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-   -   EVERYTHING that was wrong with INDY4.... (https://forum.dvdtalk.com/movie-talk/587616-everything-wrong-indy4.html)

GoldenJCJ 02-17-11 11:05 AM

Re: EVERYTHING that was wrong with INDY4....
 
My only real gripe about Indy 4 is its lack of scale. This was an Indiana Jones movie 20 years in the making! It should have been epic. At least on par with Raiders or The Last Crusade. To me Raiders felt like it was filmed in the Middle East, Last Crusade felt like it was filmed throughout Europe, and Indy 4 felt like it was filmed on a studio backlot. There's an overhead shot of the cemetery that looks peculiarly like a miniature, The South American Village scenes were shot so tight that they looked like backlot scenes, and the jungle had way too much CGI for my tastes.

To me the opening warehouse scene is the best sequence in the entire movie. It fits perfectly with the rest of the series. IMO, it's an Indiana Jones movie at its best!

The college Campus chase sequence was also fantastically done. It was fun and energetic throughout. I loved the smirk that Mutt gives to Indy only to have Indy glare back at him. I was a great callback to The Last Crusade when Indy gives that same smirk to his dad only to have Henry Sr. glare back at him.

superdeluxe 02-17-11 01:23 PM

Re: EVERYTHING that was wrong with INDY4....
 

Originally Posted by pbishop69 (Post 10641525)
Hello Friends!


Big Indiana Jones fan here. I've been still reading in this forum lately that people are still convinced that CRYSTAL SKULL was a DECENT film......even though it didn't compare with the original trilogy. I've compiled a list of just about EVERYTHING that went wrong in INDY 4. It's one of the worst sequels of ALL-TIME imo. Again, that's coming from a franchise where the original film was GREAT!! Hope you guys get a kick out of this list.


1. How many shots did we need of Groundhogs? None, but we got 4 or 5.

2. Using "HOUND DOG" by Elvis during opening credits. I get it Lucas....we are in the 50s now.

3. The Warehouse. What was the point of having the opening sequence take place in the warehouse from the end of RAIDERS? Just so we can have that one quick shot of the ark as Lucas winks at the camera.

4. Why is there a working tv playing Howdy Doody in that fake house with lead fridge?

5. Why is there a mannequin watering his fake front yard?

6. Nuke fridge. Need I say more?

7. Indy getting his privates scrubbed because of possible radiation exposure. Yeah Lucas, very Funny.

8. Why are there publicity stills of Henry Sr. and Willie from the other films in Indy's house?

9. Shia LaBeouf. Can someone tell Hollywood to stop matching this kid up with A-List actors? He is a tv actor AT BEST!

10. How did Mutt know Indy was at the train station? And just in time as the train was leaving.

11. Mutt's hair. Worst greaser hair since Fonzie.

12. What was with Mutt's switchblade? He never used it for anything! So why show he is handy with one? It that supposed to connect up with the sword fighting on the jeeps? Still doesn't make sense.

13. The motorcycle chase through the campus. One of the most uninspired action sequences I've ever seen! I actually went to Yale in June of '07 to watch them shoot this piece of shit.

14. Indy and Mutt at the graveyard. You had these things jumping out of trees and Indy hitting them with shovels. ZZZZZzzzzz

15. Mutt: "You're a teacher?" Indy: "Part time." Just a terrible piece of dialogue. David Koepp is one of the worst and most overrated screenwriters in Hollywood.

16. Indy and Mutt enter cave and find crystal skull. This whole scene is SO BORING and it goes on FOREVER!!! I actually forgot what they were doing here after a while.

17. Indy and Mutt reach prison where Oxley was staying. In this scene, we have to watch Mutt cry for some reason. Good Lord!

18. Cate Blanchett. Women don't make good villians...PERIOD! Especially if they are written by David Keopp. Listen to all her dialog next time. It's all cliched nonsense!

19. The scene where Indy is getting brainwashed by skull in tent with Spalko. More boring stuff.

20. Marion. She was AWSOME in the first film. Here she has NOTHING to do! The first meeting between her and Indy is written so poorly beyond belief. And watch how bad Ford is in this scene. His acting is just terrible.

21. The scene in quicksand. This scene was SO BAD for so many reasons. The snake. The dialog. Marion's confession that Mutt is Indy's son. This scene was so bad, I remember feeling embarrassed for the filmmakers. I wanted to turn my head away from the screen at this point.

22. John Hurt. All he does in this film is mumble.

23. Indy having to solve these stupid riddles/puzzles. ZZZZzzzz

24. The jungle chase. Another uninspired action sequence. I remember producer Frank Marshall saying that this scene was on par with the truck chase in RAIDERS. Is he out of his friggin mind? We get boring sword fighting, Mutt getting hit in the balls with trees and Mutt swinging from vines with monkeys. Embarrassing!

25. The waterfall sequence. We get Indy and Co. going over 3 waterfalls. Wow.....pretty exciting.

26. No one seems to mention this, but after the waterfall sequence and they all reach land, Marion is still pretending she is driving the truck by holding the steering wheel. Wtf???

27. Ants? It's bad enough we get ants this time, but CGI ants? They couldn't even give us the real thing.

28. Mac. He kept going back and forth between good and bad. Who cares?! His character was so pointless. I mean that too!

29. The ENTIRE 3rd act! All this stuff is just nonsense. Bad acting, bad CGI ect....

30. Indy getting married. Why did we need to see this? You can imply it, but don't show it.

31. John Williams. He is a GOD! But this is one of the WORST soundtracks he's ever done. But how do you compose to crap? Even his scores for THE PREQUELS were just God awful. But once again, how do you compose to crap? Try to hum a theme (besides the main theme) from this film. You can't do it..can you?



Pbishop69


-popcorn-

maingon 02-17-11 01:36 PM

Re: EVERYTHING that was wrong with INDY4....
 
I enjoyed the movie. I dont get most of your complaints of the movie. Movie isnt great but I enjoyed it. I had a fun time watching it. Its not great like the other Indy movies but its a fun movie. Just dont compare it to the others.

The only thing that made my cringe was Shia LeBouf swinging around like Tarzan and the monkeys who follow him.

Meglos 02-17-11 02:07 PM

Re: EVERYTHING that was wrong with INDY4....
 

Originally Posted by pbishop69 (Post 10641525)
Hello Friends!

18. Cate Blanchett. Women don't make good villians...PERIOD!

http://i53.tinypic.com/fegaqe.jpg

http://i53.tinypic.com/2dvswtk.jpg

http://i55.tinypic.com/2n1uli.jpg

http://i56.tinypic.com/ehk652.jpg

Terrell 02-17-11 02:12 PM

Re: EVERYTHING that was wrong with INDY4....
 
Not once through all your ranting did you even mention the man who directed the film, and was probably just as responsible for every negative thing, if not more responsible. Steven Spielberg probably had more control than anyone once actual filming started. For all of Lucas' faults, he didn't write or direct this film. His only credit was story credits and executive producer, meaning he paid for the film.

As for Darabont's script, I've read the script online that is supposedly his Indy IV screenplay, and if it is indeed the real thing, then Lucas killing it was the best decision he's made in 15 years.

wm lopez 02-17-11 02:21 PM

Re: EVERYTHING that was wrong with INDY4....
 
The Temple of Doom hate I don't understand. It's a dark movie and DVDTALK memebers like dark anything. Indy 4 is more like Phantom Menace and that hate I do understand.
I myself liked 3 out of 4 Indy movies. The one I didn't like was Indy 3.
I liked all 6 Star Wars too.

Meglos 02-17-11 03:32 PM

Re: EVERYTHING that was wrong with INDY4....
 
I bet:

This thread locked in less than a day.

A certain forum member suspended quite soon.

Any takers?

Josh-da-man 02-17-11 03:33 PM

Re: EVERYTHING that was wrong with INDY4....
 
The thing that I really love about "Temple of Doom" is that it's completely different from "Raiders of the Lost Ark." It isn't just a retread, it's a completely different movie with Indiana Jones in it, but still fits comfortably in the mythology established in Raiders.

The flying saucer, not so much.

Giles 02-17-11 03:50 PM

Re: EVERYTHING that was wrong with INDY4....
 

Originally Posted by Meglos (Post 10643129)
I bet:

This thread locked in less than a day.

A certain forum member suspended quite soon.

Any takers?

hmmm... me thinks: __________

Dr. DVD 02-17-11 03:54 PM

Re: EVERYTHING that was wrong with INDY4....
 

Originally Posted by Josh-da-man (Post 10643130)
The thing that I really love about "Temple of Doom" is that it's completely different from "Raiders of the Lost Ark." It isn't just a retread, it's a completely different movie with Indiana Jones in it, but still fits comfortably in the mythology established in Raiders.

The flying saucer, not so much.


I also don't get all of the hate for Temple of Doom. I don't buy into all of the hate for Crystal Skull, but I don't get how it seems to get less hate than Temple of Doom. ToD was the first VHS movie I ever owned when I was 10, and boy did I wear that thing out from the amount of times I watched it. Raiders is the better movie, but Temple grabs you in the first scene and doesn't let up until the very end.
I too enjoy how it went into a different, darker, direction for the second outing(though it occurs first in the series). Lucas himself said that was meant to reflect the way he approached ESB. What I find disappointing is that in both cases, instead of continuing the path of something new and interesting with the characters, Lucas seemed to play it safe and be formulaic with each subsequent effort. ESB was the most interesting SW movie, but after that one it was about as cookie cutter as possible (Sith being somewhat of a callback to Empire, which is probably why it's the only prequel I truly like ) . Same with Indy. In fact, if you were to watch them in chronological order, it's something interesting and different followed by something even better and more uplifting, then two plots more or less copied from the second in terms of story progression within the plots.

brayzie 02-17-11 04:06 PM

Re: EVERYTHING that was wrong with INDY4....
 
I'm surprised that people dislike Temple of Doom as well. I felt like The Last Crusade was step backwards. There's alot of different pulp themes and villains they could have used from that era, but instead they bring the Nazi world domination plot back. It still was enjoyable though.

I agree that this last Jones movie felt like it was all a big set. The 30s and 40s seems to be a more interesting time to create stories in, instead of the 50s. There could have been a film earlier on when Harrison Ford was still young but supposedly George Lucas couldn't come up with any good stories.

Groucho 02-17-11 04:18 PM

Re: EVERYTHING that was wrong with INDY4....
 

Originally Posted by wm lopez (Post 10642980)
DVDTALK memebers like dark anything.

So does Miley Cyrus, if the rumors are to be believed.

Originally Posted by Dick Van Dork (Post 106430152)
Presley's Hound Dog is one of the easiest ways to tell/show/inform people that they are in the 1950's. It is one of the iconic Presley songs and iconci songs from the 50's. How the fuck would you have done it in under 5 seconds like the movie did, moron?

Flash text on the screen: 1957.

whoopdido 02-17-11 04:52 PM

Re: EVERYTHING that was wrong with INDY4....
 
Just a thought but maybe Doom gets the hate because MOST people find it vastly inferior to Raiders and at least somewhat inferior to Crusade. Now, I know just in this thread that some people have said that Crusade is their least favorite of the 3, but I believe that the general consensus is that the order of preference goes Raiders, Crusade and then Doom, so in that respect Doom is kind of like the red headed middle child of a great series.

arminius 02-17-11 04:59 PM

Re: EVERYTHING that was wrong with INDY4....
 
I also liked Temple alot. It was completely different than Raiders but retained the feel of the original. I thought Crusade and Skull were both weak but watchable. My biggest problem with Skull was the complete indifference they showed Karen Allen. She was a big part of how good Raiders was and not only the best female character in any of those films but of any films. That really disappointed me more than anything else.

Eric D. 02-17-11 05:15 PM

Re: EVERYTHING that was wrong with INDY4....
 
Temple of Doom is actually my favorite of the original three films. A lot of that has to do with nostalgia and the fact that it was the first Indiana Jones film I saw as a little kid. I liked the fact that it had a mixture of horror and adventure and there was a kid that I could relate to. Granted, I haven't seen it again since it hit DVD, but my opinion of it didn't change much when I saw it again.

TomOpus 02-17-11 06:15 PM

Re: EVERYTHING that was wrong with INDY4....
 
I think there are more posts in this thread that mentions Temple of Doom than Crystal Skull... :lol:

whoopdido 02-17-11 06:33 PM

Re: EVERYTHING that was wrong with INDY4....
 

Originally Posted by arminius (Post 10643284)
I also liked Temple alot. It was completely different than Raiders but retained the feel of the original. I thought Crusade and Skull were both weak but watchable. My biggest problem with Skull was the complete indifference they showed Karen Allen. She was a big part of how good Raiders was and not only the best female character in any of those films but of any films. That really disappointed me more than anything else.

Wait...are you saying that Marion Ravenwood is the best female character in the history of cinema? Better than say Scarlett O'Hara, Ellen Ripley, Sarah Connor, Princess Leia and Clarice Starling just to name a few?

Solid Snake 02-17-11 07:21 PM

Re: EVERYTHING that was wrong with INDY4....
 
Yeah...cuz...as much as I love Marion...she's no Ripley. You know...she kind of changed things.

The Antipodean 02-17-11 08:02 PM

Re: EVERYTHING that was wrong with INDY4....
 
A lot of people and critics HATED Temple of Doom in 84 when it came out. I was in 7th grade or so and remember many friends saying how much it stank. I kinda like it myself but it's very different in tone than Raiders. I do like it better than Last Crusade though, which went too over the top and I found Sean Connery's Dad rather one-note.

Dr. DVD 02-17-11 09:02 PM

Re: EVERYTHING that was wrong with INDY4....
 

Originally Posted by Sierra Disc (Post 10643544)
A lot of people and critics HATED Temple of Doom in 84 when it came out. I was in 7th grade or so and remember many friends saying how much it stank. I kinda like it myself but it's very different in tone than Raiders. I do like it better than Last Crusade though, which went too over the top and I found Sean Connery's Dad rather one-note.

I don't remember it getting that much hate when it came out. What I DO remember is not being able to see it as I was only 7 and so many people were calling it inappropriate for kids. It was that movie that more or less necessitated the invention of PG-13, despite being PG itself. However, I did see Gremlins which was also allegedly responsible.
I had to settle for the movie story tape (the ones that had narration over the movie itself; these were just about as close as you could come to experiencing the movie without seeing it) and the story book full of photos from the movie. I was so happy that I had learned to read that previous school year.

I have to say to this day ToD is the only Indy movie I have yet to see in theaters, but have probably seen more times than any of them. I was able to catch Raiders at a theater near my hometown that was showing an anniversary restoration print.

Oh, Crystal Skull was still an entertaining experience despite its flaws, have to keep the thread on topic! :D

Josh-da-man 02-18-11 12:19 AM

Re: EVERYTHING that was wrong with INDY4....
 
Alexandra DuPont's defense of "Temple of Doom":


Dear God: You really are going to mount a quixotic defense of Temple of Doom, aren't you?

I'm afraid so. Most people hate it. I sort of love it. In fact, if I feel like spinning an Indy movie in the background in the years to come, I can pretty much guarantee that it will be the last 40 minutes of Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom.

Mind you, I'll be the first to admit that Temple of Doom has deeply embedded problems, and that there are popular reasons for disliking it — even hating it. The dialogue is ham-fisted. (I invariably cringe during the "What are you — a lion tamer?"/"I'm allowing you to tag along" exchange. "A lion." "Allowing." A homophone! I get it!) It's surprisingly brutal in the middle. In women's-lib terms, Kate Capshaw's scream-queen Willie Scott is such a step backward from Marion Ravenwood that I'm mildly surprised NOW didn't picket the screenings. (The future Mrs. Spielberg, God bless her, got handed a terribly written role — Willie's the shrieking Jar-Jar of the Indiana Jones series.) And let's not even get into the film's retro-colonialist overtones (which I find sort of perversely funny, but still). And the film is so different from its predecessor — confined largely to one locale, not as sophisticated or quest-driven, and very nearly Satanic in its depictions of evil — that it really couldn't help but let viewers down. And the bad blood persists to this day: Several people who knew I had this DVD box a week early made a point of expressing their jealousy — but also invariably went out of their way to slam "the second one."

Still, despite all that, I managed to find not one but two DVDJ staffers who absolutely adore Temple of Doom — and we gave the platter a spin, in the dark, on a flat-screen HDTV with six-channel sound. And we three geeks arrived at the following list of reasons to love the flick:

1. That unimpeachably awesome opening fight over the diamond and antidote, which contains tributes to classic musicals and Hitchcock and just absolutely rocks the house;

2. Ke Huy Kwan as Short Round, who — despite being handed cute-kid dialogue that includes the lines "Hold onto your potatoes!" and "You call him Doctah Jones, DOLL!" — is quite possibly the most likeable and least obtrusive child sidekick in movie history. Check out the wonderful, genuinely warm give-and-take between Kwan and Ford as they play poker or exchange hats;

3. That "Nice try, Lao Che!" visual gag;

4. Harrison Ford's terrific performance — arguably his best as Jones. I love how Indy stars out as a total greedy asshole, with strong shades of Bogart in Treasure of Sierra Madre, and how there's a distinct character arc as he evolves into a Pied-Piper/holy avenger;

5. The movie's look — again, the best in the series — with its striking wide-angle close ups of Indy's face and strong use of reds and shadows. Temple of Doom is a manual on how to use color in film, no joke. (As one DVDJ staffer [who, BTW, owns the original July 1984 issue of American Cinematographer devoted to Temple of Doom] put it, "This movie contains Spielberg's busiest frames, and it's all beautiful. It's a pornography of cinematography");

6. John Williams' score, which is among his very best — expanding richly on the original and adding wonderful themes for Short Round and the slave children;

7. Vampire bats! Severed thumbs!

8. The matte paintings of Pankot Palace, which are among the best matte paintings ever;

9. The sexy, playful, totally '80s, beautifully edited cat-and-mouse sequence where way-horny Indy and Willie are trying to out-wait each other, only to have the flirtation interrupted by a Thuggee assassin. (How can you not love the way that thug steps out of that wall mural?);

10. The super-icky, super-taut bug-tunnel and death-trap set piece, which is a perfect transition between the palace and the Temple of Doom and which very nearly kicks the ass of the Well of Souls sequence (it certainly makes your skin crawl more) and features that great closing gag where Indy grabs his hat as the door's closing;

11. The way the movie shifts so abruptly into scenes of human sacrifice and child cruelty. I'm sorry, I just love what a cinema bomb Spielberg and Lucas drop here: Yes, the horror's laid on a bit thick, but come on — how totally cathartic are those last 40 minutes as a result, when Indy snaps out of the Black Sleep of Kali and dishes out the hurt to faceless Thuggee goons?

12. That little 1940s tip of the hat Indy gives to that cobra statue as he's stealing the stones — a perfect Bogart moment;

13. Amrish Puri as Mola Ram — by far the scariest and most depraved villain in the series. He's mindlessly scary like Orcs are scary, you know? As one fellow staffer put it, he looks like what Abe Vigoda would look like if he were a sadistic Indian child molester;

14. The way Indiana Jones doesn't just look drugged when he's in the Black Sleep of Kali, but instead looks like he's really into all the sadism and blood, like he's actually tapped into some dark part of his personality that was there all along;

15. And, best of all, the movie's final 40 minutes, which are inventive and cathartic and full of righteous fury and pain and thrilling action — it's Lucas and Spielberg working out all their action-geek demons without apology, and God bless 'em for it. I mean, has any movie ever piled one action sequence on top of the next so successfully? That voodoo conveyor-belt fight followed by the mine-car chase followed by the water tunnel followed by the dual-swordsman tango followed by the rope-bridge blowout? With all kinds of semi-perverse shots like the one where both Indy and Short Round are beating the crap out of age-appropriate foes?


Really. The movie's aged well. Better than you might think. Give it a second chance. It's total geek crack.

Michael Corvin 02-18-11 06:46 AM

Re: EVERYTHING that was wrong with INDY4....
 

Originally Posted by Dr. DVD (Post 10643619)
I don't remember it getting that much hate when it came out.

Oh you should have seen the forum, it was crazy.

andy434343 02-18-11 10:48 AM

Re: EVERYTHING that was wrong with INDY4....
 
It could have been worse......P-Diddy could have been in it.

nando820 02-18-11 12:07 PM

Re: EVERYTHING that was wrong with INDY4....
 
I didn't appreciate the fact that they talked about the Incas and the Mayas as if they were the same thing, The Incas were centered in Peru and Mayas in Central America all the way up to Mexico not even in the same Continent and they were completely different cultures. Why couldn't they just chose one for their story. But no they had to mention both so they can offend more people.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3191/...acc1b64d22.jpg

Not even when they are flying in Peru do they show the right location for Cusco. The map shows them going to Nasca which is a dessert in the Coast whereas Cusco is in the Andes. I mean it takes 2 minutes to wiki a map no?

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3148/...bc5_z.jpg?zz=1http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2121/...5b4f549c67.jpg
Plane Flying on Nazca Lines

Ash Ketchum 02-18-11 12:16 PM

Re: EVERYTHING that was wrong with INDY4....
 

Originally Posted by Michael Corvin (Post 10643975)
Oh you should have seen the forum, it was crazy.

Yeah, I remember arguing about it with friends on the street afterwards, too. (The ONLY way we could share our thoughts about a movie with like-minded people back then.)

arminius 02-18-11 12:21 PM

Re: EVERYTHING that was wrong with INDY4....
 

Originally Posted by whoopdido (Post 10643404)
Wait...are you saying that Marion Ravenwood is the best female character in the history of cinema? Better than say Scarlett O'Hara, Ellen Ripley, Sarah Connor, Princess Leia and Clarice Starling just to name a few?


Originally Posted by Solid Snake PAC (Post 10643479)
Yeah...cuz...as much as I love Marion...she's no Ripley. You know...she kind of changed things.

Yeah, I worded that poorly.

She was a big part of how good Raiders was and not only the best female character in any of those films but one of the best in any film.

GoldenJCJ 02-18-11 12:28 PM

Re: EVERYTHING that was wrong with INDY4....
 

Originally Posted by Ash Ketchum (Post 10644449)
Yeah, I remember arguing about it with friends on the street afterwards, too. (The ONLY way we could share our thoughts about a movie with like-minded people back then.)

Face-to-face? Like savages?!

GuessWho 02-18-11 07:27 PM

Re: EVERYTHING that was wrong with INDY4....
 
My take.

It was fine for what it's supposed to be: a reflection of the time.

The original movies took place in the 1930s and took the tone of what was big then -- action serials.

The new movie took place in the 1950s and took the tone of what was big then -- cheesy alien sci-fi drive-in movies


I hope that Indy 8 takes place in the 1980s so we can get a music montage of Indy "gearing up" ;)

whoopdido 02-18-11 09:34 PM

Re: EVERYTHING that was wrong with INDY4....
 

Originally Posted by arminius (Post 10644465)
Yeah, I worded that poorly.

She was a big part of how good Raiders was and not only the best female character in any of those films but one of the best in any film.

There ya go. I'd definitely agree with that. I guess I don't know if I could pick THE best female character ever (probably Ripley) but Marion would be up there...just not the best of all time.

Josh-da-man 02-19-11 12:01 AM

Re: EVERYTHING that was wrong with INDY4....
 

Originally Posted by GuessWho (Post 10645225)
My take.
I hope that Indy 8 takes place in the 1980s so we can get a music montage of Indy "gearing up" ;)

...and then he says "I'm gettin' too old for this shit."

Dr. DVD 02-19-11 08:38 AM

Re: EVERYTHING that was wrong with INDY4....
 

Originally Posted by GuessWho (Post 10645225)

I hope that Indy 8 takes place in the 1980s so we can get a music montage of Indy "gearing up" ;)

I just had this mental image of Indy getting his whip out of the closet and grabbing a walking cane with "You're the Best" (from Karate Kid) blasting away. :lol:


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