradiction to what we should be seeing.

Then you can go on and read the snatches of story conference transcripts where Kasden's frustration- at how foolishly Lucas is steering the material- is amusingly obvious. With each conference, the story goes further and further down the crapper until pretty much all of the consistent characterization has been stripped away and we are left with empty action figures who seem to have little connection to the players in the first two film- apart from being essayed by the same actors and parroting similar 'call back' lines periodically.

Yeah I know that it has problems. I guess I just can still enjoy it for what it is despite its imperfections.

And that's fine. Your enjoyment is yours. I love some films that are crap. And I know they are. RotJ isn't crap per se but... it's a very flawed thing that betrays what was set up before it. As a narrative, it's so wrong in what it did in a lot of things. Yet... it pumped out some amazing scenes too.

I really wish ROTJ was the film that so many devoted fans want to believe it is.
I wish you guys (and myself) had gotten a resolving chapter that deserved 30+ years of fervent love and devotion. Something that would have been an amazing experience when you saw it at the theater as an eight year old, but that had layers you could only unfold and understand with advancing life experience- instead of being a film you need to regress back to being an eight year old to feel the wonder of.

It will be interesting to see if Kasden's frustration in '81 will translate into this being an opportunity to pull the material back to it's original trajectory. Or if it's just going to be another endless series of "remember when you first saw this? Well look how much more impressive it is now with 21st century technology!"

Kinzler's ROTJ book is highly recommended - really enlightening as to what could have been. All of them are great, actually, but ROTJ is particularly well done.

Anyone starting to think Han isn't going to die? Harrison Ford said himself he's glad he wasn't killed off now. Like the post above. I doubt they would waste No Luke and Han moment. Not saying Han will make it through all of them, but...

as much as I don't want to see it, I'm more and more convinced that he's a goner... maybe Chewie too.

At first I thought Han wouldn't make it through the film but I'm not sure I'm convinced. It almost seems too obvious and like something people would expect the filmmakers to do. I think he'll probably pass at some point during the new trilogy but I'm not sure it'll be this film.

I don't care if he does or doesn't.

I don't think he will. But I can see it happening.

All i care about is that it's a good movie. Movie deaths for beloved characters are hard things to do right. I could see Kasdan making right with it though.

While Ford might legitimately be happy he's back in the role, I have a feeling the only reason he agreed to do this movie is if they killed Han. I just don't see him wanting to continue with the franchise beyond helping the re-launch. Besides, it's pretty obvious this story is about the new characters.

ROTJ thoughts: I really liked the movie as a six year old. However, even at that age I thought some of the plot seemed a bit off. The biggest one was how many coincidences had to fall into place for Luke to successfully rescue Han. That had to be the most convoluted rescue plan in history. Also, the whole idea of Luke and Leia being twins was a cop out end to what could have been an intriguing story. Still, it is a fun time.

I think what could happen is that Han makes it through The Force Awakens but dies early on in Episode VIII. That way he's back enough to please the fanboys by being in a full film, gets some time on screen with Luke in the next film (if it's true that Luke isn't in the new film much), and the new audience that haven't seen the Original Trilogy possibly get a chance to be more attached to him so that when he does die it has more impact rather than just being the old guy that dies by the end of the new film.

I don't think the idea of Luke and Leia being twins is that horrible other than the fact that she kissed him twice. There's at least two hints in The Empire Strikes Back that Leia is the other Force sensitive hope for the Jedi (Yoda's line about there being another and Leia sensing Luke is in trouble through the Force seemingly and directing Lando to go back to look for him) and I don't think the revelation in Return of the Jedi is as much of a cop out as some do.

Yet you do think the idea of an aged Bruce Wayne whose employees have died not acting like a playboy at a public gathering is a bad thing.

I think Chewie is a goner. There's even a scene in one of the trailers that seems to show Rey crying over something brown and furry.

maybe her first lesbian experience?

Han and Chewie need to go out Butch and Sundance style.

I'm damn near positive that's Finn. You see the sleeve of his tan jacket on the left. I think what people are seeing as hair (on the right over his head) are actually branches in the background. There are similar braches on the left, over what looks like his elbow.



Anyway, I'm sure Chewie will be safe. No reason to kill off a beloved character that only requires a tall guy in a suit to play him. While I'm glad Mayhew is back, I doubt I'll be able to tell the difference between him and the stand-in.

I actually think that Luke is already dead and that he died sometime ago. I think we will see him here in there like we did Obi Wan.

Could be the scene from the trailers where Finn is fighting Kylo, but then gets his ass kicked, only for Rey to pick up the light saber and go all Jedi on Kylo's ass.

^ From the bright light on her face, I'm guessing this is post-duel and the rescue party has just showed up to save them.

People magazine has been releasing tidbits from their Force Awakens issue: First, Abrams confirms there will be no mid or post-credits scene (of course). Second, Andy Serkis clarifies the appearance of Snoke. He's not nearly as tall as Empire magazine inferred in their article.

Looked at the ESB soundtrack. Imperial March and Train g of a Jedi Knight / Magic Tree are great. Anyone have other favorites from the ESB soundtrack?

I had thought Rey built BB-8 herself but the RUMORED soundtrack listing (Re meets BB-8) seems to suggest that she didn't build him.

^ "Yoda's Theme" is amazing. I rewatched ESB this morning and was reminded why it's still my favorite movie of all time. So many feels...

He's happy because he'll make millions off the new movie.

Absolutely spot on post. I have a feeling if they'd gone in a different direction than the Ewoks people wouldn't be complaining much at all about Jedi.

The opening in Jabba's palace is one of my favorite segments of the trilogy. The stuff on Endor not involving the Ewoks was awesome too.

You're posts made me realize I hate Return of the Jedi.

But seriously, a lot of what you said is true. After reading what ROTJ would have been and what you pointed out, it could have really been great.

Vader saying "it's too late for me son," and Luke sounding so simple and childish, "there's still good in you father," was a step backwards from Empire Strikes Back. The Emperor was a big cartoon too. "Yes, kill him so you can take his place." Why would he say that for? Obviously Luke is going to hear that and want to do the opposite.

Endor being populated by Wookies or misunderstood serpent men would have been cool. Vader sounding more like his ESB self would have been better. And Han being rescued only to die in battle, and Luke walking into the distance to wander the galaxy and look for his twin sister (who is NOT Leia) would have been an interesting ending that made you think more. The ending of ROTJ was a little too neatly wrapped.

I can see why Lucas just wanted to wrap things up though. He originally had some big story ideas, but his original goal was to make a homage to the sci-fi serials of yesteryear. He got that and when it turned out to be more successful, he got stressed out in the process, managing everything, going through things, and he felt he had other responsibilities. That's what happens when you spread yourself too thin.

There are many things that come to mind when I watch ROTJ:

-Tired. As someone stated earlier in the thread, it looks like Lucas was going through the motions on this movie, and just wanted to tie everything up in a nice bow, and sort of undo's everything great about ESB. Just think if the 'other' was not Leia, and we could meet the 'other' in this movie who is as powerful as Luke. Leia could have still been a general married to Han in TFA, and they could have hired some actress in her late 50's who was still in good shape to be a jedi like Luke as his sister.

-Pacing: The movie has some serious pacing and editing issues compared to ANH & ESB. ROTJ comes comes to a complete halt at certain parts of the movie, as you could probably edit out about 15 minutes when they first meet the Ewoks.

-Throne Room: The Throne Room scenes alone are the reason why its better then any PT movie. Sure ROTJ has its flaws, but it got right the main scene in the movie between Emperor/Luke/Vader, and the payoff is more then enough to compensate for the other parts that don't work.

-Special Edition: Good god the Special Edition changes made this an even worse movie. The Jedi Rocks addition should have been a red herring to all of us in 1997 that Lucas & McCallum were out of touch in what's cool in the SW universe. Vader's 'no' addition is so uneccessary and again shows that Lucas doesn't understand that you don't have to spell out everything to the viewer. And the ultimate change that I still say is worse then Greedo shooting first is the addition of Hayden as a Force Ghost, and a big F-U to all of the fans that hate the PT. It makes no sense because Lucas's rationale is that Anakin died in ROTS, but misses the whole point of ROTJ where there is still good in him and that saves Luke at the end.