There was a kid sitting behind me the second time I saw it, probably 10 or 11, who was often whispering to his mother, like kids do, concern for Superman, questions about the movie, you know, kid stuff. He loved it. A friend of mine's kid yelled out "just drop it, don't die," when he was pushing the big land mass into space. In my experience, the kids in the theater love it. If the hype is keeping people away, hopefully they'll come back for the DVD. And the sequel. It's not like Hulk, where there was a lot of hype and advertising for a superhero movie and then you went and saw some weird psychological thriller with a little Hulk in the middle and a bubble fight at the end. This was, to me, like the Superman movies I grew up with, and the kids I've heard from are having the same reactions to this that I had to the first two when I was little.

I think POTC will be remembered for a very long time, and Superman Returns will be relatively obscure. I think the critical response was just off on POTC. Most critics saw the first movie once in the theater, didn't think much of it, and haven't seen it again because they have lots and lots of other stuff to watch. They were probably perplexed or put off by its in-jokes and self-referential nature, and didn't see the purpose of revisiting the subject matter.

What they missed was the immense popularity of this movie and these characters. I usually agree with the general critical consensus, but they missed the boat on this one. I have probably watched the movie four or five times on DVD, and I got and enjoyed all the jokes and references that probably sailed by a lot of critics. I think the huge rush of people into the box office had very little to do with Disney or its marketing or its family-friendliness (both films were PG-13), and a lot more to do with a built-in audience that was very eager to see the film. I think a lot of reviewers miscalculated how well-liked this movie was, and how much affection audiences had for the characters.

Both will be remembered, but Superman Returns will get far more mention - simply because it's part of the overall Superman legacy. Heck, those Kirk Alyn Superman flicks still get mentioned today.

You're ignoring that their will be a POTC legacy, given the success of the first two films, a third coming that will be just as popular, and talks of doing more down the road.

You have to talk about budget, because revenues - costs = profits. If you gross $50m on a movie that cost $100m, you're a spectacular failure, and if you gross $50m on a movie that cost $2m, you're a huge success.

Anyway, both Batman and Superman are franchises that were effectively killed by bad sequels. But "Superman Returns" was spared the contamination
by virtue of an extra decade of distance from "Superman IV." "Batman Begins" had to salvage that franchise from the damage Joel Schumacher did to it.

Exactly, and when we're talking about box office dissapointments, I assume we are talking about whether or not it is dissapointing for the studio, not for fans.

Fans shouldn't care one way or the other. I guess maybe they might care in terms of getting a sequel or what not, but aside from that I couldn't care less how much money a film makes. I just care whether it entertained me or not.

The film has definately not performed as well as people predicted and as well as it should have. I mean who doesn't know of Superman, thr marketing of the movie should have been a no brainer....but they seem to have dropped the ball. Watching all the trailers and seeing all the advertisements i never really felt like it was a movie that i really wanted to see...even though i am a huge Superman fan. I thought the movie was good....not great and not terrible. I expected more though. It seemed to have some major inconsistancies (when he lifts the new continent the Kryptonite doesn't affect him at all.....why?), and the plot was rather thin with not much depth at all. I thought the casting and effects were good, but i wanted to see more action. I wanted to see Superman doing more rather than just coming to grips with his emotional conflicts. This is a film where the sequel can make major improvements, and i am sure that they will do one. The film will make money on DVD and we will see him again. One thing that i really felt after seeing this movie was even more appreciation for the original Donner Superman. It really showed how well they had made that movie. This movie is pale in comparison. With the exceptions of Batman Begins, Sin City and X2, Superman is easily one of the best comic book movies ever created. Superman Returns falls somewhere in the middle. I have hopes that a sequel with Brainiac and a lot of action could be great. I think they should try and push Superman over the edge in it a little...give him a bit of a Batman film. Have Brainiac team up with Luthor and kill Supermans kid, then have it a bit of a revenge movie.

I have no idea what those Kirk Alyn films are :) Superman Returns might get more mention, but it seems like it will only be in passing. Already, it seems like Jack Sparrow has turned into one of the most memorable characters within the last decade. Not to mention the actual ride that had already been immensely popular.

Maybe the kids who passed on SUPERMAN RETURNS simply because of the word-of-mouth (and remember, they are just kids whether they are eight to eighteen) are missing out on a lot of fun. However, if the Warner PR machine fails to get them into the seats, or if the DVD confirms their suspicions, then they will assume that the negative buzz was correct.

Negative "buzz"? I've heard very few unfavorable comments about SR. Warner Bros. PR department has nothing to be ashamed of when the result is a film grossing $200,000,000! Believe me, by the time this is over, when the film hits the dollar theaters it will hit $200,000,000. I think it's time to check our sense of proportion. Huge numbers of people have watched this movie and many more are waiting for the bargain showings.

As for the "gay" thing surrounding Superman Returns and possibly hurting the BO, I can only say it's truly strange that the hero wearing all the eye shadow/liner is being touted as the box office winner. Nelly Captain Jack seems to have helped the gay cause more than any SR gay rumor!

If people are talking about POTC 75 years from now, I'll offer up an apology. People WILL be talking about Superman 75 years from now, and Superman Returns will be part of that legacy.

And if anyone here suggests that the Disney ride/series of movies/whatever else they come up with is going to become more popular than Superman in the long run, I want to buy some of what you're smoking. ;)

I'm 18 x 2, saw SR returns twice, and STILL missed out on all the fun.

Superman as a franchise will be well known and remembered. As for just looking at movies, I don't think Superman Returns will be remembered as fondly as the POTC movies. I don't think a franchise being classic means every part of it will be remembered. Most people don't recall much about Superman 3 or 4, and most younger people probably never even saw them. S

Superman Returns is a very good film, and will be remembered more than those, but just looking at the box office is enough to tell that it's not having the widespread appeal that POTC is.

Also, Superman has waned in popularity over the years. I was born in 1978, and was into comics in middle school etc. I never bought a single superman comic, nor did any of my friends. Where as my dad says he had tons of superman comics growing up.

So I don't even think it's a given that the character will still be mainstream in 75 years. Though to be fair, I don't think POTC will be remembered much in 75 years either. Both are fluff popcorn movies, Superman may stick around more due to his iconic nature, but I don't think Superman Returns itself will have much lasting appeal.

To be fair, the critics' job is to say whether or not they found a movie enjoyable. Their job is not to predict whether or not a film will be popular or liked by the masses in general. If it was, their already limited relevance would be completely obliterated.

Well, what can I tell you? People hear what they want to hear; people believe what they want to believe. The reviews for SUPERMAN RETURNS have been damn impressive. However, fanboys and internet geeks are a loud and obnoxious group, and perhaps their irresponsible statements mean more than well-rationed, legitimate commentary.

The whole "gay" element is regrettable and irrelevant, but look how big a deal is being made of it on Talkback sites like AICN and even in general discussion on other fan sites (SUPERMAN CINEMA UK, KAL-EL.ORG [R.I.P] and even SUPERHERO HYPE!).

And I agree that $200,000,000 is an impressive figure, despite the budget.

But I also wonder how many tickets sold does that figure translate to. SUPERMAN II did bang up business back in 1981 when it was released in just under 1500 theatres. SUPERMAN RETURNS gets released in over 4,000 theatres, which has been reduced presently to over 1000.

Is SUPERMAN RETURNS doing better than SUPERMAN III or SUPERMAN II in terms of number of tickets sold, or inflation-adjusted box-office? If it has sold more tickets than either of the last two sequels (SUPERMAN IV really doesn't count), then it is perhaps a bigger success that people think.

Singer responded to a question about the marketing quality of SR something to the effect of "Some people did their jobs, some people didn't." (Not exact quote) So maybe the advertising didn't serve the movie well. And maybe the DVD release will rectify that. Like box office numbers, marketing doesn't equal quality of film, so I think the already hugely popular SR will find an even bigger audience, with the DVD, with the sequel, and with future movies.

I also just want to point out that they wouldn't even be worried about money if they had gone with Tom Welling. ;)

I actually might buy into this if it was generally known that Bryan Singer was gay. We take it for granted sometime that the general public has the same level of knowlege about film and filmmaker as we do. I don't think most people could tell you that SR was directed by Bryan Singer, much less that Singer himself is gay.

if you search back through the Superman thread, you'll see that even people on this board (myself included) didn't have any idea that Singer was gay until recently.

Superman II made $108 million in 1981:
http://www.boxofficemojo.com/franchi...d=superman.htm

Adjusted for inflation, that'd be about $250 million today:
http://www.boxofficemojo.com/about/adjuster.htm

Superman III made about $60 million in 83, or about $120 million today.

The first Superman movie is ranked #59 all-time adjusted box-office, with it worth about $367 million in inflation-adjusted dollars.

So Superman Returns is doing far better than III or IV, but not as good as II, and nowhere near as well as the original film.
http://www.boxofficemojo.com/alltime/adjusted.htm

It may not have been generally known that Singer is gay (and the kid didn't know that anyone on the production crew is gay), but the general impression that there is a gay element surrounding Superman can make people think the worst of the worst. Again, we're talking about kids here (along with adults with the mentality of kids). All it takes is a single comment or rumor for the whole subject-matter to be blown out of proportion. (Recall the anti-Dukkakis ad campaigns from over twenty years ago which basically stated that he let rapists go free.) Kids would react the same if they heard that SUPERMAN RETURNS was nothing but a love story. ("Eew! Girls! Yechh!")

Believe me...if you look at the press and message boards and other postings about this movie, there is some considerable attention devoted to the sexual orientation of the director and subject matter. Singer even had to go on record stating that SUPERMAN RETURNS was the straightest film he's ever directed (or words to that effect).

When it comes to the "gayness" of SUPERMAN RETURNS, at least one kid (and I hasten to add that he's an otherwise good kid from a good family) I know has admitted his problem with it and why he doesn't want to see the movie. It's ridiculous. It's immature. And it's bigotted. But it has some effect.

Thanks Jay! That puts the film's success into a better perspective.

Superman Returns still hasn't opened in Germany or Japan. I believe it'll be opening in about 2 weeks, so its international take should get a boost with those debuts.

Yeah, thanks. Had always wondered what each film made and what their adjusted gross would be. Most sequels make less that their predecessor, so 190-200M is still good :)

Well, first, "Pirates 3" has not been released yet so we really can't say the series will be remembered fondly. As a whole. Personally, I will remember the first one, VERY fondly. One of the few movies I've seen multiple times in the theater. But "POTC 2"? I hated every second of it. I'm praying "3" will be half as good as the first. But no way will any of the "Pirates" movies be considered a better film than the first "Superman" years down the road.

POTC 2 was enjoyable, but nowhere near as good or as fun (for me) as Superman Returns. Superman Returns made me feel like I was an 8-year old seeing Jurassic Park again.

I'm going to watch "POTC2" again when it's on DVD (I won't buy it), just because I want to see if maybe I missed something. Or maybe wasn't in the right frame of mind when I saw it in the theater. But, I couldn't agree with you more, I sat watching "SR" like a kid. It was just magical to me.