i'm a republican and i dont like bush and cheny but i hate moore

This is exactly my concern. As someone who leads a healthy lifestyle and has never used my health insurance in 10 years, I'm already paying for the smokers, drinkers, overweight people who don't exercise, and the rest of these people who seem to be sick at least once a week that I work with. With socialized medicine, I'm going to pay at least twice as much so that everyone else in the United States can have their bad habits subsidized, too? How is this going to help the people that actually work in this country and whose employment compensation already includes these benefits?

So tell me again, why should I be in favor of universal healthcare?

Because otherwise you're a selfish monster!!11!!

I agree. I already pay enough for my own health care.

Do you people who hate the thought of universal health care realize that the US government is already spending more per capita than any other nation and yet our health care is rated worse than many of the nations we spend more than? Of course one of the reasons our government is continually spending more than any other nation is that the Republicans have blocked all attempts to allow Medicare to negotiate for cheaper drug prices. Our health care is rated WORSE than other countries that provide health care for every single one of their citizens, yet we spend the MOST.
This is from a 2005 study from the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health, "As in previous years, it comes back to the fact that we are paying much higher prices for health care goods and services in the United States. Paying more is okay if our outcomes were better than other countries. But we are paying more for comparable outcomes,” said Anderson, who is also the director of the Johns Hopkins Center for Hospital Finance and Management."

"The United States continues to spend significantly more on health care than any country in the world. In 2002, Americans spent 53 percent per capita more than the next highest country, Switzerland, and 140 percent above the median industrialized country"
And there are people who say there is not a problem. Unbelievable.
http://www.jhsph.edu/publichealthnew...hspending.html

So the solution is to nationalize it so that working people like me can pay even more?

Show me how it won't cost me extra. Show me that the quality won't be worse. Show me that the government will actually be able to manage this better than public schools, wars, taxes, law enforcement and all the rest. Then I'll sign up.

Well, I don't quite haste them, but I... but I do think Moore's a dick also, and while I don't exactly agree with him even most of the time, I just happen to lean toward his side more than the other - he may twist the truth (or even outright lie), but in his own twisted way, and this is over-simplifying it, but I think he's just looking out for the little guy who has no power or say in our society. You just have to see his stuff through a lens that screens out his bull shit, which most people should be able to do.

The FACT that it has been done in almost every other advanced industrialized nation for LESS money should be all the showing you need.

LESS money for who?

and yet all these other countries pay much higher tax rates than we do in the US. can't wait for that 20% sales tax like all the other industrialized countries

If I screened out his bullshit there wouldn't be anything left.

I showed you the FACTS. The US already pays far more per capita than any other nation on health care. More than Sweden, more than Germany, more than Norway, etc. Why do you think these countries are capable of providing health care for every single one of their citizens and the US can't? And don't say it's because they pay more taxes because for the last time, the US government ALREADY spends far more per capita on health care than these countries- just look at the Johns Hopkins study I linked to.

Since you have the FACTS, you ought to be able to answer these questions:

How much will socialized medicine cost me each month?
What will that get me in terms of coverage?
Will employers be required to refund the amount they used to pay toward my health insurance to me as actual salary once the government takes over?

Because I provided you with some FACTS I should be able to answer all your questions? Not sure how you came to that conclusion but okay, I will. But first, I think the most important FACT overlooked by those opposed to health care for every single one of their fellow Americans is that other nations are already doing it- and for a much cheaper price than what the US government is spending. Also, although we spend the most per capita by far we do not have the best health care (at least according to a study I recently saw). Regardless, despite the FACT you can't seem to wrap your head around this FACT I will go ahead and answer your questions because apparently you think I know all (thanks for your faith in me, I'm flattered):
How much will socialized medicine cost me each month?
About a $1.50 for 11 months out of the year. But $2 in December.
What will that get me in terms of coverage?
It'll get you dental, one hair cut, and a free weekend at Disney every other year.
Will employers be required to refund the amount they used to pay toward my health insurance to me as actual salary once the government takes over?
Only if you ask politely.

You support a radical change in the status quo, but you have no idea how that will impact regular working people financially? My questions were serious and I would hope that someone trying to sell me on this concept would be able to answer them in a straight forward manner. Do you even know what you are supporting?

Is there anyone who supports this that can explain the cost with real numbers instead of the "other countries do it cheap and that means we can, too - really, trust me" explanation?

The use of Canada, the UK, France, and Germany as examples of government run health care working are bogus.

The populations of those countries are much, much smaller than the U.S. - the smaller the group, the easier it is to administer (the larger the group, the more difficult it is).

Also, it's been proven time and time again that OUR government hasn't been efficient since World War II.

And the most compelling argument AGAINST government run universal health care (beyond the cost to working families) is the examples of government run health care that we already have. Walter Reed, King/Harbor - HORRIBLE quality health care where people die due to incompetence and indifference.

Do you really want that kind of Health "Care" for everyone? I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy.

But most important to working families is the FACT that without the employers paying their share EVERYONE who has employer subsidized health care will take a real income hit of thousands of dollars per year. The employers are not going to just give that money (the share that the employers pay) to the employees - they're going to keep it to help pad their bottom lines. The workers are going to pay for it in increased taxes - effectively a HUGE pay cut. I don't know anyone who can afford a $5,000 per year pay cut. Not even a $1,200 per year pay cut (assuming the liberals get their way and find new taxes for the rich - the rich won't pay for it all, they'll find new ways out - they always have).

Nothing is free. In a country this size Government run Universal Health Care would be a monster - expensive, inefficient, uncaring, and incompetent. EVERY example of modern U.S. government agencies shows that they are poorly run and don't give a shit about the people using their services.

Again, I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy.

True, but it'd be a lot more manageable if done at the state level.

You're in California - does this State Government do anything efficiently, either? We're talking about one of the poorest run organizations you or I have ever seen! This state almost went bankrupt and is still in deficit figures and not one state run agency here works worth a damn either.

Government is by nature wasteful and inefficient. Having government run health care is a recipe for disaster - and as I keep noting, and everyone on the Michael Moore side keeps ignoring, the real world examples of government health care (Walter Reed, King/Harbor) are nothing short of disasters with dozens of people dying when they didn't have to (due to incompetence and indifference). Walter Reed is federal, King/Harbor is local -both are nightmares. (In fact, as I noted on a previous post, L.A. County has tried so many times in so many ways to fix King/Harbor and still can't do it - so now they are looking to PRIVATIZE the hospital!)

Just got finished watching this. Don't really feel like jumping into the debate you guys are having.. From a movie standpoint, it was similar to his others. Without even seeing it you kind of know where he is going.

B5Erik, I'm not the most optimistic guy around, and I may be reading your posts wrong, but my god, your level of pessimism is in a whole other stratosphere. With a defeatist attitude like yours, I wonder how it is you can accomplish even the smallest goal without letting your crushing fear of failure overwhelm you.

I'm not a pessimist - I'm a REALIST.

With something this important you can't gamble that for the first time in our lifetimes the government gets something right.

I mean, look at the people WRITING the laws - they're pathetic! If they write this law as poorly as their track record promises that they will, and if the Executive Branch runs the system as poorly as they've run everything else it's a complete and utter disaster at best.

Give me a reason to think that these buffoons can do something this big with even the smallest amount of competence!

anyone catch the amount of money this pig made? it's like an average of 1 person per showing

(from Deadline Hollywood)That's not quite one person per showing...

Yeah, what are you talking about Al? This weekend it made an average of over $10,000 per theater it was playing in.

i saw the tuesday up to thursday numbers before that and it was like $115,000 total since opening

how does it compare to Farenheit 9/11?

It is interesting to note that China is currently revamping it's healthcare system. They tore down the communist systems and tried to go with free market which obviously is not working. In a country with 1 billion people, they need to be very careful which model they follow. No surprise they are steering way clear of the US model. They will use Britain's NHS. The US model just doesn't make sense.