There is another?
 

Quick question I'm hoping isn't a huge lapse in continuity:

When Obi-Wan says in ESB that "that boy is our last hope" and Yoda says "No, there is another" shouldn't he have followed that up with "Remember? Padme had twins. You were standing right next to her!"?

Anakin could have been the last hope... Doesnt mean it was Leia.

Already being discussed in the "esb question" thread.

Hm, it's not really being discussed at all. What is Yoda aware of (about another to save the Republic) that Obi-Wan isn't, especially in his "one with the force" state?

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And it's followed up quite nicely by others on there. Apparently, Obi Wan's sexist. :)

Why can't we just accept the fact that Lucas flubbed this detail and get on with our lives?

actually, it could be explained. Maybe after delivering Luke, Yodi and Bail tell Obi-Wan that Leia died of SIDS?

Man, the other day I was all "Great! we're all out of pasta!" and I was told "No, wait, don't forget that we have some more in the other drawer!"

I might be assuming too much but I believe that old Ben immediately goes into hiding after handing Luke off to the Larses. Plus telling him that Leia died of SIDS is the stupidest thing I've heard since someone claimed that Owen was a pedophiliac.

BizRodian..........that's fricken hysterical and weird. Is that a quote from some movie?

Anakin was said to be too old to start training. Luke was even older. To start training Leia at her age would've been near pointless because by the time she was any good, there'd be 12 death Stars floating around and the emperor would have a new super cool apprentice (maybe it'd even be Luke, who'd wipe the floor with Leia).

D

I think the answer is: anything that seems like a mystery in the older films - isn't one any longer. And that's actually intentional.

Maybe Obi Wan thought that Leia being into politics would somehow compromise any Jedi training she would receive?

Well, Leia being into politics does indeed do that. If you want to count the EU stuff, Leia never becomes a Jedi. She always leaves the Force side of things to Luke.

Theoretically, it could be considered that since Ben was one with the Force, he was able to see that destiny foretold that Luke would be the One, and Leia wasn't meant/wouldn't be able to return the Jedi order. Perhaps Ben just figured he wouldn't get into a long debate with Yoda about how destiny never indicated that Luke was the "chosen twin" or whatever you want to call it.

Of course, if you exclude all the EU stuff and just consider the end of Jedi, then it could be assumed that Leia goes on to become a Jedi herself... But including EU gives just about the only explanation one can give to this blunder.

How about the real answer....Lucas didn't decide to make Leia Luke's sister until episode 6/

It's simple... Obi-Wan is a chauvanist bastard, and doesn't give any credit to females. The other twin, the 'lesser twin' Leia, doesn't even merit consideration by this rat bastard. :grunt:


;)

The "That boy is our last hope" scene is up for interpretation...the scene that REALLY doesn't make sense now is Leia being able to remember her mother, while Luke cannot. Luke even empahisizes her "REAL" mother in the conversation...so don't tell me she's remembering her adoptive mother in that scene.

I just thought maybe Yoda was reminding Obi-Wan that there was still hope for Anakin's redemption. I mean, I don't remember Obi-Wan turning to Yoda afterwards and going, "No shit? Who dat?"

K

That's true. I've seen the full unedited scene at a convention and if I remember correctly the dialogue goes

Ben : That boy is our last hope
Yoda: No, there is another
Ben: Another hope?
Yoda: Yes, Leia.
Ben (Rolling his eyes): Yeah maybe she can use the force to bake me up some muffins.

Or it could be that the one Obi Wan thought would be the other was Skippy, the Jedi droid, and Obi Wan knew Skippy blew his motivator, and naturally was still broken up about it in Empire and forgot about Leia and needed a friendly reminder.

Exactly! :lol:

"There is another" refers to the Youngling who got the changed Jedi Beacon signal and hid out to avoid "Order 66" and the new Emperor. He contacted Yoda on his confidential frequency, and Yoda has been secretly training him for an eventual battle against Sidous, if Luke fails.

....I got nothing....

Yeah, the whole Luke/Leia brother/sister thing is problematic when you look at eps. 4 & 5.

lol! NOW i know why they made the Vader/BK commerical, its all a tie in for an alternate-reality trilogy Lucas is going to make... midway through the 2nd movie Darth Luke says "no, Liea, I am your brother!"

j

Leia was never very strong with the force. Most of the medoclorians went to Luke (or so Obi Wan believed).

I like that. Yoda is the wisest man of the galaxy. Sure we assume that he is referring to Leia, but he could very well be referring to Anakin. "From a certain point of view."

Obi and Yoda could very well have taken a midichlorian count before sending the babes on their way to see who to watch over. Bail jumps on Leia, but maybe Yoda and Ben knew that Luke had the higher count and that is why Obi-wan personally watched over him and left Leia to a Senator with no one to look after her.

On another note, Leia did seem to connect to family when it comes to the force. She remembers "images and feelings" from Padme and she feels Luke is ok after Death Star II blows up.

Leia was not trained at that stage, who knows when she was going to get trained.

It might have been, had they gone with the original plan and had a love triangle involving Luke, Leia and Han. As it stands in the films, there's nothing problematic left in them. Any instance of a relationship or possible relationship between Luke and Leia was trimmed out. Other than the swing across the chasm in the Death Star, Luke and Leia don't even have a conversation until Return of the Jedi when he tells her who she is. Only time Luke even shows interest in her is in Star Wars when he asks Han what he thinks of her, and that scene is just to set up that Han kind of likes her.

I've always maintained that the Luke Leia sibling thing was created to resolve a storyline they forgot had been cut out in the first place. Luke's on his own path and never could have gotten with Leia.

I think he was referring to Anakin as well. Besides I always thought it was pretty clear that Leia wasn't strong with the force otherwise Vader would've known something was up with her when he saw her.

No he's referring to Leia. Obi-wan made the same error you are making. Obi-wan thought Luke had to defeat the Emperor. Yoda recognized that Anakin was still the chosen one, Luke was not sent to defeat the Emperor, but to "defeat" Vader by restoring Anakin who could still restore the balance.

I think jim_cook87 has it. Neither child was powerful enough to vanquish Vader. Luke was a redeemer, if you will, for Anakin. By breaking through Anakin's guise as Vader, Luke was able to help his father fullfill his destiny.

uh, it's a plot device? At that time in the films we didn't know Luke and Leia were related.

Hell, at that time Lucas didn't know they were related.

eh, I doubt that. Escape from Cloud City gave a pretty good hint of Luke and Leia's telepathic link while at the same time proving it wasn't due to romantic love (since Leia loved Han). I think that was solid brickwork for the idea that Luke and Leia were siblings.

Yes, and the big fat kiss shown in the Hoth scene definitely laid the foundations for "Luke-Leia Taboo 3"

No it didn't. Watch it again. They weren't making out. She kissed Luke (closed mouth) to piss off Han. She doesn't even talk to Luke in that scene (or the entire movie, for that matter). It's all directed at Han.

I've seen guys kiss for a joke like that. Doesn't make them gay. Just shows a sense of humor. Han and Leia are on the poster in an embrace, fer chrissake.

I've said it before, Luke and Leia barely say two words to each other until the moment he tells her they are siblings. Other than "Aren't you a little short for a stormtrooper," and " Quick, we've got to get across. Find the control that extends the bridge," she doesn't speak to Luke in Star Wars. He blows up the Death Star and she STILL only talks to Han ("I knew there was more to you than money")! In Empire Strikes Back, her entire dialog to Luke is "It's a trap!"

People imagine what they want to see. The hero always gets the girl, so everyone assumes Luke will get Leia. I'm not going to say that it wasn't intended, because it in fact was. The radioplay version sets it up, I think the novel might (been a while since I read it), and an earlier version of Empire sets it up. But they cut all that out. There's nothing left that even hints at taboo. Closest is Luke kind of having the hots for her in Star Wars ("What do you think of her?" "I'm trying not to." "Good."). The next line shows that the whole exchange was purely to set up Han's interest, though. It's all formula.

Anyway, there's absolutely nothing to the Hoth kiss but what you bring to it. I know it's easy to go, "ewww," but I'm telling you, it's not there.

Now, if you read the part they cut out my whole argument goes up in flames. There WAS a scene that did in fact hint at something going on between the two of them. They cut it out because they were sending Luke off on his own path to become a Jedi and if he'd lost Leia to Han, he would have come off looking like a loser rather than a hero. The audience would have been aching for Luke to leave his training early so he could get the girl. This might have been an interesting parallel with Anakin, because he DID compromise his training to get the girl. This wasn't planned out in 1980, so they cut the scene and allowed Luke to follow his destiny unemcumbered by romance and allowed Han and Leia to become a couple.

Cutting the scene left it open for them to be able to make Luke and Leia siblings. The psychic connection also hinted at it, but not absolutely. Luke is a Force user. He could have communicated with anyone, possibly. The simplest explanation is usually the best. He was just closer to Leia than anyone else (that wasn't frozen in Carbonite). What's he going to do? Psychically call for Chewbacca? He's not going to call out to Han because the screenwriters know that would look silly. "Han, hear me now!" Then a shot of frozen Han's face?

They didn't want Luke to look like a complete geek for becoming a Jedi instead of going for Leia. Providence had left it open by cutting out the Luke Leia romantic scenes in the previous movies and even that psychic connection helped things along. They made Luke and Leia brother and sister.

There is nothing left in Empire Strikes Back to even hint as taboo.

Give me a break. You are minimizing the kiss because it doesn't fit your nice little theories. If another guy tried to kiss me like that, he would be on the ground.

Of course, it was meant to be a joke at Hahn;s expense. Doesn't change the fact that it was a romantic kiss and not a kiss shared between people who think they are siblings. Just check out Luke's reaction to it afterwords.

And remeber it was Luke who got all hot to trot after seeing the hologram of Leia! "She's beautiful" Thats what got his ass off that desert planet.

How can it be a joke at Han's expense and a romantic kiss at the same time?

As for Luke and the hologram...really, how much detail do you think he saw. For one thing, it was a bad hologram. For another, she had all those robes or whatever. It's not like he saw it in THX approved anamorphic digital WS where Leia wore nothing but a thong. It was a poor quality hologram, and he was an ill experienced FARM BOY. He wasn't excited about her specifically, he was excited about the prospect of ANY female. :p

What got Luke off Tatooine was the fact his aunt and uncle were killed and he wanted off that rock anyway. Rescuing a princess and learning the way of the Force is just icing on the cake. Of course he thought she was beautiful. He didn't know who she was. That's a long way from incest. Otherwise, Star Wars is pretty sexless. It's all setup. Han and Luke's conversation could have setup a rivalry, except that it doesn't go anywhere. Nothing happens in the rest of Star Wars; they go right to destroying the Death Star. Now we can go the Empire Strikes Back. So, other than the kiss, which I maintain is a joke, where else in the entire film is it even hinted that Luke and Leia might end up together? Luke heads to Dagobah right away and doesn't see Leia until the end of the film, after she's declared her love for Han.

What this is is residual from Star Wars. Viewers saw the playful rivalry set up between Luke and Han and assumed they would compete for Leia. They saw the kiss and thought, hmm, maybe there's something. Then it is DROPPED. The rest of the movie (before and after the kiss) sets up Han with Leia. When we get to Jedi and find out that Luke and Leia are siblings, we think back, "What about that kiss?!" Going back to the film, it turns out we were duped. There IS nothing around the kiss. Leia has her moment with Han before the kiss, shocks Han with a closed mouth kiss to his best friend, then she goes off with Han and they fall in love officially. There's nothing at all happening with Luke! It's just not there. This isn't pulled out of my ass like "Palpatine is a clone". It's all there on screen. The fact Luke and Leia don't have a single conversation should be enough. A chaste kiss between two friends to rile the true object of affection is NOT INCEST.

Now, there was a scene cut just prior to that which DID involve a near romantic kiss. I fully acknowledge that when pen was put to paper, they DID originally want Luke and Leia to be a possibility (because they weren't siblings yet-Darth Vader not recognizing Leia's Force presence while torturing her is enough for me). I'm just saying that it was cut and all references to it were cut. Simple basic screenwriting. They wanted Luke to go to become a Jedi and they couldn't have the audience antsy that Han was making time with Luke's girlfriend while he was "in school." The audience is supposed to root for Luke to stay until he sacrifices it to go and save his friends from death. There's a different vibe than Luke leaving Yoda to go and fight Han for Leia's hand.

So, Luke and Leia were briefly considered by the screenwriters of Empire Strikes Back until they decided that Luke had his own path to follow, so they cut out any reference to a romantic coupling.