That's if you're willing pay through your nose in taxes to support the system and have your health care rationed. No thanks.

Why do you think so many Canadians and UK citizens are coming to the USA to get surgery? Because they can't afford the wait that can last many months just to get it.

By the way, while many people like the film subject, many also feel Moore's ham-fisted style ends up turning off more viewers than it should be. In fact, the very fact you have rationing of health care in countries that have nationalized health care is something that Moore totally missed in Sicko.

Oh, no? You really haven't been paying attention, have you?

We already have socialized medicine run by the government - and the level of health care for that system is FAR below that in the private sector. That system is the military health care system, and if you haven't been paying attention perhaps you should go back and research the stories on Walter Reed Hospital for starters.

Talk about a system of incompetence and a complete and utter lack of caring for the patients! And if you're concerned about mortality rates, infant or otherwise, perhaps you should consider that the government running the entire health care system would make those rates worse.

Blindly trusting the government to do something efficiently with caring for the individuals receiving services would be expecting a first. There is absolutely no evidence over the last 40 years that indicates that the government is even capaple of doing a mediocre job. None.

So, yeah, it could get A LOT worse.

So even though health-care in this country is a giant mess (and getting worse), you'd rather no steps be taken to make things better, just because you think they'd get worse (which they already are)? That'd be like being in a war that's getting worse and worse and not doing anything different to try and improve things. Oh, wait...

I never said anything about blindly trusting the government - but if putting words in my mouth helps you with your non-point, have at it.

Here's the solution - tweak our system. Fine tune it. If someone truly does not have the means to get health care coverage get them a health savings account. ONLY to be used for health care. Let them CHOOSE their providers when they truly need services.

Pass Tort Reform and put caps on awards (for pain & suffering, compensatory damages need to be paid properly). Limit what the damned trial attorneys (ambulence chasers) can do. There is way too much fraud in the system - make the punishments harsher to discourage that fraud.

Hold HMO's & PPO's accountable when they do deny services that they should make available. Hit them with fines. (And, remember, since they can be sued now for malpractice they ARE pretty careful - I know firsthand as I received surgery within a month of a diagnosis of a problem. It turned out to be a relatively minor problem, but it could have been cancer and they didn't want to screw around.)

Our system isn't as bad as you think it is. I wouldn't change my coverage for a million bucks (too easy to blow a million bucks these days).

How can I resist?

Actually, THIS is the reason why young U.S. citizens end up with massive medical bills:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5WTDkP9S7Y

Make sure you pause it on the last frame.

False, plenty of countries with a "socialized" health care system have a two-tier system: basic coverage for everyone, and additional coverage thru HMO's. There are plenty of private clinics and even private hospitals in Canada. If I'm not satisfied with the government system, I can just pay $800/year and become a member of "La Clinique du Sanctuaire" in Montreal...

False. Most Canadian provinces are now tax competitive with the US. And, once again, the notion that health care is "rationned" in Canada is utter nonsense.

Define "so many"? More hyperbole... There are some fields, like oncology, where there is a shortage of specialists. So yes, a very small minority of Canadians do go to the US for treatment. But as I stated, there's no perfect system... And surely you are aware that busloads of US senior citizens cross the border into Canada every day to get cheaper drugs? And that an increasing number of Americans go overseas (like in India) for treatment they just can't afford in the US? See how easy it is to pick and choose examples that fit your agenda? Not only do you keep perpetuating these myths, fallacies, distorsions and gross exaggerations about the Canadian health care system but, ironically, you do it using exactly the same methods that you accuse Michael Moore of using...

And nobody said that you have to copy exactly any other country's health care system. However, any rational individual (i.e. not blinded by hatred of everything "socialized") would at least look at what works in other nations with better health care systems, and at least try and figure out if and how it could apply to the US.

See, this is why I don't think you really understand the U.S. system. It's based entirely on choice. HMO, PPO, etc - there are a lot of insurance companies out there and each one has multiple plans with different premiums. But you have to make it a priority to actually look at them and sign up.

I've been paying for my own health insurance since I was 19. I made it a priority because I had gotten hurt (not badly, but it would have been expensive had I been uninsured), and I had minor health issues - and I want to be able to go see my doctor if I think there's a problem. So I paid $78 per month back in 1987 because it was important to me. Sure, many of my friends DIDN'T do that, and some of them ended up with big medical bills later on - but that was their CHOICE.

Ummm, oncology - life or death stuff. So there is a shortage of oncologist specialists in Canada? Why do you think that is? Is it because they are paid better in the U.S. maybe? A shortage of oncologists is a truly frightening thing - Cancer is bad enough, but a shortage of expert doctors to treat it? Forget that!

But, and this is what you don't get, we've got a working system here. A majority of Americans are satisfied with their coverage.

And Hillary/Michael Moore have proposed DUMPING our system altogether in favor of a system based primarily on the Canadian system.

We certainly don't have to copy another system exactly, but that's exactly what people like Michael Moore and Hillary Clinton have supported. Copy the system, warts and all!

I am stunned that you don't see anything wrong with that - a mostly healthy 19 year-old paying almost $80 ('87 dollars, no less) a month for coverage is outrageous.


That's just flat-out false - just because you're satisfied, doesn't mean a majority of Americans are.

No, that's not necessarily the case, and even if it was, it's better than what we have now.
And have you even seen the movie? Because MM actually calls out Hillary on her about-face bullshit.

Yeah, more myths and falsehoods... Latest polls show that a majority of Americans (54%) are now dissatisfied with the overall quality of health care in the United States (compared with 15% in Canada). Moreover, 62% of Americans would prefer some form of universal health insurance program over the current employer-based system. The biggest issue being cost. Now people who are insured might be generally satisfied with their coverage, but that doesn't say much about the quality of the US health care system. "I love my coverage so screw those who are dissatisfied!" is a pretty silly argument, especially considering the high level of dissatisfaction. And moreover, among those insured, nearly 1 in 4 have said someone in their family put off medical treatment in the last year because of cost. (Among uninsured people, this soars to 49 percent.)


I'm done arguing with B5Erik because it's useless.

I completely agree with the slop.

As someone who spends around $60 a month on health insurance now, spread across three plans mind you (I have my own through work, in addition to being on my parents' seperate plans as I am a full time student), I still think the system could be better -- and I'm pretty much fully covered if anything (God forbid) goes wrong. I never have to pay a dime when I walk into my family doctor (which is private) or when I go to the ER or a Quick Care. My drugs can range anywhere from free to $30, depending on which card of choice will get me the medicine for cheaper. While I still think things could be cheaper (mediciation), I believe that in the position that I am in, everyone else should be able to get those same benefits just as well as anyone else. It should be the government's responsibility to look out for it's citizens (just as it is in Canada, France, UK, Cuba, etc) instead of making it's citizens pay through the roof just to find decent health care if anything goes wrong.

As the film points out, a doctor working within the government system can still make great money ($200,000 in US dollars) to support his family (and their expensive lifestyle) while helping out the patients they're supposed to care about. The doctors Moore interviews in the film seem to genuinely give a shit about their patients which is more than I can say for 85% of the doctors I've met in my life (and this is coming from someone who made their way in and out of hospitals during my senior year of high school). The health care system in our country is ran by greed and everybody can see that. The system is more about trying to make the most money and less about actually caring about those people needing attention. Fuel in the ambulence chasing lawyers and the malpractice lawsuits that spring up every twelve minutes by doctors that don't care, the proof is right there that the system is royally screwed and we need to fix it now before we ruin the few things the system actually does have going for it.

Well, I can't say I'm for capping people off at earning $200,000 a yr....but, considering I'll never get to half that....socialism doesn't sound so bad sometimes.



The thing is, this essentially gives more trust and control to our government right? And we've seen how trustworthy and honest they always are right? Hmmm... And if we let them take the reigns for our healthcare - what else do we give them control of?

Well I'm thinking we just start a revolution, take control of the government, and work from there.

God, this is just pathetic.

What an entitlement mentality I'm seeing here. Give me health care because I deserve it.

Bullshit. No one owes you a damned thing. You want it, pay for it. I have since I was 19 because I recognized that if I got really sick or was in an accident I'd be screwed if I didn't have health care. I looked at the risks and I didn't like them. So I paid my money for health care - and I used that health care any and every time I needed.

Have you heard of PRIORITIES? Food, shelter, health care - you pay for that first then everything else after that.

If you're too poor to pay for health care (truly too poor, not just screwed up priority wise) then there is health care available to you subsidized by the government.

There is NO right to health care in the constitution. If it's important to you, you pay for it. Check out Kaiser - they have reasonable rates and good health care (don't buy into the bad rep some people try to give them - my entire extended family has gotten good health care through them for over 30 years). Maybe you won't be able to afford 10 DVD's a month any more, maybe you'll have to cut back - maybe you won't be able to afford going out every Friday & Saturday night, but that's where priorities come in.

What is truly important? Having a good time on the weekends, or having health insurance to protect you from financial ruin?

For those of you who have seen the film, I'm at the mention of Kaiser.

People like you make me sick. You're all for saving your own ass, but don't give a shit about anybody else in the process. You're in this for nobody but yourself and not only is that completely non-American, but disgusting to boot. I'm coming into this debate with the fact I have a good paying job, in addition to going to school full time, along with the fact that my family is pretty financially secure (and then some). I honestly don't have to worry about health care at all. I am beyond covered and then some. I shouldn't honestly come into this debate as I shouldn't give two shits. Hell, I should be against Michael Moore since my mother works for a major health insurance company. However, everyone in this country in some shape way or form should be able to get decent health care at little or no cost. No HMO/PPO bullshit, just honest-to-God decent healthcare. I'm all for paying a little bit more on my taxes if that means everyone gets healthcare that's actually worth something. The government already offers "near free" (they're not free due to taxes) services such as libraries, the post office, police, firemen; why can't we have services provided to the people of this country for medical attention?

And the health care that is available to the poor and that is subsidized by the government? Fucking terrible. Most people don't even qualify for it and those that do, don't even benefit from it at all. And the priority line you're sprouting out? Fucking bullshit and a half. Coming from someone who is in college, I have numerous friends who have full-time jobs, but are in the process of paying off school as well as paying for a roof over their heads and food to eat. Some of them have health care that's provided by their individual schools, but I have some friends who no health care at all. Do they not deserve it because they're priorities are not in order as they're trying to get an education to get a decent paying job in the long run? Cut me a fucking break.

That's because the media tells them that a universal health care system would be OH, SO MUCH BETTER! The average American has no clue as to the downside of such a system. The problem with such a system is that once implemented there is no going back. The genie's out of the bottle, and if it becomes a disaster then the only solution is to throw more money at it. Nice.

OK, now you're worried about one group imposing on another? So what about the reverse? I don't want to pay so much for health insurance so screw those who ARE satisfied with their coverage - take it away and impose "Universal Health Care," regardless of whether they want it or not!


Then maybe they need to look at getting a new provider. There are a lot of health care providers out there, and looking around to see if there's a better option for you is free (all it costs is your time and effort).

I have NEVER had to put off health care treatment because of cost - and I'm "lower middle class," not exactly rolling in dough! (No one in my family has, either.)

That's right - it's useless because you're saying that the system doesn't work when it does.

The system isn't perfect - it IS flawed, but I listed 3 or 4 steps that could easily be taken to fix the situation without a radical change that could cost TRILLIONS of dollars!

No, TOTALLY American. I'm all for individualism - people who can learn to stand on their own, without the "help," of government. I remember 15 years ago my wife and I wanted to have kids, but we couldn't afford it. People kept saying - oh, just go on WIC and other programs and they'll get you through. THAT is utter bullshit. We waited until we were in our 30's and paid for everything ourselves. We were absolutely broke after paying the bills, but we got by without government aid.

I'm glad I could give you a laugh - because YOU provided me with some amusement there.

First off, you have NO clue as to the cost of "Universal Health Care." Add it all up and it is LITERALLY in the TRILLIONS of dollars. That's the entire US Federal Budget! So, what - were going to DOUBLE the size of government and it won't cost us DOUBLE in taxes? How's that going to work?

See, there's the nice idea - health care for all! Who could be against that, right? Then there's the practical reality of administering it and paying for it. It can't be done by the government.

If the government could do health care even decently then why is there such a scandal about Walter Reed and Military health care? It's pathetic - and yet you want that same government giving us ALL that level of "care?" Give me a break.

I'm not just worried about me, by the way, I'm worried about my family. I don't want my child to lose the health care that has been invaluable to us (she's had surgery and emergency care more than once).

And, by the way, unless you've got health care through Kaiser, I wouldn't knock it. I have never EVER had any serious issues with them. In fact, I wouldn't change my personal physician through them for anything. She's great!

Oh, but I must be stupid, Kaiser's supposed to be bad - Michael Moore said so!

There's a old saying,"there's two sides to every coin". Be it the Health Care here or in Cuba, the war, global warming or cooling, politics there's always a pro/con, right/left, good/bad, etc...

A true documentary would've covered both sides and let the viewer draw their own conclusion. But that cannot happen because (1) there's a political agenda here and (2) we're not as smart as those people to think for ourselves. While "Sicko" may raise worthwhile questions maybe a new title like "Sick of America" may be better suited.

It amazes me to no end that the very people who live here, work here, prosper here, enjoy the freedoms here and make a better life here continue to degrate, bash, moan, complain, cry, trash about how rotten, terrible this country is. They haven't a clue just how well we really have it compared to the rest of the world. There are countless places in this world we wouldn't last a week but oh how rotten we have it here.

Well if one doesn't like say their job they usally go and find another right. Well don't like the Health care then move to Cuba or Canada. Don't like the price of gas then move to the Middle East. There's no contract that says you "have to" stay. This is the land of free choice right?

Face it, this movie is nothing more than a political advertisement which happens to be about what else but a Democratic Health Plan. Shock and dissmay! But like F-9/11 and Inconvenient Truth it has more holes than swiss cheese but it'll be protected and promoted by the media because it's part of the template and we're to stupid to ask questions.

For those who just constantly bash this country and think how rotten we are I've got one question; if it's so bad here and we're hated so much why do countless thousands still want to come here?


Kenny J

Hmmm - maybe you need to go to Canada to get proper treatment for that.

Now, correct me if I'm wrong - but isn't it the Evil Conservative Republicans who are supposed to call their opponents "UnAmerican?"

I'm afraid you're on the wrong side of this debate to be using that kind of tactic. (But, I guess if you're supporting Michael Moore then anything goes...)

And since when is it UN-American to not want to take handouts from the government? I have NEVER taken handouts from the government - that would be unfair to the other taxpayers who would be subsidizing me.

I just thought of a family I know, both the husband and wife had white collar jobs, made very good money. Had the big house, nice cars, etc. While they made a lot of money and had nice things they were still relatively frugal. Wife had two kids and decided to stay home and take care of them. Then husband got sick. They lost everything, and I mean everything. Wife can't get a job because she has to stay home and take care of the husband. Not too long ago the wife tearfully asked my parents for money so she could get some groceries. She had been reduced to the status of a begger. It can happen. If they didn't have kids they probably would have killed themselves.

That is complete BS.

Is it?

Were these people dissatisfied before the media told them that they were dissatisfied, or were they persuaded that if this system sucks so bad that they must be dissastified? After all, in this day and age only an idiot is satisfied with his/her heath care provider, right?

That's not so much a health care issue as it is a disability insurance issue. That's the type of situation where accepting help from the government is not only acceptable but where help from the government should be expected - an emergency situation, more or less.

It really is amazing to see how people are such damn sheep, yet without someone telling them what to think or say they have no idea what the hell is really going on.

Bottom line as some pointed out, who said those other places are perfect systems, are they better probably, could we start there and make them even better, probably. Instead lets just all argue over arbitrary facts(wrong or right ones). No lets not change anything lets let big corps take over everything, let them buy more laws that covern us. Nope...nothing to see here.

There's nothing wrong so lets just argue about silly shit instead. After all that keeps us from knowing what's ever really going on.

Freedom of information.....has become Freedom of Misinformation. From BOTH sides.

I offered up reasonable and moderate solutions to the problems in the system - ways to fix the system before resorting to RADICAL changes that can't really be undone. No one on the other side of this debate seems interested in less radical ideas. Michael Moore certainly doesn't.

Fuck, it'd probably cost me less in taxes than it would in premiums, co-pays, co-insurance, deductibles, and non-covered benefit expenses.


B5Erik, speaking of entitlement...you don't think insurance & pharmaceutical companies behave with a sense of entitlement?