BBEANLPHIE

I saw TMR the first day and sad to I was underwhelmed and annoyed on how confusing and choppy the story was. After reading several threads and getting a better understanding on the Christian and Buddhist ideas in the movie I started thinking on how deep of a story the directors had in store. I for one will be seeing it again in 2-3 weeks when the mobs die down. This movie's got me thinking on different levels. Heres A link to A site explaining the religious ideas and deeper concepts of TMR. PLEASE DO NOT CLICK UNLESS YOU HAVE SEEN TMR!

http://www.corporatemofo.com/stories/051803matrix.htm

Daytrip

a better movie that the first one for sure. because of all the ties it has, all the different characters linked to religion or historical religious facts. less action than the first(or at least no step up in scale other than the smiths fight) i liked it a lot more, makes you think a little, the first one was predictable

Crack 6K

Upon first viewing I came out of the theater amazed at the effects and deeply thoughtful about the storyline, yet confused at the same time, while also slightly disappointed. Upon a second viewing and discussions with many people around the internet, my appreciation and respect for the film and script grows daily.... I'm more than willing to pay $9 to see it over and over again, as apparently this is one of those films that get better with each viewing...

Daytrip

if you research a little and dive into the Merovingian Order, the significance of some of the key points(the kiss among others) the brothers did something not often done......they spread out a story on several different levels and media. you have to follow the spiritual tie-ins as well as the computer/technology tie-ins to fully understand what's going on. but once you do all of a sudden it becomes more a work of genious than just a special effects movie

inVectiVe

I saw it for the first time on its Wednesday "opening," and again last night. I'll see it at least one more time in the theater, and there may even be a 4th viewing in my future at some point.

It seems I do this with almost every movie I see lately, but I enjoyed The Matrix Reloaded more the second time. Which is not to say that all the flaws I perceived the first time I watched it disappeared, mind you. These are pretty modest by "spoilers" standards, but some of the things I didn't like about TMR were
I guess the main difference in my second viewing is that I picked out more ideas that made me realize just how much is riding on The Matrix Revolutions. One of the things I really need clarification on is
Bottom line: Second time I watched the movie, I still found it flawed, but I am now forced to re-classify some of the issues I considered "weaknesses," because I need to see how the final chapter in the trilogy ties everything up.

Oh yeah, and I've decided that the Neo / 732 Agent Smith fight scene is one of my favorite action scenes ever.

Rypro 525

My dad said he was a bit dissopointed because "it was too much like star wars" like with the deep somewhat confusing story.

Daytrip

ckolchak

1/2 a story with tie-in products to provide expositional information.
hmmmm.
i will agree its definitely a work of marketing genius.

inVectiVe

[Re: Daytrip's last post.]

Interesting! Part of what "confuses" me is that, while I've seen Reloaded twice, I've seen the original Matrix countless times, so I'm having a hard time "letting go" of certain concepts that seem to have undergone revision. Another example would be
Man, just discussing this stuff makes me wanna see Reloaded again (flaws and all), and makes me anticipate Revolutions even more!

Pants

The problem I have with this "philosophy" is that it's so half baked. There is some real heavy duty post-modern theory out there in the world. The Matrix movies scratch the surface of this theory with their finger nail and then act like that's enough to be considered "deep" and "heavy".

When it all comes out of the actors mouths it just sounds like what I call "bong talk". Pseudo-intellectual bulls*** that people go on about after too much pot. "We fight the machine, but we need the machine....whoa far out"

Pardom me if I don't crown the Wachowski's as the greatest intellectual film makers of our time. If you want religious metaphysics try Tarkovsky's Stalker

Yes the Matrix has "levels" of meaning, comprehension, and enjoyment. They just aren't as "deep" as you might pretend. There's nothing in the film that can't be caught and understood on the first viewing. Unless the "deepest" film you saw before this was Analyze This.

Jackskeleton

Hey pants. How about we just say this film is like a "Dummies guide to deep philosophy"

Daytrip

i really don't care how deep it actually is, it's kept my attention much longer than most movies so it in the very least has been worth the money to see

pilot101

A frustrating thing about enjoying the first film is that you anticipate what the rest of the story will be like with your own ideas. There are already posts about what Revolutions will be about. I saw the film a second time and enjoyed it seamlessly, after I thought it blowed the first time. The questions I had the second time I can live with for six months.

But here are some interesting scenes, and dialogue that I want to disscuss. I think they are relevant but I don't hear much about it (if at all).

1. First scene Neo takes off flying after fighting three "upgraded" agents, and goes to visit an old apartment with no one in it except an old velour couch in the dark. The buildings look like a Bronx project when he flies over them. Next scene the first meeting.
2.In Zion when he meets that old counsellor and they both can't sleep. The counsellor says "That's good you are still human".This becomes important later.
3.This one is interesting. Seraph, the oracle guardian is seen through the eyes of Neo in beautiful gold glowing code instead of green. They fight (Seraph is on the same level as Neo ) and he says "I had to make sure you are the one, the oracle has many enemies". "I guard that which is most important". What enemies? besides the Merovingian.
4.The (jesus look alike) man being taken away in handcuffs from the dinner table at the Merovingians restaurant.
5.The slow application of lipstick by persiphone before Kissing Neo.
6.This is important to point number 2. The architect's first observation when he walks through the door is just like the counsellor."Hmmnn...You are still Human".

Please make observations.
If you are going to watch the movie again, I suggest you relax and question every scene without just "anticipating" oracle scene or architect scene because you missed something they said.

PixyJunket

Pants hits the nail on his post. TMR is what I like to call "Geek Bait" as it sets everything up for easy over-analization (is that even a word). I find it espically humorus that people think that because the names they choose have religious or mythological background that the movie is "deep" or "intellegent". I'm sorry but you have to do a little more than giving characters gimmicky names to be an intellegent movie. The movie has some glaring flaws that inVectiVe pointed out rather well but I'd like to elaborate. The rave scene/sex scene/orgasm cake. Those 3 things are simply there to pander to the type of crowd that The Real Cancun was made for. Words cannot express how stupid the rave itself is, and the sexuality of the movie is VERY out of place. Anybody with any film viewing credibility will be able to see what I'm getting at. Next gripe is something I don't think has been mentioned yet. Morpheus' relationship with Niobe. Did the W Brothers not review thier first movie while writing this? Let's look a Morpheus in the first movie. He is a very dedicated man who belives he has one purpose, and that purpose is to find The One. His family is his crew, and furthering his purpose is more important to him than his own life. Now do you really think a man like that would have the time/tolerance for a relationship? Let alone to let anything resembling a triangle to go on for more than 2 seconds? What little they mentioned of his past relation with Niobe and what they showed of him interacting with her, to me, really damaged his character. Now about Niobe and the other new characters.. what was the point?! Nobody was introduced, they were simply shown and then gone after a few minutes. Link was the only character that seemed to be given a purpose in the movie, and he was only a replacement for Tank. Fights seemed to happen for the sole purpose of having a fight. A prime example of this is Seraph. "I have come to see The Oracle." "But first, we must fight!" *cue mortal kombat theme* The multiple Agent Smith scene was great, until some point where it started to look a little too cartoony, and then, for whatever reason (I guess he was bored) Neo flies away. What the hell was the point?! Why didn't he fly away to begin with? Smith was no threat to him, there was no reason for him to stay and fight other than to say "I am The One and I am nobodies BEEETCH!".. The only real substance to the movie seemed to be from the point where they set off to find the Key Maker, and honestly, you could probably ignore that and say the only part of the movie that actually moved the trilogy along any was when he met the Architech (sp?). That part pissed me off simply because of the way it was presented. The entire speach was enigmatic for the sake of being enigmatic (or to be over analyzed by the internet crowd). *deep breath* Okay.. that's all I can think of negative at the moment.

The movie does bring a few good points to think about that do not fall into the "Wow, his name means this and this so this is that. Lemme hit that J again man." The fact that the Matrix is in it's 6th version or phase, and that each one had it's own The One who's purpose was to reboot. What role does Agent Smith play in this game, could it have been HIM that stopped the sentinals? It's obvious at this point that the only thing he wants is to do the one thing he couldn't do, destroy Neo.

Blah, okay I'm really tired and may post more later.. but I will close with saying that I find it hard to appreciate a mediocre film because of naming schemes and possibilities. These are things meant to enhance a great movie, not act as a crutch for a bad one. While TMR is far from a bad movie, it's also far from a great one. Where The Matrix is a great movie, The Matrix Reloaded is simply part of a trilogy, where most of it's enjoyment is stemed from what came before and what we want to see beyond.

Daytrip

research the merovingian religion..........you'll find almost the enitre plot ties into these religious beliefs, that's a little more than giving characters cheesy names...........it took a lot of intelect to tie it all together

PixyJunket

That may be, but having to do outside research to enjoy a movie is not a smart move. Again, this should enhance the viewing experience, not crutch it.

Daytrip

that is a matter of opinion, i think it makes it a much more enjoyable experience but in today's "you show me i'm not going to put any thought into it" world i see your point

Pants

The oposite of what pixyboi is suggesting is not "show me or i'm not going to put any thought into it", but simply "have everything that can be gleened from a film IN THE FILM." Roeg's The Man Who Fell To Earth, Tarkovsky's Stalker and Solaris, and Kubrick's 2001 are all philosophic sci-fi. Their themes and issues are enigmatic and can be analyzed untill the cows come home. But everything you need to know about them is RIGHT THERE ON THE SCREEN.

TMR on the other hand is very shallow, but name drops extra-cinematic things that can be looked up and poored over. The fact that one could go study the complex worlds of Greek Mythology to understand where Morphius and Prosephene get their names from might be fun (just as considering Dave Bowman's name might be a lot of fun for 2001 fans), but the film itself should contain everything one needs in order to grasp the film's complete subject. If one considers ONLY what is there on celuloid, the Matrix Reloaded represents nothing and has very little to say.

The Matrix is shallow on such an epic scale that the shallowness begins to look like depth.

vivarey

I agree- a film should always stand alone. The Sphere was a book by Michael Crichton, and also a horrible movie starring Dustin Hoffman and Sharon Stone. If you read the book, the movie might seem better than it actually was because you have more information about the story, characters, etc. But does that really make it a better movie?

Regardless of this argument, one thing is for sure: Understanding a movie plot should not have ANYTHING to do with playing a video game. Embedding important scenes in "Enter the Matrix" was a huge mistake, IMO. I suppose the Bros. can get back a little respect by adding them onto the DVD... but still... a video game?!

Mopower

People that don't "get it" might want to try Daddy Daycare. I don't think you will have to think to much for that one.

Daytrip

i agree to an extent, it's probably a bad idea to embed a game into the movie, but who are we to say what they do with their creative talent........they made money

PixyJunket

*high fives pants and vivarey*

PixyJunket

Who are we to say? Well we are the people giving them our money. I think it's a great idea to try to merge different mediums into thier story but when it comes down to watering down the movie itself the idea should've been retooled. They are not going to be judged on how good thier video game is or how good thier little cartoons are, but how good thier movie is.

vivarey

Thanks, pixyboi!

I think the Bros have the fanboy mentality themselves, and because of that, they want to cater to those of a similar mindset.

But I agree with pixyboi - it makes more sense to cater to the masses... especially with something as big as this franchise. And trust me, the masses are definitely not doing research on ancient religions or playing Enter the Matrix.

jim_cook87

Are you trying to argue that one cannot understand the Matrix without understanding the additional layers? And are you further making that statement without allowing the possibility that your questions might be answered in Revolutions? Are you of the opinion that without looking into the names and references you can't see that this is more than just a action story about a guy trapped in a virtual reality? You can't see the underlying themes of religion, philosophy and free will?

Are there a lot of unanswered questions? Yes. But this is "TO BE CONTINUED" in 6 months, so much will likely be wrapped up on screen for those that don't want to think about it. But for those that do want to think, or who do have a rounded background in history, philosophy and religion there is so much more there than meets the eye.

There are many levels to this and all great movies. Some levels are fully resolved on screen, some are up to the viewer to recognize and interpret. And to judge whether the Matrix matches up to other thinking movies at this point is impossible, as you've only watched 1/2 of this part of the movie. The first movie was intended to be able to stand-alone, Reloaded was not.

The discussion that has been going on in this forum has been trying to predict what might occur in the final chapter, based on the clues and signposts strewn throughout 1 and 2. While it does mean we are trying to find the meaning in some scenes it doesn't mean this movie has failed anymore than you might think "Citizen Kane" had failed if you walked out half way through and said "It was stupid, they never told me what Rosebud was..."