The Dark Knight Rises (Nolan)
05-02-10 | 05:57 PM
#501
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re: The Dark Knight Rises (Nolan)
Art is artifice. That's no great reveal for most of us who've studied storytelling in even a cursory way.
The question is whether narratives artists can get their audiences to swallow the turns of events their stories portray. The Dark Knight did that overwhelmingly well, and though I had a few issues with the movie (including that closing monologue that I also found way too spot on), I didn't find the film unbelievable or, more importantly, predictable. Nolan's Batman series is like Die Hard to the extent that the filmmakers have placed a fantasy story within a world that seems otherwise normal.
I'd also like to point out that even the most realistic television and film productions that have reached the screen are complete works of artifice. The Wire may purport to be realistic, but like Die Hard or Batman, the success of the series depends entirely on the question of what you can expect audiences to buy.
The question is whether narratives artists can get their audiences to swallow the turns of events their stories portray. The Dark Knight did that overwhelmingly well, and though I had a few issues with the movie (including that closing monologue that I also found way too spot on), I didn't find the film unbelievable or, more importantly, predictable. Nolan's Batman series is like Die Hard to the extent that the filmmakers have placed a fantasy story within a world that seems otherwise normal.
I'd also like to point out that even the most realistic television and film productions that have reached the screen are complete works of artifice. The Wire may purport to be realistic, but like Die Hard or Batman, the success of the series depends entirely on the question of what you can expect audiences to buy.
05-02-10 | 06:43 PM
#502
Banned by request
re: The Dark Knight Rises (Nolan)
I could get deep into the minutiae of this one aspect but I was really just giving that as one example of how superficially Nolan has embellished his initial premise. The fact is there are many, many instances, large and small, in the film that ring false for me.
-a major metropolitan hospital can be completely evacuated in under an hour? The logistics of that alone are impossible, but when you factor in that the evac is initiated because of a non specific threat (as opposed to them actually finding rigged explosives on the premises) it's impossible to take seriously. Thankfully not one person gets hurt
-a father is in a situation begging for the life of his young son from someone gruesomely unhinged, and barely escapes with his life- yet not 10 minutes later he is calmly and soberly pontificating (as his becalmed tow headed offspring stands at his side) on what the city needs. Part this is a criticism of the content (we get a pretentious speech about the films themes, rather than dialogue showing Gordon reacting like a real father would in the situation) and part is the style (the kid would most likely be off being comforted by the mother, not standing around oogling the corpse of the guy who nearly murdered him) but the passage is an epic fail for me in any case. It fails in terms of the films internal logic (as was hashed out in previous posts) and it fails in basic execution.
-the getaway bus disappearing in a sea of slow moving traffic.
and on and on and on....
all of this should illustrate how extensive the 'turn off your brain and go with the flow' nature of this film is. And yet that is the absolute antithesis of the kind of film it's fans so passionately believe it to be.
05-02-10 | 06:49 PM
#503
DVD Talk Legend
re: The Dark Knight Rises (Nolan)
When Nolan has anything close to penguins with little rockets guided by satelite under the city to bomb us all we'll talk.
05-02-10 | 09:26 PM
#504
DVD Talk Hero
re: The Dark Knight Rises (Nolan)
I get that the MCU cops were hand-picked by Gordon and the bulletin board always gets a laugh or a smile from me (as it's intended to do). However, it's a hard pill to swallow that the mob can get two corrupt cops into Gordon's good graces (enough that he would refuse to heed Dent's warnings regarding the two that end up betraying them) but IAB is incapable of doing the same?
I would hate to be a tax payer in Gotham with some asshole vigilante running around causing as much property destruction as the criminals he seeks to bring in. Except for the property destruction, Batman hanging with the cops was veering into Adam West territory.
That said, despite their flaws, the Nolan films are the truest adaptations to date. (And Burton's movies are less Batman movies than they are "what if Tim Burton created Batman" movies.) However, I won't be surprised to see them surpassed one day.
I would hate to be a tax payer in Gotham with some asshole vigilante running around causing as much property destruction as the criminals he seeks to bring in. Except for the property destruction, Batman hanging with the cops was veering into Adam West territory.
That said, despite their flaws, the Nolan films are the truest adaptations to date. (And Burton's movies are less Batman movies than they are "what if Tim Burton created Batman" movies.) However, I won't be surprised to see them surpassed one day.
05-03-10 | 06:38 AM
#505
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
re: The Dark Knight Rises (Nolan)
It sounds to me like you barely bought into the basic premise of the film if you let so much minutiae get to you.
The main exception to this now being the coda of which TDK is a direct continuation.
The question is whether narratives artists can get their audiences to swallow the turns of events their stories portray. The Dark Knight did that overwhelmingly well, and though I had a few issues with the movie (including that closing monologue that I also found way too spot on), I didn't find the film unbelievable or, more importantly, predictable.
But I'm surprised people on their second, third or fourth viewings of this are not bothered by the way Nolan uses 'reality' only when it is convenient, and ignores it when it isn't. I would think, given the ways people bitch about other films, that this cafeteria style approach to keeping it real, would be a bigger source of contention than it is.
Batman hanging with the cops was veering into Adam West territory.
That said, despite their flaws, the Nolan films are the truest adaptations to date. (And Burton's movies are less Batman movies than they are "what if Tim Burton created Batman" movies.) However, I won't be surprised to see them surpassed one day.
Given all my criticisms, to admit these are the best (modern) Batman adaptations so far shows how little I think of the first four films.
The Adam West material is actually surprisingly faithful to that era of the source, and may be the most faithful out of all of this stuff.
05-03-10 | 03:06 PM
#506
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From: Gateway Cities/Harbor Region
re: The Dark Knight Rises (Nolan)
I get that the MCU cops were hand-picked by Gordon and the bulletin board always gets a laugh or a smile from me (as it's intended to do). However, it's a hard pill to swallow that the mob can get two corrupt cops into Gordon's good graces (enough that he would refuse to heed Dent's warnings regarding the two that end up betraying them) but IAB is incapable of doing the same?
But I think the point being made about Gotham going back to "Begins" is that it is so over the top corrupt and out of control that you can hardly trust anyone on the police force. It doesn't shock me that even Gordon's hand picked crew would have a few traitors.
I would hate to be a tax payer in Gotham with some asshole vigilante running around causing as much property destruction as the criminals he seeks to bring in. Except for the property destruction, Batman hanging with the cops was veering into Adam West territory.
05-03-10 | 03:50 PM
#507
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re: The Dark Knight Rises (Nolan)
But I think the point being made about Gotham going back to "Begins" is that it is so over the top corrupt and out of control that you can hardly trust anyone on the police force. It doesn't shock me that even Gordon's hand picked crew would have a few traitors.
I've seen this issue dealt with in the JSA and JLA books. Hell, Gotham should be thankful they don't live in Metropolis with their Super-powered crime fighter throwing' cars and such.
I've seen this issue dealt with in the JSA and JLA books. Hell, Gotham should be thankful they don't live in Metropolis with their Super-powered crime fighter throwing' cars and such.
The thing about Superman and Batman's villains is that Superman's are literal forces that will physically destroy things. Batman's are more psychologically threatening. And yes, they do cause chaos and mayhem. I think Gotham may have it worse cuz these villains make it very personal for their activities in Gotham.
05-04-10 | 01:34 AM
#508
DVD Talk Hero
re: The Dark Knight Rises (Nolan)
I have no issues with corrupt cops in Gordon's unit. I have issues with no IAB cops in Gordon's unit and Batman walking around the cops so willy-nilly. Gordon should have been his only contact and not have it be practically public knowledge (albeit unofficially).
06-06-10 | 12:36 PM
#509
DVD Talk Limited Edition
re: The Dark Knight Rises (Nolan)
comingsoon.net has a few details pulled from a Nolan interview with Empire;
Has Nolan officially signed on to direct yet?
Will The Joker make a return?
Any possibility of a Superman/Batman crossover?
Has Nolan officially signed on to direct yet?
"No I haven't. There is a point where you're just being precious about it and people get annoyed, but the God's honest truth is I work on one movie at a time. I'm only capable of doing that, so my head will continue to be firmly in ['Inception'] for another few months."
"My brother is working on the screenplay. We came up with a story that we are very excited about. We particularly like where we are taking the characters and what the ending is... There are things for me to be very excited about in addressing the characters again. But ultimately it always comes down to the script, and can we make a great film from this? That's something I will firmly be turning my attention to figuring out fairly soon." It will be, he said, "the finishing of a story rather than infinitely blowing up the balloon and expanding the story."
"My brother is working on the screenplay. We came up with a story that we are very excited about. We particularly like where we are taking the characters and what the ending is... There are things for me to be very excited about in addressing the characters again. But ultimately it always comes down to the script, and can we make a great film from this? That's something I will firmly be turning my attention to figuring out fairly soon." It will be, he said, "the finishing of a story rather than infinitely blowing up the balloon and expanding the story."
"No," said Nolan resisting to elaborate, "I just don't feel comfortable about it."
"Marvel are doing what they do and people will respond to that really well, or they won't," said Nolan. "It's not something I ever really applied a blanket rule to, but Marvel characters are very different to DC characters, and the key DC characters are very different to the minor DC characters. You've got to go back to that element of, 'What do I see when I close my eyes and think of Batman? What do I see when I close my eyes and think of Superman?' And for me a big part of that is their individuality. They are extraordinary beings in an ordinary world. And the reason I think the two are fascinating is because Superman is very specifically superpowered and obviously otherworldly; Batman is very human and flawed. They're two very different characters, but there's an elemental feeling of power in the iconography of those characters. To me that's originally because they stood alone. I need to hang on to that in my imagining of them."
06-06-10 | 12:44 PM
#510
DVD Talk Hero
re: The Dark Knight Rises (Nolan)
So he's not signed on as director (yet), the Joker won't return, and no Superman/Batman crossover.
Oh well.
Oh well.
06-06-10 | 02:35 PM
#511
DVD Talk Legend
re: The Dark Knight Rises (Nolan)
I'm an unwavering DC fanboy, but I can't think of anything less interesting to me than any kind of movie crossover... Superman, Batman, or whoever else. I'm in total agreement with Nolan. Leave that stuff to Marvel; the Marvel U was built as a "shared universe" from the ground up anyhow. DC's heroes are more iconic/legendary types... a cinematic Superman/Batman crossover is like having a King Arthur/Zorro crossover.
YES, I know what I just did there.
YES, I know what I just did there.
06-06-10 | 03:02 PM
#513
DVD Talk Legend
re: The Dark Knight Rises (Nolan)
I wouldn't mind some sort of VERY small cameo from the joker, like some short, barelit lit silouette of the Joker snarking at Batman from behind bars, perhaps playing some sort of Hannibal Lecter role, but that would be about it.
06-06-10 | 04:07 PM
#514
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From: "Are any of us really anywhere?"
re: The Dark Knight Rises (Nolan)
at the very end, i would love to see the trilogy complete with Bale's Batman dying emotionally, heroically and another, younger Batman seen taking the reigns for the eventual reboot with another Director a couple years from this.
06-06-10 | 04:12 PM
#515
DVD Talk Legend
re: The Dark Knight Rises (Nolan)
I hope to God this never happens. That's all we need, a Brett Ratner or Antoine Fuqua type taking it upon themselves to shit upon Nolan's vision. I'd rather they just reboot again. Don't have to redo the origin, just do their own thing.
06-06-10 | 04:21 PM
#516
DVD Talk Legend
re: The Dark Knight Rises (Nolan)
Rather than starting a new trilogy from the beginning again, I'd almost rather they do them on an already established Batman storyline (he's in his late 30's, 40ish, meets Robin, etc)... it doesn't have to exactly be like Nolan's world but close enough that you could imagine them as a continuation if you wanted. Than maybe in 15+ yrs Nolan and Bale come back and do an aged Batman story. Maybe it's a terrible idea, but that's what I'd like to see.
The no joker thing was the obvious decision, no surprises there. Give us a few more cool villains before it's over.
The no joker thing was the obvious decision, no surprises there. Give us a few more cool villains before it's over.
06-06-10 | 04:55 PM
#517
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From: "Are any of us really anywhere?"
re: The Dark Knight Rises (Nolan)
no, i didn't mean with hacks like that, but a similarly dark vision with a fresh storyline and characters. as much as i love Bale and his Batman, i think after another it could get stale with him in lead.
06-06-10 | 05:01 PM
#518
DVD Talk Legend
re: The Dark Knight Rises (Nolan)
I'd totally be down with Batman: The Next Generation type thing. I mean, we've had a zillion permutations of the Bruce Wayne/Batman mythos... mix it up a bit... keep it dark, keep it sinister, with a new, younger Batman tortured by his own dark history... introduce a bunch of menacing new villains...
06-06-10 | 05:50 PM
#520
re: The Dark Knight Rises (Nolan)
So the 2 main villains Nolan hasn't dismissed yet are Catwoman and the Riddler? Since there's no Joker in part 3, I doubt we'd see any mention of Harley Quinn. And is Black Cat an actual villain?
I'd be fine with Catwoman and Riddler. I'm sure Nolan's version of him would be pretty sinister.
I'd be fine with Catwoman and Riddler. I'm sure Nolan's version of him would be pretty sinister.
06-06-10 | 06:35 PM
#523
DVD Talk Legend
re: The Dark Knight Rises (Nolan)
Sigh...do we really need two villains? I can see this working with one super villain (Riddler) and another shady underworld type figure.
06-06-10 | 07:28 PM
#525
DVD Talk Godfather
re: The Dark Knight Rises (Nolan)
I dunno, both the first two had 2 villains I guess. Ra's and Scarecrow, then Joker/Two-Face. Nolan's done pretty well have a primary villain and a supporting one.