Well said, Abob Teff.

While I think Qui Gon Jim, Terrell and others have a valid point about there being a difference between a kid seeing STAR WARS for the first time and a jaded adult watching the prequel trilogy, I still must reiterate that Lucas is missing something key here.

It's true that everything moves faster nowadays, and "event" movies come and go, but we musn't forget that it was STAR WARS that created this landscape of big blockbuster movies with merchandise tie-ins to begin with. Lucas understood better than anyone how to play the game, he created the game. He succeeded in marrying timeless entertainment with cutting edge special effects. It seems these days, he has forgone the timeless entertainment part, and the technology is his only priority. This is the case because of all his other business interests: ILM, LucasArts, THX, etc. It seems now his concern is synergy, not storytelling.

At any rate, good discussion. Here's hoping it doesn't degrade into the old GL-hater/Fanboy bickerfest.

With regards to the prequels, while I think it's a bit much to say us not being kids anymore is the reason we don't like them is a bit silly. There was something more to those original films that made them great. Now, for the record, I despised Phantom Menace but quite liked Attack of the Clones. AoTC I thought was back to the fun serial adventures of the originals, with bigger effects and a story that really gave some background into the Star Wars universe. What these movies are missing though are endearing characters. Luke was, imo, always somewhat of a flat character, so I can't necessarily say Anakin is that much worse. But in hte prequels we dont' have anyone of the Han Solo, Carrie Fisher variety, characters who are fun and we just love to watch. AOTC was much better, as McGregor's Obi Wan I think is a much closer step to the star wars characters we love, but save for him and yoda, it's severly lacking. Dooku I thought was a good addition, but when our two major characters (Padme and Anakin) are performed fairly mediocrely, and just aren't that interesting, some of that spark is lost. now Anakin's story by nature is rather interesting, so his descent into darkness will be interesting to watch, because it really is the genesis of one of the greatest villians around. But I think Lucas is just coming back into his own...if we see the leap in quality that I thought AoTC had about PM, then Episode 3 could very well be great. Especially considering the rich story that movie has the potential to have, and the addition of a screenwriter like Tom Stoppard who might put some polish on the material.

Lucas' problems with directing are mostly with actors IMO. His handling of action scenes and pacing for the most part I think is quite good, and I for one love his use of special effects. Sure some harp they look fake, but hey that monster on the asteroid planet in ESB looked like a glorified sock puppet, but that doesn't mean it didn't look hella cool. This stuff imo is just even more complex, but still really awesome. Who didn't like the sub woofer pounding explosions in AoTC asteroid chase, or the awesome arena fight? I for one thought that was exactly what I wanted to see in a Star Wars film, and am really excited by what's coming next.

ESB has held up over time. But what's your argument, that it proves that one was the best simply because Lucas didn't direct it? That's crazy. Star Wars and Return of the Jedi have held just as well as ESB. The entire Star Wars Trilogy has held up as well as any old film ever has.

Yes, and who created and wrote that story? George Lucas!

ANH deserved the nods not only because it was revolutionary, but also because it was a great film the generally received higher critical reviews than ESB.

No offense, but that's a silly comparison.

When did I say you did? I said most casual Star Wars fans would probably choose that one. I know a lot of casual Star Wars fans, and most of them like that one more than the other two.

No, you should move on because you don't like the prequels and you want good storytelling. If you hate the prequels and they're not giving you that, stop investing time in them and move onto something else that will give you that. There are a whole lot of movies I don't like. But I don't spend inordinate amounts of time whining about how they suck and how their director sucks. I don't go in every thread and continually make the point that they suck, where as prequel haters have a tendency to bring that point up in every Star Wars thread.

My point is okay, we heard you the first time. We don't need to hear it another hundred times. It's been 5 years now. Move onto something you enjoy. You'll have much more fun. Make sense?

The difference is Lean was making his films better.

And lots of threads having nothing to do with Star Wars.

Quote:

My point is okay, we heard you the first time. We don't need to hear it another hundred times. It's been 5 years now. Move onto something you enjoy. You'll have much more fun. Make sense?

A-f'n-men to that!

Don't say that too loud, everybody will think I'm surrounded by "yes" men and have gotten out of touch with the fans of my posts.

Since none of your statements brought anything new to the table nor provided any evidence of anything, I'll just agree with your final statement.

I provided as much evidence as you did. Actually, I feel I made sound arguments. Star Wars and ESB are both great films. ROTJ is not a great film, but I feel it is a very good film, despite some flaws. The original Star Wars trilogy is a great trilogy that has stood the test of time. I just don't agree with the notion that Lucas needs to give up his work to someone else simply because some fans didn't like Episode 1 or 2 If he wants to let someone else take over the reins, that's fine. But the other argument smacks of selfishness. That's my stance on the issues

We don't agree on some of the issues. That's fine. We discussed it respectfully. I enjoyed the debate. If only all Star Wars discussions could be discussed in such a manner.

By the way, when I said move on, that wasn't necessarily directed at you. It was just a statement that people who continually whine about Lucas and the prequels and let us hear about constantly, shoud move on and stop spending so much time on a subject that they don't enjoy. Though I know there is no likelihood of that happening.

poor little Luke!

Mark Hamill is a terrible actor. So, who really cares who he blames for that.

I just want to say that I am not just a casual fan, but Jedi is my favorite of the 3 originals.

I understand objectively and critically that ESB may be the best on a filmmaking level, but it cannot compare to the absolute joy and happiness I had when I saw Jedi in the theater way back when. As a kid, Jedi was the pinnacle of the movie going experience for me.

Now bear in mind that I am more of a fan of the Jedi and lightsaber duels than anything else, and for me the saber battle and cool stuff Luke did in ROTJ was like crack to me. I couldn't get enough and it was all I talked about for like a year after. All I wanted in life was a lightsaber and a cycle like the one Luke/Leia rode on Endor. All my friends liked Han and the space battle stuff, but I was a Luke fan all the way. (This is not to say I dislike those at all, I loved them too)

Probably why I didn't like ESB when I was 8 and to this day still is a disappointment to me as the "good guys" didn't win due to the nostalgic memories from my childhood. I actually cried leaving the theater.

I love all things star wars and have read all the related books, and played all the games so I am more than a casual fan, but Jedi will forever be my favorite.

Regarding the prequels, my 5 year old daughter absolutely loves Attack of the Clones, but doesn't care for the original trilogy at all. Go figure.

OK that's it! It's back on then! I'm always looking for people who enjoy debating me civilly!

I'm not demanding that Lucas give up Star Wars, I'm merely saying (and I think that you can agree) that he could make it THAT much better by bringing in some outside collaboration. Can you honestly say that you feel ESB would have been as good as it is if Lucas had flown solo? (No pun intended.) My god, just think what Ep 1 could have been if he had brought on, say Kevin Smith (not for his goofiness, but for his love of the material) as a writer and Christopher Nolan as a director?

I'm saying that the fact that ESB was not received well initially, but then later grew to much greater appreciation is a sign that it is a much sturdier movie than one that opened to massive praise.

I just wanted to step into this to point out that Leigh Brackett had very little to do with the ESB screenplay.

She produced a short story treatment/draft, and then died.

They later went in almost an entirely different direction with the film and very little of her ideas ever made it on the screen. Lucas maintained her credit (a) as a 'thank you' tribute to her work and (b) to avoid any potential litigation from her estate, given that she created the first treatment. But her contributions to the film were minimal at best.

But, putting that aside, it is true that ESB was the film that Lucas had the least involvement with. In fact, he was pretty disappointed with the final product, but had no time before release to rework the film.


And, shame on anyone for believing this Mark Hamill bullshit article.

I wouldn't totally disagree with that. I do think he's trying to do too much himself with regard to the prequels. I think 90% of the problems could be solved with a great screenwriter. The dialogue would be better, therefor the acting would improve, and the story would be even tighter. Everything starts with the script. Lucas is a brilliant creator and writer of stories. He's just not the best screenwriter in the world and has admitted he's not that fond of doing it.

I still hold that Lucas is a very good director and still has it in him to direct a great film. But he's needs a great screenwriter who has the freedom to write the best screenplay possible.

Hard to say. Lucas was a master storyteller back then. Just look at the stuff he did. Star Wars, Indy, American Graffiti, and THX-1138. He was hungry. But Lucas went on a directing hiatus when his wife abandoned him with their child during ROTJ. He went 20 years without directing and 16 years withou being involved in Star Wars. That's bound to affect anyone. Not only that, he grew insanely rich and got too comfortable. His priorities changed when he had a family. All of these things change you.

Well, he wasn't disappointed from the standpoint that he thought it was a bad film. In fact, he thought it was a very good film. He even joked with Kershner about making it too good, a statement that's gotten taken completely out of context over the years. But Kurtz had gotten reckless with Lucas' money, and ended up taking the project 15 million over budget. That's why they split, not because of creative differences as Kurtz would have you believe. If you remember, Lucas was paying for this film out of his own pocket, and he worried himself sick over the bottom line. It even put him in the hospital. Lucas was disappointed the film would flop and people would hate it. It was extremely dark, had no real ending or beginning, ended sadly, and had a shocking turn. He thought that meant disaster for the film.

The big thing that really cut it with Kurtz and Lucas is that after the huge cost overruns, Lucas had to go back to Fox and ask for more money. They made him pay for it, because he played hardball with them before ESB started shooting. He really stuck it to them and got a sweetheart deal.

I can think of a whole lot better people than Smith and Nolan. Make no mistake, Nolan is a very good director. But he's not right for this material. Smith may love the material, but is not the screenwriter I'd choose. As a director, the best directors you could find for this material are Spielberg, Cameron, and Fincher. Maybe even Ridley Scott. All of them have known Lucas for years, and they're all very good friends. Well, Ridley and Lucas aren't. Not only that, they fit the genre and the material perfectly. Screenwriters would be either Kasdan, Stoppard, or Darabont.

You'll be happy to know that strong rumor suggests that indeed, Lucas sought help on the screenplay for Episode III, and reports are it's Oscar winner Tom Stoppard. According to Carl Cunningham over at CHUD, who spend 2-3 weeks on set down in Australia. He's seen the visual script. He's read many parts of the screenplay. According to him, there is a lot of very heavy dialogue that is not typical ofLucas. Moriarty from AICN, the only credible reporter on that site, also passed along reports that Stoppard helped with the script. Nobody can say for sure, only that there's a lot of powerful dialogue that's so far and above the first two films. So maybe you'll get your wish. We'll see.

The problem with that theory is ANH opened with more praise initially, and it still gets a ton of praise. Then again so does ESB. They're just different in tone and had to do different things. Truth be told, critics have heaped a lot more praise on all 3 films over the years than they did initially. But both Star Wars and ESB are great films. ROTJ is a very good film. My opinion at least.

You're certainly not alone in that thinking.

As it seems that we are coming closer together to understanding eachother here, I will relegate to just one comment that is kind of off track . . . the "heavy dialogue" is not surprising. Lucas left way too much ground to cover with Episode 3. Honestly, to get from the start point he set in Episode I to where we need to be in Episode IV really could cover another 3 movies.

Oh god . . . would he really do it? Retitle the first trilogy to Episodes 7, 8, and 9? Remember, ANH didn't have an episode number until its re-release before ESB.

You know, I think you have a point here.

I just re-watched TPM and AOTC the other day, and there really is a lot that needs to be covered in Ep III: the pregnancy, the foundation of the empire, the Jedi hunt-down, Anakin's turn.

It also really occurred to me just how superfluous Episode I really was. Basically, nothing important happens in it that couldn't have been covered by a couple of lines of dialogue in Ep. II. Just establish that Anakin was a foundling slave recovered by Obi-Wan's dead master, that Obi-Wan mentored him and trained him, and you're good to go.

I think the Prequel story arc probably should've gone like this:

Ep. I - The events of AOTC, except Anakin meets Amidala for the first time. Establish Obi-Wan's past through dialogue.)

Ep. II - Deals with Anakin's "fall" and ends with his apparent death.

Ep. III - The fallout from Ep. II. Darth Vader and Palpatine create the Empire and turn on the Jedi.

I totally agree. I happened to really like AOTC, and would love to see al these story elements over the course of a couple films. I dislike PM a lot, if nothing for it's fairly useless story, not to mention a really REALLY bad lead performance by that kid. Basically to the point I can't watch it.

Damn, if they had started wtih EP. 2 I honestly think a lot of the hate would be much less.

But hey, I think Episode 3 is going to be really freakin great. I think, besides Lucas getting back his directing ablity (20 year breaks can do that) I also think he's needed to adapt to the type of filmmaking he's doing, the all blue screen pretty much animated movie thing. While I know some hate it, I think it's a great way to do it (I shot my own no budget film using the same idea) but it's difficult to attune yourself to what is obviously a very different type of filmmaking. Too bad IMO it took one film for him to make a good one, but three has alll the elements to be just kick ass.