Yoda specifically says that the Dark Side clouds everything. That's how Palpatine hid. If there's an extra Force bond with relations, it still doesn't explain why he didn't sense something about Leia. I have no idea why Palpatine couldn't sense Luke. Vader sensed there was something unusual about Luke at the Battle of Yavin, although I have an argument that says Vader being Luke's father came up during brainstorming for Empire. My case isn't as strong for that, though.

As to how Leia felt Luke, it could have been that, or maybe not. I can't say for absolute certain. You can feel it in your gut all you want but it still can't be proven. I can't prove MY view from that isolated scene. Can you say for certain that Luke COULDN'T have communicated with anyone else? He calls Leia by default. Yoda even mentions that through the Force you can see old friends. That may be reaching, but it's at least something.

The scene I linked to with Luke and Leia about to REALLY kiss WAS filmed. The link shows a picture of it. That leads me to believe that at that point they hadn't considered that they were related unless they were going for some sick farce, which I refuse to entertain. Someone better come up with some REAL evidence that Lucas wanted to have that type misunderstanding. Does it then make sense that they would have decided by the end of the script that Luke and Leia were siblings without revising the earlier part of the script before filming? I'm not saying you are wrong (or I am right), but that just doesn't make sense to me. Films aren't shot in sequence. The final scene could have been filmed first for all we know.


Who knows? I'd just like to say that I'm not insisting I'm right about any of this. I do believe it, but everyone is welcome to his own interpretation. I just wonder if it really makes anyone feel better to laugh at a sick joke at the expense of the movie and the characters we've grown to love and believe that Lucas is a pervert or to look at from the angle I presented and have a wholesome, fun experience?

You decide.

I thought of something.

Luke definately could contact Leia cause they're brother and sister (and thus both have the force).

The proof?

During the end of ROTS, Yoda had to use a radio to contact the forceless Bail Organa. So even if Han wasn't frozen in ESB Luke could not have contacted him.

I suppose if you want to use events that happen in ROTS (2005) to prove that Lucas had decided Leia was Luke's sister when ESB (1980) was made, I can save you some effort. In ROTJ (1983) he states conclusively that Leia is Luke's sister. Can't get much more definitive than that. Do you see the problem of using retroactive history to prove something? My argument this whole time is that, when they were making ESB, they hadn't yet decided they were siblings. They had originally written a romantic triangle between Luke, Leia and Han. When they realized that it didn't fit into the story very well they jetisoned those elements. I can't believe, without some proof, that Lucas intended to have an incestuous hook in his story from the beginning. When those story elements were gone then they were able to use some events that were meant to be ambiguous as a hook to develop into them being siblings. The only reason they became siblings was to tie up a loose end that was never really loose. I think they forgot that they had cut out the romantic story with Luke and Leia.

Ask yourself, why would Yoda have been so against Luke going to save Leia if he was counting on her to be the backup plan? It's because the original plan was to introduce Luke's sister in Episode 8. She was the last hope. They decided not to do the last three episodes and tied up loose ends in Jedi. I'm still not entirely convinced that they even tell us that Leia is the other hope in Jedi, anyway. All Yoda says is there is another Skywalker. That doesn't mean that he's still referring to the last hope from his conversation with Obi Wan. It might, but it's not conclusive.

Besides, we still don't have any examples of Yoda or anyone communicating through the Force to anyone with Force powers. It's still only half a proof, even if we could accept retroactive proofs. I'm sure if we looked hard enough we might be able to find more examples of characters not using Force powers to communicate. Not sure what it proves. Luke calling Leia was really a deus ex machina just so they could get out of the story.

Force people can kinda sense one another.

Some examples:

In ANH Darth Vader senses Obi Wan.

In ROTJ Vader and Luke sensed each other.

In AOTC Yoda sensed Anakin’s pain when he slaughtered the sand people.

In ROTS Palpatine could sense Anakin was in pain after he almost died.

In ROTJ Leia sense Luke was fine when he escaped Death Star II.

Likewise, in ESB Leia sensed Luke.

I always though of that part in ESB as a foreshadowing of some sort. So even if by the end of ESB Lucas had not decided Luke and Leia would be related he obviously decided that Leia has some force powers.

Ok, I'll give you that. It was definitely some sort of foreshadowing.

Okay, dont know who said this stuff but i gotta address it.
1st: Someone said Leia was never sensed by Vader the way Luke was: True enough, but actually this was becuase Luke was embrassing more of the Force than her at the time, but, if you look when they are betrayed in ESB by Lando standing in close quarters in the room with the table that Vader sits at, there is a look exchanged between Leia and Vader that gave me the impression she was feeling something weird then.
2nd: Someone said Leia wasnt a Jedi, but read the books my friend, she becomes one, trains in the force, and has an ORANGE LIGHTSABOR
3rd: Someone said Luke would wipe the floor with Leia: He might while he was ahead of her in his training, but with enough time and her blaster abilities, I'm betting she could give him a damn good fight.

...

Darth Vader TORTURED her. If that doesn't fire up the old midichlorians I don't know what would , unless it was the meatloaf on Bespin (mmmm, Bantha)

Lucas has said they are children's films. He even said in the commentaries that they were designed to be emotionally healthy for children.

Anyway, why would Lucas introduce something like incest with no payoff? Unless he had planned on some type of Three's Company-type farce with slamming doors and funny misunderstandings then why bring that element into the story? Incest is not typical space opera/fantasy movie type stuff. It's not mainstream movie type stuff. It is taboo in almost every culture and has been taboo for 1000s of years. He may not be the best writer around, but even he knows you don't introduce a major element if you have no payoff. That's why he cut the Luke Leia romance. There was going to be no payoff. Luke had his path and it didn't involve Leia. The kiss that remains in ESB IS nothing. The one that was cut out WAS something. It was trimmed because it was a deadend plot. I've already gone into all that so I won't repeat it. He made Leia the sister so that Luke would not seem to have lost her to Han.

Vader also cut his son's arm off, chokes his pregnant wife, and killed the one father figure/brother he ever really knew. I mean the guy destroys everything, family doesnt stop him very often...

Chill out, buddy! Firstly, it was a joke. Secondly, I'm a guy.

That whole thing is almost sig material Almost, but not quite.

I dont understand some of the debate. I saw ROTJ recently and when Luke returns to Dagobah, Yoda on his deathbed says 'there is another' just like in ESB, and Luke asks what theyre talking about. Yoda disappears and Luke goes outside where he has a nice picnic on a log with ghost Ben and he says Yoda meant your sister, and Luke says, "Leia, Leia is my sister."

Do people not remember that scene or was I seeing something I wasnt supposed to?

Here's my 2 cents on this dilema:

I don't believe that Luke & Leia were established as brother & sister until Lucas was working on the script for ROTJ for the following reasons:

1) There's a pretty significant hint in the documentary "From Star Wars to Jedi". In an interview with Lucas, he reveals that he was having difficulty trying to find a reason why Luke would lash out in anger at Vader in the Emperor's throne room. Once Lucas decreed L & L were brother & sister, he had his answer.

2) Harrison Ford has repeatedly stated his desire to leave the trilogy after ESB. (The writing of his character in the 3rd film turned out to be pretty 2 dimensional... maybe it was good idea after all). It's pretty logical to assume that Leia would return to Luke in ROTJ to complete their relationship that began in ANH. However, once Lucas talked Ford into returning for the final film, steps had to be taken so there wouldn't be an uncomfortable rivalry between Luke & Han. The brother-sister thing was a way out.

3) The kiss on Hoth was passionate in my eyes. Although it's been a very long time since I saw the original film on the big screen, I do recall the audience wooing at this scene, verifying its passionate intent. The comments made about how Leia didn't talk to Luke for the rest of the film is really only because of circumstance... everyone was rushing to get off Hoth while Luke was defending the base from the AT-ATs. Following that, Luke was determined to go to Dagobah, whilst Leia found herself with no choice but to escape with Han in the Falcon. When Luke & Leia were finally reunited, Leia gave Luke a soft but passionate kiss while tenderly saying "I'll be back." She obvioulsy still had feelings for Luke despite her endeavors with Han.

4) I will definately agree that Luke could've mentally contacted Leia simply because they were close friends on the borderline of blooming into an actual relationship. (Oh yeah, and kudos to that Chewbacca comment... ROFL!) I disagree with the assumption that they had to be brother & sister at this point, as it would mean that Luke would have to know this before even attempting to contact Leia.

5) As for the line "No, there is another", well, that really could've been anything. As a reader of Spider-Man's ill-fated clone saga and having read the "Life of Reilly" documentaries, it doesn't surprise me that many writers put stuff like that in scripts with the intention of resolving it later. I would've also been satisfied with the fact that Anakin was the "other" Yoda spoke of. Or Chewbacca. :-)


I've always had issues with the story structure of ROTJ. The worst was how Luke turned from an impatient & clumsy boy who couldn't even keep up with Boba Fett in ESB, to very skillful Jedi would could take out Jabba's entire entourage without returning to Yoda. What, is this supposed to be an alternate universe? No wonder the actor for the Emperor changed.

These are my thoughts, not yours...

Visor

That's not what the gist of the debate was. I said, as an aside, that I'm not convinced that it's ever stated that Leia IS the other. Yoda says that there is, "another ...Skywalker." This doesn't necessarily mean that he is referring to the "other" from his conversation with Obi Wan. And if she was indeed "the other", why would Yoda have been against rescuing her if she was the "back up plan"? Anyway, it doesn't count because the debate is about whether or not they knew when they made Empire that Leia was Luke's sister. Visor has added very good concrete points to my arguments. I've simply argued that the fact that they originally planned a love triangle between Luke, Leia and Han shows that they had no intention of making Leia Luke's sister. I've also argued that, in the finished films, they cut out all references to a romantic possibility between Luke and Leia.


Thank you for all the points in your post. I feel even better about my stand. I disagree with this, however. In 1980, we, the audience, didn't know that they were setting up Leia with Han. The kiss seemed more than it was. Watch it again, with the benefit of hindsight. You'll see there is NO passion in it. It's solely for Han's benefit to get a rise out of him. Yes it is circumstance that keeps Luke and Leia away from each other. That's my point. Circumstance didn't allow them to properly develop that story point, so they dropped it. If there was any hint at a romance, wouldn't you think they would have found a way for them to have more than a couple words said at each other? Leia says "It's a trap!", and that's about it. Also, she says, "I'll be back, " and pecks him. There's no passion in that second kiss. Don't go by your memories of 25 years ago. Pop that movie in right now and see for yourself.

Hehehe....this is the answer, there's all kinds of things like that, the first 3 movies were made many years before the prequels, it would be impossible for it all to jive, I just simply don't try to be nitpicky about things like that.

Yes he was. He told Obi Wan "Yoda spoke of another". So it was obviously the same other hope that Yoda spoke of in ESB.

He said there is another Skywalker. Unless "Skywalker" is "another hope" in their language then we don't know that he was referring to his conversation with Obi Wan.

I'm not usually this nitpicky about detail, but everyone makes blanket assumptions without actually paying attention to what's being said. Yoda specifically says there is another "SKYWALKER" not "hope". Even if we did accept that he WAS talking about Leia being the next hope there, it DOESN'T COUNT. I may be taking a leap, but I'm pretty sure by the time they were filming scenes for ROTJ, they had determined Leia and Luke were siblings. You can't use stuff from ROTJ to prove that they knew what was in ROTJ when they made Empire. That's the whole debate.

Regardless what they thought in ESB, by the time we hear "another skywalker" in ROTJ we are to believe that's what Yoda was talking about.

As to why Yoda was against Luke going off, I guess cause it would make things worse as their primary hope was being too much of a loose canon. And they were right. As Obi Wan stated, it was then that ended up saving him.

Though if by the time ESB was almost finished it wasn't already decided Luke and Leia were supposed to be related, I wonder who the other hope would have been. And I wonder why Leia felt Luke if she was supposed to be forceless.

According to Gary Kurtz, they planned on introducing Luke's sister in Ep 8. It's possible that was the thought, but I believe (and I could have sworn I read it in the Annotated Screenplays-I just can't find the quote) that they put that in there hoping to get inspired later, just like in Visor's point number 5.

I don't think we'll ever have a definitive answer as to why Leia felt Luke. Closest I can come up with is that it was a Deus ex Machina to get out of the story. I've already mentioned how that bit evolved. First it was Han that rescued Luke, then it was ghost Obi Wan telling Leia, then it was Leia and Lando just happening to notice Luke, then finally they made Luke and Leia have a psychic connection. I really just don't think Lucas ever really meant anyone to study it that closely. It's a world with a magical Force that can do anything. Why NOT let Luke use it to contact help? And by default, the only one who coluld help him was Leia. That certainly opened the door to them coming up with the idea that they could be sibs. It's an epiphany. Visor hit the nail on the head. They made them sibs to give Luke motivation for becoming angry. Cutting the love stuff and having that psychic connection was a lucky stroke of inspiration. I'd almost compare it to Tolkien's use of the Ring in the Hobbit. It was originally just a magic ring to help Bilbo out in the story, but it became the center of the epic Lord of the Rings. Just a happy inspiration. Note that Tolkien had to revise old stories to make them fit in with his new ideas. Tolkien rewrote the scene with Gollum, Bilbo and the Ring. If Tolkien can do it, why not let Lucas?