I was going to start a thread around the same lines. I think a lot of the disdain for the movie may come from this alone. The more I aruge that Reloaded doesn't stand alone the more I realize that maybe it's not meant to, but is that fair to the viewer? When you watch a movie that is essentially a commerical for the next one, it does manage to leave a bitter taste in the mouth. Like I mentioned earlier it seems that the substance to the movie happened all at the end, only to drop you off.

Reloaded is part of the Matrix story. Do you expect every chapter in a book to be a standalone story? I think that is why they filmed Reloaded and Revolutions at the same time. Because it is like a two part story.

I can definitely agree with this being a risky move. Some viewers will have a problem with this movie not being a tidy package in and of itself. Is it fair? I think so, as nobody hid the fact that this was number two in a trilogy and they made sure everyone was aware that number three would follow in six months as Reloaded left you hanging with no satisfaction.

Six months from now I may change my mind and find this whole franchise a miserable disappointment, but the fact that there are so many subtleties to be found in this one leaves me optimistic that the Wachowski's have really put some thought into this and that in the end it will be a very satisfying story. If it is done right, we should find that what you now feel was a commercial for Revolutions was really pertinent to the story. If it is done wrong we will be looking back at this film and recognize scenes as being present just to fill out a 2 hour running time.

Time will tell, and in the meantime trying to dissect it for hints, clues, and odd references is making this movie a better value for my entertainment dollar than movies that take up 2 hours of my time and leave me with nothing more than a 2 hour memory...

Looking for something even deeper? Try boiling down to the very basics of the sciences. One of two memorable ideas/theories I've read. The other is a very concise explanation that I have people read who like the movie and want everything tied up in a nice pkg. This particular post is from one ot the CHUD forums.

"It's interesting reading this thread. No one's really stating it, but I guess it's pretty obvious by now that the world that has been pulled over Neo's eyes is not the lie of the Matrix, but the lie of there being a Matrix at all. The idea that the Matrix was created to make us comfortable in our existences is a lie created to make Neo (who is not human at all) (in fact, there are no humans anywhere in these films)(nor are there any machines, for that matter, with the exception of the movie itself) comfortable in his 'mission' by giving him first an illusory self-awareness and then the illusion of something to fight for. However, his mission is not preordained by 'destiny' - it comes down from on high and if Neo were aware of the true nature of his mission (self-deletion), the unpredictability factor of the mathematical anomaly that he is would possibly cause him to turn his back on it.

Neo is not human. Rather, he is a virus that the system seeks to root out. However, he is a spontaneously generated virus that has arisen from mathematical instability. Thus, he is chaotic and unpredictable, difficult to track down, difficult to isolate and difficult to delete. He is, by virtue of his random and unpredictable nature, the spontaneous evolution of a program for something previously unknown in the mathematical universe - pure choice. In terms of lower mathamatics true 'choice', which is the same as 'unpredictability' is anathema and an inherent, or as the film states, a systemic instability that must at all costs be removed from a balanced equation to regain and retain stability. (the Architect is quite clear on this) At the end of the day, it's not that there is no spoon - it's that there is no Matrix; there are no human farms; there are no humans - there never were any humans; they are just a fiction invented by the 'program' (at this point it becomes pointless to refer to it by that anthropocentric name) so all-encompassing that a better name for it would be the universe.

Mathematics is the self-ordering consciousness of the universe and this film reflects exactly that. It's a semantic difference and the Wachowskis are drawing this comparison which is both profound and simplistic at the same time. This ultimately is the story of a lonely little spontaneously generated program called 'choice' who just happened to have a profoundly damaging effect on the balanced universe of the system in spite of its relative insignifigance and it's struggle to survive in spite of all efforts of the universal system to correct itself. Another name for this film could be 'The Secret Life of Mathematics.'

So are you saying that you think the story itself doesn't really exist, or that the story is simply a metaphor for the introduction of unstable choice into the ordered world of mathematics?

No - the story does exist - but it's being told to Neo and Neo alone and everything else, from the more obvious guiding influences of the Oracle and the Keymaker (who clearly states that it was his purpose to bring Neo to the cusp of his decision) to the less obvious figures of Morpheus and Trinity are all highly manipulative equations generated to bounce Neo in the direction of his ultimate self-deletion (or so the system 'hopes' (though it doesn't have true consciousness - only a powerfully sophisticated self-ordering 'instinct'.)) These characters represent 'causality' in the illusion that is being spun around Equation-Neo - causality that will hopefully (though nothing is certain because of his unique characteristic of chaos and unpredictability) bounce Neo into the drain-catch that the system 'hopes' to trap him in. The problem is that, due to the statistical enormity of the universe (or program) Neo will always evolve, no matter how many times he is destroyed - and thus must be caught and deleted over and over again - though the system, as the Architect states, is becoming very good at doing so by this point.

As, to the second part of your question - 'is the story is simply a metaphor for the introduction of unstable choice into the ordered world of mathematics?' Yes - but not the introduction of choice into the world of mathematics per se(well, yes, but more clearly ...) but into the universe, since the universe and everything in it - as the Wachowskis show over and over again - can be described entirely with numbers. Neo is the first self-contained equation that is functional yet serves no purpose. The Councilor questions Neo - comparing him to a machine (the water-purifier) and wondering aloud what Neo's purpose might be and hoping that they will 'find out' before it's 'too late'. The Matrix is a very prosaic retelling of the destruction of the universe due to a very human quality we call choice (the universe might call it 'chaos theory'). We as an audience are at once attracted to the idea of total order yet compelled to cheer for the underdog of choice even when it flies in the face of the ordered 'System' because it represents us in all our flaws and inconsistencies - even though we are aware deep down that we are ultimately a threat to natural order because we consciously choose to abrogate and circumvent it on a daily basis.

I'm not sure I understand your theory concerning Neo's nature (and that of the film's world); are you proposing that Neo is something akin to a walking Godel statement?

Basically, yes. Though, as humbly as I can submit, I don't think it's a proposition. The Architect says as much. He describes Neo as an annoying 'remainder' in an otherwise elegant equation. In other words, an inexplicable remainder. He is quite clear in stating that Neo is not human but a purely mathematcial entity and he says the same about the 'minds' in Zion - that they are 'programs' or equations made unstable by the presence of Neo in the system and thus placed in the holding bin or cache of Zion until resolution of the problem. This is why the Councillor remarks that he hopes Neo's purpose becomes evident 'before it's too late. He is aware of Neo's nature and that he himself has been at least temporarily disabled by Virus-Neo. This is why he remarks to Neo that it is good that he can't sleep as it demonstrates that he is 'still human' (why would he be anything else?). What he really means by this is that it indicates the Neo still believes the illusion of his humanity (which is why he bleeds inside the illusion of the Matrix)and the goal of guiding him back to the source through designed causality is still possible.

The Architect flatly states that the presence of Remainder-Neo leads to ultimate mathematical instability in the system - thus he has been guided back to the source for his 7th deletion. Apologies if this has already been covered, but in response to an earlier post about vampires, werewolves and ghosts - the fact of the matter is that they WERE explored in Reloaded. The Twins were plainly ghosts (ghoulish ones at that) and the fellow Persephone shot was a werewolf (or more pointedly, did the damage of a werewolf in the Matrix). She even alluded to a special bullet to kill this difficult to destroy program. The bullet was not literally a bullet more than anything is literal in the Matrix, but a special anti-viral patch designed just for him just like the slice of pie was written just for that occasion. Anyhow the plain point that Knowles missed is that the Oracle did not say or mean that there are literally vamipres and werewolves in the Matrix, but that these were the explanations generated by the System to explain these rogue anomalies running amuck in the Matrix to its denizens. But I repeat (though it seems most of you have chosen the blue pill)- none of the matrix is real and Neo is nothing more than a humble and heroic mathematical anomaly representing the revolutionary chaos of choice that has unbalanced an otherwise perfect system (from the system's point of view)

I saw the movie yet again this afternoon. Yep, that would be my 3rd time, and second within a span of about 20 hours. My God, I'm a geek.

Just to comment on a couple of the issues being kicked around here...

Tidy Package? I'm gonna side with those who feel it's asking a bit too much for me to have played a videogame in order to comprehend even a minor aspect of a movie. I own the original Matrix (VHS, not DVD (!)) and I've watched it many times. Not to sound too self-satisfied, but I think that alone should be all the mental ammunition I need to understand Reloaded. Now, *maybe* if all the non-action scenes in TMR were jam-packed with important info, I'd accept the idea that "There were some elements that we just couldn't incorporate into this screenplay, so please direct your attention [and money] to this storyline supplement." But even though I enjoyed my third viewing more than my second (which was, in turn, more fun than my first), I still noticed Dead Spots in the flick, particularly early on. Of course, it's another issue entirely when things I still feel need an explanation will be covered in Revolutions.

Depth (Or Lack Thereof): My favorite adjective in the whole wide world is "pretentious," and a friend of mine who was well aware of that fact (as anyone who's spent more than 3 minutes conversing with me would be) was astonished that I did not use it to describe the original Matrix. Some people, evidently, feel that the series engages in "name-dropping" and "surface-scratching".......and maybe I even agree. But let's assume for the sake of argument that it is true that the entire sci-fi premise of the films exists merely to explain away all the badass special effects: I wanna make a movie where the hero can fly, stop bullets, and bust out mad kung-fu skills. How can I do this? Answer: He's inside a computer program, and once he figures that out, he becomes god(like)! Since my intention in joining DVDTalk was never to promote myself as a Film Snob, I'm not ashamed to say that even IF the story is designed to serve the special effects (as opposed to the reverse), I don't think that's such a bad thing.

then why did i have to pay full price?

i hope chopping a film down the middle and padding each 1/2 out with needless scenes THAT DON"T ADVANCE THE STORY and then releasing each 1/2 as a seperate feature doesn't become the trend.

also, anyone who thinks that Revolutions will 'resolve' most of the questions raised in Reloaded is deluding themselves, i think.

I don't understand the people who complain about "oooh why do I have to pay 2 full movies tickets to see 1 movie?". Come on, you know that's BS. It's a freakin trilogy for godsakes. I bet you said the same thing about the Star Wars trilogy or LotR trilogies. Please STFU. Nobody's forcing you to see it.