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anakin's turn to the dark side

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anakin's turn to the dark side

Old 05-31-05, 10:34 PM
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anakin's turn to the dark side

does anybody think it would have been more believable if anakin turned to the dark side as a means of protecting his mother from death, instead of padme?
Old 05-31-05, 10:43 PM
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His mother died in the 2nd movie. How exactly would you work that into the plot?
Old 05-31-05, 10:57 PM
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I think that was part of his motive, that he didn't want anyone to suffer the same fate as his mother. Hm.
Old 05-31-05, 11:31 PM
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Originally Posted by RyoHazuki
His mother died in the 2nd movie. How exactly would you work that into the plot?
not have his mother die in the 2nd movie.
Old 06-01-05, 12:03 AM
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I've stated elsewhere that Anakin's turn to the dark side was unconvincing for me. The major reason is because Lucas utterly failed to make Jedi vs Sith a grey issue for the viewer, yet he wanted us to believe Anakin could see it that way. Of course the only way he could do this was with the never fail (to fail) method of "tell, don't show."

For example, during the final battle, when Obi screams "Anakin, the Chancellor is evil!" and Anakin responds "From my point of view, the Jedi are evil!" First of all, who talks like that? Of course it's from you're point of view, you're the one saying it! Second, nobody believes it.

Why would they? Anakin was raised among the jedi. He knows their ways, their leaders. The SW universe is presented as Good VS Evil, white hats and black hats. Lucas dare not upset that world. Instead he attempts to cheat by trying to convince us that Anakin could be tricked by a few dark deceptions of Senator Palpatine. So, somehow, we are to believe Anakin thinks he is good and the Jedi are evil, even as he slaughters young children and the defenseless, because he was tricked.
Old 06-01-05, 12:22 AM
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His moms death was just a step into his dark side that was needed to establish in his future turn. so, no.
Old 06-01-05, 01:29 AM
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Originally Posted by wmansir
I've stated elsewhere that Anakin's turn to the dark side was unconvincing for me. The major reason is because Lucas utterly failed to make Jedi vs Sith a grey issue for the viewer, yet he wanted us to believe Anakin could see it that way. Of course the only way he could do this was with the never fail (to fail) method of "tell, don't show."
Yep. Anakin's moment of conversion was completely unmotivated and unrealistic.
Old 06-01-05, 08:32 AM
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I'm not sure how obvious it was meant to be...and it's certainly not worth starting a thread...but I noticed last night that the little Aussie youngling called Anakin "Master Skywalker". I wonder if that was meant to be another brick in the wall since Anakin hadn't been appointed "master jedi" yet, and it was a bit of a hot button for him.

At any rate, his expression changed a bit upon reading that line.
Old 06-01-05, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by chess
but I noticed last night that the little Aussie youngling called Anakin "Master Skywalker". .
I Think it is proper for all "students" to call Jedi's "Master." Padawan's call their instructors "Master". And not all Jedi Knights are part of the council - if so then there are only 12 Jedi Knights. What should the kids call him "Sir Skywalker?"
Old 06-01-05, 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by wmansir
For example, during the final battle, when Obi screams "Anakin, the Chancellor is evil!" and Anakin responds "From my point of view, the Jedi are evil!" First of all, who talks like that? Of course it's from you're point of view, you're the one saying it! Second, nobody believes it.
Agreed. That line made me cringe. With the exception of that scene, Anakin's turn seemed pretty natural to me and I was fine with it.
Old 06-01-05, 10:19 AM
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Personally, I would have worked more of the Jedi influence in his mother's death into the films. It's sort of there on the surface, but never explicitly stated as a theme.

Ultimately, while it doesn't make complete sense (as mentioned in the "Why didn't Naboo free her" thread), I think that Anakin stays away from his mother for a decade because of the "Jedi code" -- Jedi do not have attachments to family. Episode II could have mentioned that Anakin had petitioned the Jedi Council in the past to go out and help his mom... and been refused. That would add to his frustration in Ep. II and also make his traveling to Tatooine not only a violation of his mandate to protect Padme, but also a violation of the Jedi orders.

Again, all of this is sort of there... but it isn't crystal clear.

That would have helped quite a bit -- Anakin would ultimately blame the Jedi for Shmi's death. And would have little faith that the Jedi would give him any help with Padme. And it would make the Sith all that more appealing -- since the Sith are actually claiming to be willing to help him SAVE his loved ones, instead of ignoring them based on some silly code of conduct.
Old 06-01-05, 02:26 PM
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They did take the Jedi down from their pedestal just a little bit, though. Anakin begins to see that they're not perfect, when they want him to spy and later when Windu is about to give in to his emotions. The Chancellor predicts that the Jedi will want to take over the Republic, and that is indeed what they agree to do, though Yoda has reservations.

Anakin had to hide his marriage and love from the council and jedis for a long time... then he had to try to hide the pregnancy (though how Obi wan couldn't figure this out earlier is beyond me... who else would the father be? Unless he was feigning ignorance). He finds out the woman he loves is going to die, and wants to save her... indeed, there is a way to save her, but it is denied him, and Yoda tells him to just accept it. Already, the emotions that most jedi supress to stay on the light side are overtaking him. By the time he commits the act that pushes him over the edge, he realizes (or at least believes) there's no going back, no redemption for him, and he just falls and falls and falls. Besides, who knows what the Jedi would have done had he not turned and padme had given birth to his children... take them away? Cast him out?

I, for one, thought it was totally believable (if we take for granted that Padme and Anakin love each other deeply). There are people today who do crazy things "out of love." And remember that the Chancellor was always one of Anakin's closest friends.
Old 06-01-05, 02:51 PM
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Originally Posted by wmansir
For example, during the final battle, when Obi screams "Anakin, the Chancellor is evil!" and Anakin responds "From my point of view, the Jedi are evil!" First of all, who talks like that? Of course it's from you're point of view, you're the one saying it!
At least he didn't say, "IMHO, teh Jedi R e\/i|_!"
Old 06-01-05, 02:56 PM
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I dunno...at first I thought Anakin's flip to the dark side was quick...but I guess I realized this was a long slow process and he just finally snapped. I mean...he has flirted with the dark side over the years, and the fact that he was always treated as an outcast by the Jedi. Windu was the one who initially told him he wouldn't be trained, and told him he was denied the title of master, so it makes sense for his betrayal to come against him. The other thing is that Palpatine befriended him in a way the Jedi didn't, and when he is told that the Sith hold the key to keeping people alive, he makes his choice there, he even tells Padme that he found a way to save her, he has pretty much made up his mind there that he is going to explore the dark side. When Palps tells him that he a Sith lord he doesn't know who the hell to trust, adding to his confusion. He ends up making a rash, emotional decision, and he basically has to either join Sidious and save Padme, or kill Sidious and face the punishment of the Jedi...either way he is screwed.
Old 06-01-05, 03:34 PM
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You also gotta remember the movie is over a big time period. How would Padme go from finding out she's pregnant at the beginning to having the babies at the end? I for one would have enjoyed a 3 hour or more version of the movie.
Old 06-01-05, 04:09 PM
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Actually, Padme doesn't discover she is pregnant, she's been hiding it for months. At the beginning of the film she tells anakin that she is pregnant. How could she just be pregnant if they haven't seen each other for a good 5-7 months as he was away on the tour of duty and what not.
Old 06-01-05, 04:12 PM
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Originally Posted by MJG87
You also gotta remember the movie is over a big time period. How would Padme go from finding out she's pregnant at the beginning to having the babies at the end? I for one would have enjoyed a 3 hour or more version of the movie.
You're assuming the gestation period for Nabooians is 9 months.
Old 06-01-05, 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by KnightLerxst
I dunno...at first I thought Anakin's flip to the dark side was quick...but I guess I realized this was a long slow process and he just finally snapped.

...
I agree it was a long slow process, but it is that "snap" moment that just wasn't as convincing/believable as I would have liked to see. It's a small quibble for me though.
Old 06-01-05, 11:24 PM
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Originally Posted by wmansir
I've stated elsewhere that Anakin's turn to the dark side was unconvincing for me. The major reason is because Lucas utterly failed to make Jedi vs Sith a grey issue for the viewer, yet he wanted us to believe Anakin could see it that way. Of course the only way he could do this was with the never fail (to fail) method of "tell, don't show."
There was no need for a grey area. The Sith were never supposed to seem to possibly be good. They were always meant to be evil. Anakin's turn happened because of the restraints put on him as a Jedi. He was not allowed to see his mother since he was a child, he was not allowed to love and marry Padme, etc. Anakin believed that its because he was a jedi that his mother died and thought that it would be better to go to the other side because he believed that he could save Padme from the same fate, eventhough he knew the Sith were wholly evil. Anakin talks about it himself earlier in ROTS. He says how the Sith only care for themselves.

This is how I saw it at least.

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