Grrrrr, are you guys even paying attention? HE IS INFATUATED WITH HER IN THE BEGINNING. It just never goes anywhere. It's dropped after that one scene. The very first scene Luke has after he meets her, then IT IS DROPPED. They never come close to nookie.

You realize the whole argument hinges on one scene versus 2 whole movies?

Yeah, but most people here believe that Lucas intended to have a love triangle, and are only basing it on the one movie, which is to further argue the point of this thread that Lucas has for the most part been making up Star Wars as he goes along.

The message that she tried to send to Obi-Wan was kind of low res...maybe he thought she was wearing headphones and was turned off when he met her and realized it was really her hair...

You might be right
I didn't even realize what a babe she was until she got a new hairstyle. Or was it the bikini?

Anyway, this has been a fun thread. I hope I've given everyone something to think about and challenged the assumptions we've made about about these films. In any case, I feel I've proven mine as far as humanly possible. There's nothing more I can add. We are either going to believe what's actually in the films or what we've built up in our heads over the years. If you don't believe me, all I can say is watch the films again.

~Thanks for the discussion.

You haven't changed my assumptions.

How the hell is it dropped? I mean for ESB and ROTJ, Luke and Leia are barely in the same scenes. So in all the scenes together, there is some type of romantic tension.

A New Hope:
1.) Luke sees message thinks she is beautiful
2.) Shoots down Han when Han asks about her

ESB
1.) Gets the kiss and rolls his eyes in satisfaction

ROTJ
1.) Han thinks (like the rest of us) that Luke and Leia are an item. EVEN IN THEIR OWN UNIVERSE, Han acknowledges there is some tension. Why can't you?

Secondly, caligula, you point to only a few scenes - well most of Star Wars is action, not love-triangle. all the scenes that deal with Luke-Leia-Han relationship have an undertone of tension.

I agree with you caligula.

You get no love here, regardless of who does in the Star Wars Universe....

Luke is not interested in Leia.

Even though, not to be, he MUST be gay.

Oh, wait...he is.

caligula-

Your big long post brings up an interesting issue in the trilogy. In Luke's hero's journey he never acheives heterosexual coupling. If you listen to Joseph Campbel or just read a lot and watch a lot of movies you realize that typically a hero such as Luke goes on a journey of self discovery where at the end he brings peace to his universe and achieves a satisfying sexual relationship with a woman. Star Wars (or A New Hope) if watched alone and outside of the other films can be construed as Luke and Leia's "first date". They "meet cute" have their ups and downs and then the film ends with a cliffhanger of sorts, in reguard to who will get the girl.

You are right Caligula, our expectations of what stories usually do have us expecting that the hero (Luke) will also get the girl. But in fact, as the saga continues we find that Luke, on his path to fullfill his destiny and bring peace to his land, goes on a sexless tangent. You point up something very interesting when you note just how little interaction w/ women Luke has. At the end of it all, in Return of the Jedi, Luke achieves his destiny and saves the realm, but is not additionally rewarded with sexual love (which is what we'd expect).

Perhaps this "sexless victory" is where Lucas was inspired to make the Jedi Knight's monk-like and chaste in the prequals. It is odd that Luke defies our expectations of acheiving love.



Oh and DarkestPhoenix- that quote is from Field of Dreams

There's kind of the point. They are barely even in the movies together so it's not a technicality that they don't have any interaction. They actually have no interaction! For there to be some sort of romantic tension, I'd think they'd have to actually express it somehow. We are obviously not privy to what goes on between scenes, but the way Leia acts towards him is a pretty good indicator. Which is to say she doesn't. Luke blows up the Death Star and the only thing she can say is "Thanks, Han. You saved the day. (actually, 'I knew there was more to you than money')"
Okay, out of the quote so I can go back to regular color. There is absolutely no moment in ROTJ that points to a love triangle. Luke's attention is focused on Vader/daddy. Han and Leia are an acknowledged couple from the moment she rescues him from the carbonation freeze ("Who is it?" "Someone who loves you.") So, where does Han get the idea to step aside for Luke? He catches Luke and Leia having the only conversation they have in the entire trilogy. What are they talking about? Well, that Vader is long lost dad, and that they are sibs. No tension there. Han's had a free ride as far as Leia is concerned so his misunderstanding gives a little resonance and consumation when she reveals Luke is her brother and Leia can be his, free and clear. Why did Lucas put it in there if he didn't intend a love triangle? I'd like to think it comes out of nowhere, because it would make my argument so much easier but I think it's a little more complcated. Lucas, when he wrote it, might have originally intended there to be some sort of competition for Leia's affections. He introduces it in Star Wars and because of the structure of the story, neither character really gets her. It's left for the sequel. Once we get to the sequel, Lucas making it up as he goes along, got inspired by Pants' very apt Cambellian (to coin a word) "Hero's Journey". (Pants, you nailed it, by the way. You got my point and expressed it from the angle I was missing)Luke has his own destiny away from Leia. Lucas can then concentrate on Han and Leia's romance. It's even on the poster! When we get to ROTJ, Han offers to step aside. Again, why? Well, storywise, it's just to give their union an added little punch. It's the equivilent of "...Forsaking all others, with this ring, I thee wed." The only rival suitor is officially dispatched. Not that there was any rivalry, but they have to wrap up the movie on a high note. When he came up with Star Wars (saga), he might have initially intended there to have been some rivalry, but when it comes right down to it, he never put it in. ESB was really his only chance to put it in, but he had Luke off becoming a Jedi. Even though it was introduced in SW, considering it went nowhere, I'd call Luke's crush on her in that film vestigial. It might have once had a purpose, but ultimately it doesn't anymore. It's just there to marvel at. I hadn't planned on bringing in the prequel trilogy, but Lucas seems to have recognized this and has Anakin following a different path. He GETS the girl. He leaves the "Hero's Journey" and gets him some. And we all know the problems that causes. Luke gets tempted early, but doesn't succumb and stays pure.

Star Wars is meant for the child in all of us. Most of us (males, of course), as children, identify with Luke. He is [u]us[/i] onscreen and Han is our big brother. He's got the cool car and he's got the moves. We look up to him. When we meet a giiiirl for the first time... gosh, she's pretty. Maybe she'd like to go get an ice cream and...wait a minute...big brother Han is moving in on her! How can I compete? He has the cool souped-up car, he has the experience...gosh he's cool. Even though I think that girl is cute, I have no chance with her with big brother Han around, so I guess I'd better finish growing up.

Is there a love triangle in that situation? Little brother Luke (us) has a crush on the girl, but she's with big brother Han. She doesn't even pay attention to little brother Luke, unless he scrapes his knee or something, and awww, isn't your little brother such a sweetie? Tell me again how you made the Kessel run in less than how many parsecs?.

Imagining there is a chance for Luke is like imagining that little boy has a chance with his big brother's date. He doesn't. Instead, he goes off to grow up (read: become a Jedi, like his dad). I think we as viewers just never let go of that by proxy fantasy of getting the girl before we are ready. Remember, again, Star Wars is supposed to take you back to your childhood, not the way you are now.

I think we can all agree that Luke has an initial crush on Leia. He just never acts on it and goes off on his "hero's journey". That journey begins with his destruction of the Death Star and continues through his Jedi training and culminates in his killing/saving his father. Now, he is a Jedi (read: MAN).

Pants, that really never crossed my mind. It is interesting that Luke never found "Forbidden Love" where as Anakin did. Anakin was turned and Luke was not.

If Lucas intended this, what is he trying to say?

I'm sorry but you are wrong.

When Luke rescues Leia from her cell in A new hope, he enters, and looks at her. Then you can definitely see that he has a hard-on through his stormtrooper plastic trousers. Anyway, I can see it on my tv recording from the original broadcast where they took off the stupid black lines at the top and the bottom of the screen.

Caligula-

For you to just dismiss, 1/3 of the trilogy and parts of the second (including the kiss - you can make up all you want, its in the movie and Luke expresses satisfaction or at least goading - either of which shows some sort of weird love triangle) is completly absurd.

I know that Lucas was making this stuff as he goes, or at least condensed plot lines (from 6 to 9 movies) but to suggest that the love triangle bit wasn't thrown in there at all is naive. You seem to be taking a lot from your personal life - (Han as a brother) and ignoring plenty of evidence in the movies.

Yeah, and so did C-3PO

http://www.pearl-jam.com/starwars/sw3po100.jpg (Warning: Mature)

Edited to link pic rather than post it.

I have to agree (I'm not touching the personal life comment at all).

Clearly Han and Luke are after Leia. But Leia makes up her mind in Empire (unless she was just saying "I love you" because Solo was supposed to die originally).

To say that the kisses Luke receives from her aren't lustful is a bit ridiculous. The first one (in ANH) was intended for Luke. The one in Empire is clearly just to piss off Han (Leia uses Luke as a tool to get back at Han).

And as previously mentioned, Han thinks she's in love with Luke at the end of Jedi. She tells him yeah cuz he's her brother, which gives Leia to Han by default, thus screwing up a perfectly nice love triangle.

At no time has he said that. Read his post again. He says pretty clearly that it was changed along the way (Star Wars had it, it disolved in Empire, and was gone in Jedi), but that the beauty of Lucas' script was that he wrote in such a way that he didn't paint himself into a corner. He was able to "escape"

As mentioned before, Han asks her "you love him don't you?" because he has seen Luke and Leia having their "moment" in the Ewok village. Remeber, that pissed him off?

Havn't heard anyone say that about Mr.Lucas in a long long time ....


Joking aside, I think this is an interesting topic and that it would be a good idea for George Lucas, when he finally gets around to the OT dvds, to record a commentary on the progression of each film from script to film and explain what was changed and what was not.

Then again, we will probably get one commentary track dedicated to the visual effects of these films and how they are too outdated for the "modern age".

Once again Pants understands my point. I'm not going to say he agrees with me (that's for him to say), but he understands my point. After further consideration of Pants' great post about the Campbell influence and how Luke's hero's journey is sexless, I'd even hypothesize that the introduction of a love triangle in SW wasn't really even intended as that but was wedged in to show that Luke isn't homosexual. He is presented with a beautiful princess, of course he has the hots for her. Lucas has other ideas for Luke, though. He goes on a hero's quest to fulful his destiny to become a Jedi, redeem his father and ultimately become a man. The one part of becoming a man that he doesn't get the opportunity to accomplish is coupling with a woman. I may be mistaken, but other than Leia and Aunt Beru, do we even see a woman in Star Wars or Empire Strikes Back? Even in the background? I think that Twi'lek dancer chick at Jabba's is the first female we even see in the series.

Now that we can take away that one scene of Luke expressing interest in Leia, where else does he?

By the way, I freeze framed Leia's kiss of Luke on the Death Star and she clearly kisses his cheek.

oh ok i'all agree on that

Actually, that's kind of how I feel . I realize my posts have been long (counted them and I'm up to 5400+ words and seven full pages in MS Word) but don't believe me. Re-watch the films with what I've said in mind and tell me if you don't see my point. Especially watch Luke after the infamous cockblocking scene and watch Leia in all her scenes. She never shows interest in Luke.

I dunno about you, but I love Star Wars and it's always cool to have a new reason to watch them, especially if its about something I never noticed before.

For my next argument, I shall present that C3P0 and R2-D2 aren't really a buddy team at all but merely acquaintances that run into each other occasionally (juuuust kidding).

They do spend quite a bit of time seperated

You archive your own posts?? or just for this thread?

SPY

Just out of curiosity for this thread, I cut and pasted them into MSWord to use its word count feature.

I always thought the love triangle was supposed to be Luke, Han and his Wookiee

Jez