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Four main questions and some guesses about ROTS and the original trilogy

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Four main questions and some guesses about ROTS and the original trilogy

Old 05-19-05, 06:05 PM
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Four main questions and some guesses about ROTS and the original trilogy

There are spoilers here!!!

Saw Sith last night. I enjoyed it. Was a tad dissapointed but nothing was going to live up to my expectations. But all in all I thought it was a fine film.

However it left some questions and some plot holes with the original trilogy. That I and other fans have had.

I am posting this to start a discussion and to put some of my own answers/guesses to my own questions and to hear the opinions of others. Because God knows my answers are just great big guesses. I wonder if the answers are just staring me in the face.



1. One of the more popular questions or statements about the film was that Anakin went to the dark side to quickly. My answer to this is from the mouth of Yoda in Empire. The dark side is "quicker, easier, more seductive" "Once you start down the dark path forever will it dominate you destiny, consume you it will, as it did Obi Won's apprentice.

2. Why is Vader looking for Skywalker in Empire? Vader thinks Padmé is Dead, with his unborn child along with her, which explains why he says "How is that possible?" when the Emperor says the new threat is the offspring of Skywalker. However he is running around looking for Skywalker. When Vader sees Probe Droid video of Hoth he says "That's it and I am sure Skywalker is with them"

I am at a loss here. Only answers I can think of is either a) Skywalker is a common name in a galaxy far far away, or b) His intrest is sparked because some young soldier who destroyed the Death Star is strong with the force and has the same last name as Anakin. He knows that Padme is dead but feels there must be achance his baby survived. His feelings know this to be true true. The Emperor just helps confirm this.

I am really not happy with either of my answers. Anybody got a better answer?


3. So 3PO has his memory erased but R2 does not. "Erase the Protocal Droids memory" says Bail Organa. However he makes no mention of R2. So that means R2 goes around in the prequels with a whole lot of Knowledge in his head. Does this make sense?? It would explain why R2 would say he was the property of Obi Won (even though I believe he says this because he is under orders to find him) , But Obi "don't seem to remember ever owning a droid" which leads to the next question

4. Why doesnt Obi won rememder R2. My only answer - Droids are as common place as forks and spoons so remembering one droid from another would not be very easy - I don't like that answer either but it would also explain which Uncle Owen don't remember 3PO


Any answers or more guesses to these questions out there.
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Old 05-19-05, 06:10 PM
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Originally Posted by TheBigHead
There are spoilers here!!!

Saw Sith last night. I enjoyed it. Was a tad dissapointed but nothing was going to live up to my expectations. But all in all I thought it was a fine film.

However it left some questions and some plot holes with the original trilogy. That I and other fans have had.

I am posting this to start a discussion and to put some of my own answers/guesses to my own questions and to hear the opinions of others. Because God knows my answers are just great big guesses. I wonder if the answers are just staring me in the face.



1. One of the more popular questions or statements about the film was that Anakin went to the dark side to quickly. My answer to this is from the mouth of Yoda in Empire. The dark side is "quicker, easier, more seductive" "Once you start down the dark path forever will it dominate you destiny, consume you it will, as it did Obi Won's apprentice.

I think this refers to it being quicker to obtain power not that it is quicker to become one with the dark side/give into it.

2. Why is Vader looking for Skywalker in Empire? Vader thinks Padmé is Dead, with his unborn child along with her, which explains why he says "How is that possible?" when the Emperor says the new threat is the offspring of Skywalker. However he is running around looking for Skywalker. When Vader sees Probe Droid video of Hoth he says "That's it and I am sure Skywalker is with them"

I am at a loss here. Only answers I can think of is either a) Skywalker is a common name in a galaxy far far away, or b) His intrest is sparked because some young soldier who destroyed the Death Star is strong with the force and has the same last name as Anakin. He knows that Padme is dead but feels there must be achance his baby survived. His feelings know this to be true true. The Emperor just helps confirm this.

I am really not happy with either of my answers. Anybody got a better answer?

Don't have a better answer but I would say it is (b).


3. So 3PO has his memory erased but R2 does not. "Erase the Protocal Droids memory" says Bail Organa. However he makes no mention of R2. So that means R2 goes around in the prequels with a whole lot of Knowledge in his head. Does this make sense?? It would explain why R2 would say he was the property of Obi Won (even though I believe he says this because he is under orders to find him) , But Obi "don't seem to remember ever owning a droid" which leads to the next question

Cause 3PO is a loud mouth that you can't trust with anything and he has a bit more of a connection to Vader (that's debatable).

4. Why doesnt Obi won rememder R2. My only answer - Droids are as common place as forks and spoons so remembering one droid from another would not be very easy - I don't like that answer either but it would also explain which Uncle Owen don't remember 3PO


Any answers or more guesses to these questions out there.
All he says is that he doesn't remember owning a droid. He never says he doesn't remember him.
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Old 05-19-05, 06:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Mrs.Nesbit
All he says is that he doesn't remember owning a droid. He never says he doesn't remember him.
Correct. Pamde gave R2 to Anakin he was not Obi Won's droid. So he probably did recognize him if you want to ignore the fact that Lucas is trying to tie these together the best he can and some things just don't match up exactly.
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Old 05-19-05, 06:21 PM
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I still think for Anakin to turn so quickly it has more to do with "Once you start down the dark path forever will it dominate you destiny, consume you it will, as it did Obi Won's apprentice"

I like your answer for #3. I am going to stick with that one.


Don't agree with four becuse if R2 never had his memory erased and Obi remembers him, then what were they doing? Just keeping it their little secret.

I know there is no right or wrong answer. But this geeky stuff is fun.
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Old 05-19-05, 06:25 PM
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Originally Posted by darkside
Correct. Pamde gave R2 to Anakin he was not Obi Won's droid. So he probably did recognize him if you want to ignore the fact that Lucas is trying to tie these together the best he can and some things just don't match up exactly.
He should have at least then erased R2 memory. Becuse I think the conversation would have went a little different If R2 remembed Obi Won. He probably would have started talking about the good ol days and the fun times they had together.
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Old 05-19-05, 06:27 PM
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Originally Posted by TheBigHead
There are spoilers here!!!
Ditto that!

My thought on these questions...

Originally Posted by TheBigHead
1. One of the more popular questions or statements about the film was that Anakin went to the dark side to quickly.
I agree with your answer, and would also add that Anakin consistently displayed a profound lack of patience. Combine that with his overwhelming fear that Padme was going to die, and it is easy to see why he turned as quickly as he did.

Originally Posted by TheBigHead
2. Why is Vader looking for Skywalker in Empire?
This one seems like a no-brainer to me. At the end of ROTS, Vader believes his wife and unborn child to be dead. Then, in ANH he enounters a new rebel pilot who is strong with the force. That alone would be enough to arouse his curiosity. So, when he finds out that the boy is named Skywalker, he realizes that a) he does have a surviving child, and b) the Emperor lied to him about Padme. So, he becomes obsessed with finding his son, undoubtedly with the idea in mind that he will turn his son, kill the Emperor, and fulfill his dream that he expressed at the end of ROTS (and again in ESB) of ruling the Galaxy. Naturally, he would want to keep these thoughts hidden from the Emperor, so he plays dumb when Palpatine "reveals" the identity of their new enemy.

Originally Posted by TheBigHead
3. So 3PO has his memory erased but R2 does not. "Erase the Protocal Droids memory" says Bail Organa. However he makes no mention of R2. So that means R2 goes around in the prequels with a whole lot of Knowledge in his head. Does this make sense??
Not quite sure what you mean here. The memory wipe occurs at the end of the prequels, so I don't see how R2 is going around during the prequels with all of this knowledge. If you mean that he is going around during the OT, then that's a different story. In that case, I like the explanation that he was far more heroic in the PT, and also much less likely to be "made to talk" (unlike 3PO, who would spill his entire life's story at the drop of a hat). Plus, it helps to explain how R2 knew right where to find Obi-Wan.

Originally Posted by TheBigHead
4. Why doesnt Obi won rememder R2.
Who says he doesn't? He says that he doesn't remember owning a droid, but that is a very vague statement in itself, but even then, how do we know he isn't lying to Luke (presumably to protect him, since at that point it was yet to be determined whether he could get Luke safely off the planet -- he might have figured it would be better to keep the boy in ignorance).

Well, those are my thoughts.

Last edited by RoboDad; 05-19-05 at 06:29 PM.
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Old 05-19-05, 06:40 PM
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The real answer is that Lucas should of started off the prequels with Anakin at an older age. He didn't have enough time to cram all the answers into the films.
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Old 05-19-05, 06:51 PM
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Originally Posted by TheBigHead
There are spoilers here!!!


2. Why is Vader looking for Skywalker in Empire? Vader thinks Padmé is Dead, with his unborn child along with her, which explains why he says "How is that possible?" when the Emperor says the new threat is the offspring of Skywalker. However he is running around looking for Skywalker. When Vader sees Probe Droid video of Hoth he says "That's it and I am sure Skywalker is with them"

I am at a loss here. Only answers I can think of is either a) Skywalker is a common name in a galaxy far far away, or b) His intrest is sparked because some young soldier who destroyed the Death Star is strong with the force and has the same last name as Anakin. He knows that Padme is dead but feels there must be achance his baby survived. His feelings know this to be true true. The Emperor just helps confirm this.

I am really not happy with either of my answers. Anybody got a better answer?


Any answers or more guesses to these questions out there.

In ANH, right at the end when Vader is chasing Luke during the Death Star trench run, he says to himself " The force is strong with this one " so he must have felt, or known that it was his son, or another jedi that had slipped through the cull we saw in ROTS.

He would have looked his name up somewhere at some rebel hideout they found I presume.
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Old 05-19-05, 06:55 PM
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Originally Posted by TheBigHead
Vader thinks Padmé is Dead, with his unborn child along with her, which explains why he says "How is that possible?" when the Emperor says the new threat is the offspring of Skywalker. However he is running around looking for Skywalker. When Vader sees Probe Droid video of Hoth he says "That's it and I am sure Skywalker is with them"
Your issue seems to be more with the (newly-filmed) ESB dialog. Frankly, I agree. The "How is that possible?" line makes no sense.

ESB opens with Vader obsessed with finding Skywalker. Obviously, at this point he knows it's his son. Now, there is now a scene in the middle of the film with Palpy telling Vader (for the first time) that Luke exists. And Vader at least appears to be surprised. This makes no sense. Is Vader lying to Palpy? Wouldn't Palpy sense this? It's a strange, unnecessary change.


Of course, you could also add #5 to your list, which is a big one for me.

#5. How the hell does Anakin become a ghost at the end of RotJ? In either form (the classic older form or the 2004 Hayden form) it makes no freaking sense given what we learn in Episode III. I'd love for someone to explain this to me, since Lucas seemed to think it was so terribly important, yet spent about 2 minutes on it in the entire prequel trilogy.
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Old 05-19-05, 06:56 PM
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Originally Posted by RoboDad
Ditto that!

My thought on these questions...


I agree with your answer, and would also add that Anakin consistently displayed a profound lack of patience. Combine that with his overwhelming fear that Padme was going to die, and it is easy to see why he turned as quickly as he did.
Also in agreement.

Lack of patience along with shaken faith in his fellow Jedi, disappointment with not being appointed Master and seeds of doubt being sown by Sideous...he was already conflicted.

Then...

Have you ever heard the term "sliding down a slippery slope"? I think this compounds the events as well. Anakin has killed a fellow Jedi. What would be his next move? Go to the remaining Council and explain himself? He made a life-altering mistake and Sidious presented him with a choice. There was pretty much no turning back from that point.
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Old 05-19-05, 07:07 PM
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Originally Posted by bboisvert
Frankly, I agree. The "How is that possible?" line makes no sense.
It makes perfect sense from the angle that he wanted to find Luke, turn him and together strike down the Emperor and rule the galaxy together.

Just like he wanted to do with Padme. But after getting chopped up and put in the suit, he was no longer powerful enough to even consider attacking Palpatine on his own. One blast of force lighting would fry his life support stuff.

Thus he was just playing dumb in front of Palpatine.
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Old 05-19-05, 07:09 PM
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here's a question i'm not sure if its been asked or answered. when sidious uses his lightning to attack windu and is reflected back on him it made him older. when sidious used his lightning against yoda he seemed to get older as well. why didnt luke get older when he got zapped?
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Old 05-19-05, 07:13 PM
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Originally Posted by tavarua88
here's a question i'm not sure if its been asked or answered. when sidious uses his lightning to attack windu and is reflected back on him it made him older. when sidious used his lightning against yoda he seemed to get older as well. why didnt luke get older when he got zapped?
Think of it as evil turning in upon itself and consuming the "physical form" of Palpy whereas in Luke's and Mace's case, the intention was for them to get electrocuted.

And if you want to get even more complicated, in the books, it's explained that Palpatine was just a "mask" which melted away and revealed Sidious' true form underneath. Either explanation works for me.
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Old 05-19-05, 07:34 PM
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Actually, only the second (book) explanation works for me. As I see it, the only effect the lightning had on him was to reveal his true form. It was pretty clear to me that Palpatine was putting on a show for Anakin's "benefit." He was never weakened, nor was he really injured. Unless, of course, you believe that he was miraculously cured the instant Mace's light saber was gone, when he gleefully shouted "unlimited power!" as he zapped Mace out the window.
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Old 05-19-05, 07:47 PM
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Originally Posted by darkside
Correct. Pamde gave R2 to Anakin he was not Obi Won's droid. So he probably did recognize him if you want to ignore the fact that Lucas is trying to tie these together the best he can and some things just don't match up exactly.
I'm sure they see dozens of droids a day in their world, and Kenobi was probably never expecting that the exact same R2 unit would show up at his doorstep so many years later. Droids don't think, and just the same it's not like you can use the force to "sense" anything from a droid either.

So I have no believability problems with the R2 and C3PO crossovers from the OT to the prequels. I like how Lucas ended it in Episode III in fact.

The problem I have is all the crazy advanced abilities that R2 has in the prequels that he doesn't have in the 4-6. Were they dismantled? Seems questionable to me.

Oh well, awesome movie.
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Old 05-19-05, 08:04 PM
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ok, maybe i was seeing things but after yoda got zapped it seemed he was turning older as well. not sure how that factors in.

Originally Posted by RoboDad
Actually, only the second (book) explanation works for me. As I see it, the only effect the lightning had on him was to reveal his true form. It was pretty clear to me that Palpatine was putting on a show for Anakin's "benefit." He was never weakened, nor was he really injured. Unless, of course, you believe that he was miraculously cured the instant Mace's light saber was gone, when he gleefully shouted "unlimited power!" as he zapped Mace out the window.
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Old 05-19-05, 08:09 PM
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I think this thread proves one thing. That Lucas couldn't possibly answer every little question. If he did, fans would find some other question that needed to be answered. That's why I've always said this nonsense about Obi-Wan or Owen not remembering 3PO or R2 is nonsense that doesn't need to be tied-up or answered.

Only the major plot lines needed to be tied-up, and only the major questions need to be answered.
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Old 05-19-05, 08:21 PM
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I've noticed alot of confusion and questions about Vader looking for Luke and knowing/not knowing about him.

I thought it is pretty clear that Vader knows of Luke being his son before the Emperor does, even with the old dialog. Vader has a search out for Luke before the Emperor even tells him about the new enemy.

I can live with Vader finding out offscreen between ANH and ESB about finding out about his son.
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Old 05-19-05, 08:33 PM
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I think Vader found out when he was about to kill Luke in ANH. Then in ESB and ROTJ he tries to lure Luke to help him kill the emperor so he can take over.
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Old 05-19-05, 08:35 PM
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1. Im not so sure why people call his turn to the dark side "fast"... he had been teetering on the brink during Ep II... and years later his wife's death and the Emporer's manipulations finnally push him over the edge and down the path of the dark side. At same point he does make a decision that cements his fate, but he had been heading that way for years.


2. Lots of possible answers to this one... but what I'm trying to remember, is when is it specified that Vader is looking for Luke (as opposed to "that ship" or "the rebels" etc etc). It seems to me that if nothing else, Vader senses his power in the force in Ep IV... and having not had a worthy rival in almost 2 decades, he is looking for the advesary that 'got away'. If thats the case, than he should be surprised to know that its Skywalker. If not, the only explanation is that he's BS'ing the Emporer for some reason, which may or may not have been to overthrow him at that point.

AFA the classic "I don't seem to remember ever owning a droid", I think its funny that people keep talking about R2 this and R2 that.... R2 wasn't his droid... on the other hand, it sure seemed to me that R4 was his droid. R4 was stuck in ObiWans personal ship several times... if he didn't own it, was he borrowing it? Did he steal it? lol! anyway... just think its funny that people forget about R4...

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Old 05-19-05, 08:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Terrell
I think this thread proves one thing. That Lucas couldn't possibly answer every little question. If he did, fans would find some other question that needed to be answered. That's why I've always said this nonsense about Obi-Wan or Owen not remembering 3PO or R2 is nonsense that doesn't need to be tied-up or answered.

Only the major plot lines needed to be tied-up, and only the major questions need to be answered.
exactly...
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Old 05-19-05, 08:59 PM
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Some responces to some replys.

Your issue seems to be more with the (newly-filmed) ESB dialog. Frankly, I agree. The "How is that possible?" line makes no sense.

ESB opens with Vader obsessed with finding Skywalker. Obviously, at this point he knows it's his son. Now, there is now a scene in the middle of the film with Palpy telling Vader (for the first time) that Luke exists. And Vader at least appears to be surprised. This makes no sense. Is Vader lying to Palpy? Wouldn't Palpy sense this? It's a strange, unnecessary change.



OK I love that answer!! That makes sense!


So that means R2 goes around in the prequels with a whole lot of Knowledge in his head. Does this make sense??

Yeah I ment the original films not the prequals.



I think this thread proves one thing. That Lucas couldn't possibly answer every little question. If he did, fans would find some other question that needed to be answered. That's why I've always said this nonsense about Obi-Wan or Owen not remembering 3PO or R2 is nonsense that doesn't need to be tied-up or answered.

These questions I ask are not complaints. But I thought they left the biggest plot holes. So far I think the answers are great. This is not an attack on Lucas.


Im not so sure why people call his turn to the dark side "fast"... he had been teetering on the brink during Ep II... and years later his wife's death and the Emporer's manipulations finnally push him over the edge and down the path of the dark side. At same point he does make a decision that cements his fate, but he had been heading that way for years.

Thats because he goes from feeling bad about helping Mace get killed to killing children himself. Thats a pretty big jump. But I like all the answers, including my own.


I am still not nuts about R2s memory not being erased. Seems like he would be happier to see Obi Won. Sure Obi says droids have no feelings but R2 and 3po are not your average droids.

Oh well. Thats about the only thing now that bothers me now and that aint bad. The whole Qui force ghost thing has lots of holes but that don't get to me as much.

Don't ask me why. Probably because the more mystery there is about the force the better.

Anyways thanks for the replys.
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Old 05-19-05, 10:22 PM
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In ANH Lars seems to carry alot of animosity towards that crazy wizard Ben Kenobi, forbidding Luke from associating with him. Was this to protect Luke from the same fate as his father?? They seem to be on good terms at the end of RotS.
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Old 05-19-05, 10:43 PM
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Well we don't know what Kenobi tells Lars about Anakin. I don't think Kenobi went into detail about him killing Anakin. He probably lied and told him that he died fighting but then what does he tell him about Padme? I think he doesn't want Luke to get involved with the Crazy old hermit because Luke is his cheap labor around the farm.
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Old 05-19-05, 10:43 PM
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I thought the way Lars was distanced from Ben and Beru meant that he was not 100% with the idea.
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