imo if The Last Samurai is tuna fish, Master and Commander is filet mignon. M&C had better acting, a smarter script, MUCH better music and didn't feel rushed with whole scenes left on the cutting room floor like TLS.

I liked Last Samurai quite a bit. The whole time it never felt like it was trying to be a big blockbuster hit, despite starring Tom Cruise.

You know I might have even posted in this thread before, but I rather liked the Last Samurai, and I also thought it did quite well. YEs, it had a big budget, but it's basically a drama mixed in with some action. Dramas on the whole don't sell well. Action/Adevnture movies sell. Comedies sell. But straight dramas really don't. There's a reason why good serious movies tend to not make money, people don't want to see them. Now to be fair The Last Samurai is not a straight drama. It's really an action/drama, but it's still a little too serious to be big money maker. Making over $100 million seems quite an accomplishment considering. And then you have the overseas box office.

I agree. I felt I had seen the same movie years before in Braveheart, and then the Patriot. The romance was undercooked, the training was undercooked, I felt the whole thing was raw.

I watched this with another guy and 2 girls and we all felt the same way.

"Master and Commander?? That was boring."

I agree. But for me, TLS was also, but not as bad as M&C.

I felt that the romance being undercooked was a wonderful part of the movie. Usual Hollywood movies have single attractive male + single attractive female= sex and possibly eventual marraige. It wouldn't have been realistic at all to have that in this movie.

It wasn't so much that the romance was underdeveloped as the characters themselves. Once you become fond of a character it is easier to imagine the implied romance. To their credit, a large chunk of the screenplay was body language. Some of this could be attributed to the language barrier between the lead characters and the secondary.

The lack of romance was just a symptom of the bigger problem. The movie could have moved forward without it by replacing romance with deeper character development. Instead the screenplay skimmed across characters never really staying with secondary characters long enough to "get to know" them. I simply did not care if any of the characters lived or died.

I personally loved TLS and being half-Japanese, I thought it was a good "re-introduction" to the aspects of bushido and "chambara/jidai-geki" films. This movie, along with Japan's "Tasogare Seibei (Twilight Samurai)" and "Mibu Gishi Den (When the Last Sword is Drawn)" would actually inspire other Japanese filmmakers to resurrect the genre. There was an interview with Ryuhei Kitamura (director of Versus, Azumi, Aragami and Sky High) in the website Midnight Eye who stated he loved TLS and hoped this movie would bring a bright future to the genre that Japan had been known for.

However, I think TLS was not as positively accepted in the US due to the following:

- "Dances with Wolves" came out beforehand and was unfairly compared to

- ROTK was also showing simultaneously

- "Tom Cruise" syndrome wherein everyone either hates him or likes him. A lot seem to say he was miscast but then again, he was a co-producer.

But yet, if it was less-known actor who would've portrayed Algren or much worse...a non-Caucasian lead character, then I really think TLS would not have been made.

It does disturb me that some moviegoers wish to think Tarantino's Kill Bill is a true interpretation of how Japan really is.

I loved Tarantino's version of the old 70s chopsocky, Shaw movies that blended well with the storyline of Shurayukihime (Lady Snowblood). But Kill Bill is from Tarantino's "movie/video" world, not what Tokyo or Okinawa is where everyone carries a katana!!!

I ain't talking about that. I am talking about the fact there was a romantic angle to the whole thing. The guy killed your husband, the father of your kids - yeah allright it was great that he died in battle so be it - but in a span of a year, you are ready to shack up with the guy?

Plus it had the whole Jerry Maguire - stealing pooty from single mother vibe going for it.


Bleh. I don't think thats realistic..even for semi-modern Japan.

And Last Samurai has now grossed nearly 450 million dollars worldwide.

Bomb = no
Underachiever = no
Big Ass Hit = YES

If there is one thing I´m sick and tired of, its people calling "bomb" on films that just aren´t anything near it. For instance, I´ve heard the phrase "bombed at the boxoffice" applied to films like Hook (300 million), Hulk (250 million) and "disappointing grosses" for films like Harry Potter 2 (800+ million) and Attack of the Clones (600+ million). The extent of bloated expectations people have is beyond me.

My definition of a box office bomb will be a movie not earning at least 1/2 of what it cost to make (not including marketing). But again that's only my definition.

In regards to the Last Samurai, this movie was not a bomb.

I think what people are hung up on is that it underperformed in America. But people need to look internationally and realize what an amzing perfomer this film is. TLS is the definintion of an international hit. It made two times as much overseas as it did in America. This film could have turned a profit even if it never showed on a single screen in the USA.

TLS is a fascinating example of making a film that will play to an international audience.

A good example of the opposite of this phenomenon is The Alamo. The poster scott shelton keeps insisting that The Alamo will turn a profit from anciliary markets, but the story of The Alamo has zero interest overseas. When I think about it, it really is a miracle that that film even got made. These days big budget movies have to have international appeal and The Alamo has none.

So what? Any movie worth its salt will make money back internationally. Unless its a real stinker like the Alamo that has no broad appeal because its a specific American story.

The movie business is not about "making money internationally" You put a decent star in any film, market it, and you can usually make money anywhere.

The point is "opportunity costs" - i.e. could that money have been used to fund a different, bigger money making movie or did you turn other projects because your schedule was already full.

They'll make it wherever they can get it.

What are you talking about? A studio doesn't care where it makes money. If it gets 1 billion international and $100,00 domestic, I think they'll be laughing all the way to the bank.

I would also disagree that putting a star in a movie automatically makes it money. There are tons of movies with "stars" in it that bombed domestically and abroad.

Finally opportunity costs is also somewhat faulty. Sure you'd like to maximize your profits, but no one knows what other projects might have earned. Surely backing The Last Samurai prevented other projects from going forth, but there's no evidence those other projects would even be profitable (and really no way to know), let alone garner the money that The Last Samurai did.

I'd even take issue with this statement. Underperformed in what way? Did people honestly believe this movie would make $150 or $200 million. And did they have any reasonable basis for believeing that?

This movie is more dramatic than action, and it is also heavly based in Japanese culture. Neither are big selling points to the average American consumer

Not to mention its R rating. People forget that an R rating has, in general, been something that has prevented movies from being huge. Very few R rated movies crack 150 million, and only 5 or 6 have ever seen north of 200 million in the US.

The international market though...these types of movies are made with very clear knowledge that the international market will make of a larger part of the gross. Action, adventure, spectacle, those things are eaten up all over. I'm sure many are pointing to Troy as a failure for it's soon to be 130-150 million dollar gross. But no doubt with star power like Brad Pitt (who is immensely popular over seas, moreso than here I imagine) it's a pretty good bet that flick will double or triple it's gross from international sales.

What?

I meant booty..

I think we in America are seriously blind when it comes to foreign grosses. It's starting to change -- I remember when they weren't even REPORTED hardly — but it still somehow sticks in people's minds as "inferior" money some how, as if a buck made in Cincinnati counts more than one made in Singapore.

I agree, for some reason international doesn't count to some people. I think of all the top grossing movie lists...the ones where they adjust for inflation. And they ALWAYS use domestic, so that Titanic is not the number one movie.

What people seem to forget is for most of the action, epic, and adventure big budget movies, they for the most part make half to 2/3rd their money overseas. Matrix, LoTR, Star Wars, hell anything...you'll notice that. And the studios know this very well...

Take a look at Troy...that movie is on it's way to 400-500 million worldwide, but the only thing anyone will mention is its underwhelming US gross.

I bet if you ask any other studio, if they could go back in time and have the rights and results that the Last Samurai yielded, would they put their backing into it, ALL of them would say yes.

Opportunity cost doesn't even factor in to this because the net income isn't marginal at all. It was a flat out profit.

I was just responding to Dr. DVDs comment on how he thought kill bill delved deeper into Japanese culture than the Last Samurai did.

Didnt see it but from what I read he was too Tom Cruis-ish in the role which was rather distracting.

Yeah, things have really changed. They call them ancilliary, but really DVD & foreign are just as important if not more so than the domestic these days. It really requires a different frame of mind.

That said, even if the total domestic amount is a bit under what they were hoping, the earning pattern shows Cruise for the machine he is. He limped that bitch week after week until it hit $100 million. Most other films opening like that would've been lucky to get to $70 million.