I liked American Beauty and...I liked this movie! You were right on Faggis!

Oh, and wtf is a 5 hit?

Well, FHaggis, I can honestly tell you I want to sit through it again. In fact....I just did earlier tonight.

Haha, yeah, that's new. You're taking things personally and so mature as well, eh? Were these pathetic movies something you think you could actually strive for? Did Better Luck Tomorrow raise the bar for you? Why don't you go direct an exciting porno with your gay acting buddies and shut the phuck up?

Hmmm, gee... what do you think "5hit" means?

My bad, guy - I spell your name wrong and you flip on me...

And I liked your 'mature' response...lol

Direct a better movie...then talk. Out.

Well, I've received a number of puerile responses in the past, that's all that I could safely assume; you must stoop to slander most of the time.

Direct a better movie? Sure, but what's the point of topping something that's already subpar? There's no need atm seeing how there've been countless movies released that've been better than this sad excuse for a movie-sandwich (read "BLT"). *wan smirk*

Nonethless, it bothers the hell out of me that it's trying to cater to a particular ethnic group and yet, it's showing nothing that's distinctively "asian". Why people would find this movie "refreshing" and remotely "BRILLIANT" just shows how the American society is still grappling with anything that's NOT of white, black, or latino culture. Young asian american directors seem confused anyway about their own identity and this movie shows just that because--as I've said before, you can insert people of any ethnicity in this movie. If this is a social commentary about asians/asian americans, it's way off the mark, but if it's your average commentary about disaffected, amoral, confused teens in the US, I have no qualms about it whatsoever. What a profound disappointment that it's garnered such "high" marks on rottentomatoes et al. Ever checked out the ethnicity of the people writing those reviews?

I've changed the ranking, it's a 5 out of 10... nothing more, nothing less.

FHaggis-

Not only do I disagree w/ your bad attitude, but I also disagree w/ much of your assessment of the film. I do agree w/ you that it is frustrating when you state a thought out opinion on this board and it's met with, "You couldn't make it better" and all these other weak arguments and juvenile unintelligent banter. But just shrug it off and don't be an ass hole.

First, I agree that the film mostly sucks, but I disagree w/ your statement that the film could just as easily be about any ethnic group. The whole premise of the film is: Young Asian Americans are SO RUTHLESS when it comes to grades and success. What would happen if they took that ruthless industriousness and applied it toward crime? The excesses in the film are obviously hyperbole. The kids in the film would not engage in most of this extreme behavior. But the extreme behavior is being used to illustrate the excess that these ruthless characters probably would go to if they were to apply the same ruthlessness to crime as they do to studying.

As to your statement that the film could just as easily be about any ethnic group, I don’t know any other ethnic group that has that ruthlessness (maybe only whites). Sorry to stereotype, but you couldn’t make a movie about ruthlessly motivated young people that stars blacks or Mexicans. In the black and Mexican community you have different socializing factors. The pressure to succeed in an Asian family is something unique to it. (I’m speaking of course in a broadly general sense).

Ben's ruthless refusal of being an affirmative action icon could hardly be replicated if the character were white, and the political conservatism that that move represents would hardly be common in the black community.

I hate to get into ethnic and political stereotypes so I hope I havn't stepped on any toes. Feel free to disagree w/ me.

FHaggis - You are completely entitled to your opinion but you need to watch the level of abrasiveness with which you are expressing yourslef. You're posts are bordering on personal attacks and you've made an attempt to circumvent the censor to post swearing on the forum.

Continue on this path and you'll be getting a nice big vacation from the forum

Alright, I apologize for what took place, but I expected much more from forums such as this since so many profess to be intelligent and open-minded. I didn't think speciousness and jejune retorts would be so rampant, but I will make an extreme effort to remove future ad homs (geared towards forum members) and concede to swear word censorship.


For starters... Ruthlessness applied to crime? Do you know many asians or any at all? Um, asian gangs do exist... ever been to *a* Chinatown? There've been asian gangsters in film as well. Is it surprising to find that even asians can be ruthless enough to commit very criminal deeds?

Now, ruthlessness in grades? Again, do you know many asians personally or have you known them at any level of school? Had these asians (in the film) been "ruthless" as you put it, they would have been engaging in subversive tactics against their own peers! They themselves would have been shown cheating on exams, but they weren't. In fact, they were the ones that established the crib sheets which THEY themselves distributed for nothing more than money; they were driven by the need for monetary gain. School work came to these characters quite easily, hence their apathy--just one of the reasons for their amoral stance on most things. This isn't the norm in reality because the stereotype for most asians is almost always about the "work ethic"; aren't asians (including Indians) "supposed" to work their asses off? Isn't that why they are able to fare better than whites, blacks, and latinos? While others are lacking, asians have an immense drive to strive, achieve, and excel? What about muscianship? Isn't every asian supposed to be a superb musician? These are a stereotypes for asians and with Daric and Ben--I won't even address that anomaly known as Virgil, school was nothing more than an insipid hurdle to something better. What these people had obviously wasn't anything remotely ambitious considering their blasé approach to it all. With the lack of challenging extracurriculars, why else were they turning to petty crimes? Boredom was garnered due to the fact that they had it easy and wanted a challenge. The *superficial* premise of this movie can be seen as amoral behavior in one sphere spilling over into another.** (**See below for real plot of the movie.) Sure, they wound up committing crimes, but they became bored even with that! But this type of behavior is not at all "stereotypical" of most disaffected asian youths; something those in the West do not grasp is the importance of family.

There was not an IOTA of family structure in this movie whatsoever!!! The WHITE *step*-parents that did appear were superfluous and nonsensical. Most in this society may hold in high regard rugged individualism and cherish their individual rights, but the majority of asians/asian americans interact heavily with family and the bond is damn tight. Grandparents are also important as hell and due respect for relative/ancestors is ALWAYS prominent. These asians in the film had no basic morality imbued in them--which is not at all the norm. With family there as guidance and to provide (sometimes overly rigid) structure, very few asians will stray as far as these pathetic a-holes in the movie. Almost every asian lives under the thumb of his/her parents until they financially stable enough to provide for themselves; even when they are on their own, they are still close to their families.

This is where I have a problem with Justin Lin. Of course, if you throw in anything from the minority (read: anything that's NOT white), you'll need to bring up affirmative action. That was perhaps the only stereotypical issue that vaguely registered as "asian only"; the fact is that it was such a GENERAL stereotype that it doesn't really affect the asian populace in particular. If that's supposed to address a purely *asian* issue, then he has no idea what the culture is even remotely about. As I said before, a good amount of later generation, "asian americans" seem confused about their own identity because they've either become assimilated into the bland, indistinctive, "American" culture, or they are conflicted due to now fading familial/cultural roots. Stable individuals maintain traditions and values with which they can identify closely... and largely, there was not much--even stereotypically speaking, that any stable-minded OR conflicted asian could truly identify with. **Considering what I've just said, here's the actual premise of this movie: academics is too easy for these "asian" punks tired of fitting in the moldand completely deprived of proper/stereotypical, parental guidance, so they turn to crime for fun and intrigue. When you don't "fit" in any particular mold, you tend not to have those characteristics, therefore, I say this movie is near devoid of ethnicity despite the obviously asian actors. Since you're really nitpicking, I'll admit that you can only really put whites in place of the asians in this movie, but the point I'm trying to drive home is that it's showing nothing that's DISTINCTIVELY "asian".

The fact that many critics are lauding this movie is incredibly disheartening. It's rare that asian movies from the states are put out there, but this was just embarrassing for anyone familiar with or of the asian culture. If you're going to make a crap movie-if you make it KNOWING that it's not going to garner any awards, then don't pass it off as something better than it truly is. If you want to portray anyone, anything, anywhere, try to be as accurate as possible at the very least.

Addendum:
Commentary on Murphy's Law: "If you explain so clearly that nobody can misunderstand, they will."

You say that the movie was embarassing for anyone familiar with the Asian culture, but how do you know that the Asian culture that you're familiar with is the same Asian culture that Justin Lin is familiar with?

I'm white, and I know that my 'caucasian culture' probably is a whole lot different from that of someone who might live in the south, or heck, even right next door.

I think you're problem is that Better Luck Tomorrow might not have been accurate with YOUR point of view (or if you're Asian, your culture), so you put it down. Not all Asian's and their lives are the same I'm guessing.

Maybe you should see the movie again and open your mind a little.

FHaggis,

Is it the director's fault that most of the critics are loving this movie? It's not like they got paid for their positive reviews by the director. As I said on my previous post, this movie was a disapointment. I read an article stating that the directors said "they were just normal American kids", not Asian kids. Which doesn't make sense to me, cus he still stereotypes them as being smart. Just wondering, why are you so upset about this movie, cus it portrayed the asian in a negative way?

The things you--and the majority of the people on this thread--deign to post are quite astonishing. There are a number of asian cultures and I'm more than familiar with the prominent ones. But as you have stated yourself, you're "white". Just what is your "caucasian culture"? Apparently, you're confused as to what you are specifically; don't have anything other than generic middle america to identify with? Well hey, that explains a lot.

No. Please try again.

Fhaggis, what exactly is your problem? It seems like people just can't like this film without raising your ire. Some people just happened to like the film and don't have the same problems with it that you do. Can't you just accept that and stop knocking down everybody else's comments about the film because they don't match up with what you felt? And for the record FHaggis, you were the one to start with the "juvenile" postings and take this conversation off the civilized track.

Great, I awake to see this on the board...

Look, I don't think it would be fair to have this entire thread shut down due to the fact that one "ostensible" misspelling of my handle--something that can easily be construed by ANYone as slander (read above "Faggis")--resulted in brief disparagement. I've apologized for that caustic outburst and have tried to resume civilized and highly analytical discussion of this film.

If my last post has offended you in any way, then let me direct you to the fact that there's been nothing but condescending quips emanating from Tarantino since the miscommunication. I've already stated to the founder of this forum/website (Geoffrey Kleinman) that I'll no longer personally attack any forum member. If what I've stated in this last post looks to you like I've lied, let me assure you that I indeed have NOT.

You've just flung some unfounded accusations my way, so I must point out your flaws in my own defense:

First of all, what I AM doing is pointing out the inherent FLAWS in Tarantino's skewed logic and ineffectual attempts to belittle my entire stance on this movie and myself as an individual.

Secondly, matrixrok9 appears NOT to have even read my posts (above); therefore the questions in his post are obviously that of someone who has no idea what I am talking about.

So, I ask now that YOU please refrain from "juvenile" fingerpointing and let the thread continue as it would without interruption. This is a place of discussion, correct? If you want everyone to concur on a large scale, that will never happen. I don't believe in jumping on the bandwagon when 1) it's not going anywhere, 2) veering in the wrong direction, and 3) the driver is blind to obstacles in the road or is heading towards a cliff. I believe in thinking for myself. Do you? Just because the majority of filmlovers here and many a professional critic refuse or simply cannot see why they are in the wrong doesn't mean that I can't voice antithetical views. If you don't like my views, then please, just ignore me.

You ask me what my problem is? I'm genuinely wondering why so many individuals here at dvdtalk can't seem to reciprocate with an equally, well thought out response that shows a modicum of intelligence and attention paid to previous posts.

I'm capable of doing that, but w/ you I don't even know where to start. Your posts make ZERO sense to me. You just go on and on and I can't understand any of your points. It seems you feel the director missrepresents the kids, but I'll be damned if I understand why. They're his characters, you can take them or leave them. I "leave them" becasue I think the film is sub-par all the way around.

You seem to want to address the affirmative action issues, but I just don't get it. Whatever, this thread used to be cool.

You're capable of reciprocating... sure. Yet the explanations "go on and on" that you're lost? The very same could be said about your own posts. What do you want... a new line for every relevant idea? I back up my points, I address your issues, and the reason for such misconstrual could be that you and just about everyone else seem to enjoy skipping to the last line of every post before replying. Zero sense... right, and there is so much talk about the lack of ricers. Go figure.

Uh, no. He was a moronic s***eater that *looked down* at the gang of four and sought to use them for his own inane purposes. He disrespected Ben, imposed on Ben, was an all around a**hole, and paid the group money to treat them like high class whores. That part about the loathing of his own lifestyle was revealed closer to the end of the movie. He was killed because he misused the wrong people.

I do address the affirmative action issue:
Considering this line of thinking, how much did you think there would be?

Right...back in the day when you garnered a lot of attention with your own posts that were at times equally confusing only because they weren't entirely sensical. Most people tend to agree with anything if they don't know what's going on.

What is this a school yard? Eat me man! You have a bad attitude and I have no interest in continuing this discussion with you.

Goodbye.

Fhaggis,

Why so aggressive and defensive? Just calm down.

+1

To all the people who said that this movie is an unrealistic portrayal of reality, i'll tell you this much: it's based on a true story. It happened here, in Orange County, CA, at a high school called Sunny Hills in a nice city called Fullerton. Many details of the movie were altered, of course, but some things remained the same. For one, when Steve is murdered at the end, the method by which he was killed actually happened. All 4 teenagers went to jail; the real-life Ben, the main character, was the lookout and getaway driver (as he is in the movie), but was sentenced to jail time. He later died in jail as a result of complications from AIDS.

Being Korean this sent shockwaves through the community. And almost every Korean or asian person i've talked into seeing the movie loved it because it was, indeed, an accurate portrayal of Asian-American life in nice, conservative, Orange County.

But you can think what you want.

Dude, you are getting upset because somebody misspelled your name? I think you are reading too much into the misspelling. Seems like more a simple mistake to me than an attempt to disparage you.

As for the rest of your comments, I am not sure what you are saying. I didn't say you had to agree with everybody on this movie, just simply suggesting that maybe you should take a step back and realize that not everybody takes your opinion on this film as scripture. Some people liked it, some people found it realistic, others hated it and despised certain aspects of it, much like any other movie.

You didn't like it and have serious problems with various aspects of the movie. Fine. I have absolutely no problem with that at all. I do have a problem with the way you are treating any one who seems to disagree with you or ask a question about what you are saying.

I thought the movie was great. Was it realistic? I don't know. I try not to overanalyze most films. I just know what I like and I enjoyed this one immensely. It made me laugh and i was never bored during it's entire run. Sometimes that's all I ask for in a movie.

Superboy is correct, Better Luck Tomorrow is loosely based (and I use the term "loosely based" loosely) on the real life "Honor Roll" murder of Stuart Tay in 1993 involving four students from Sunny Hills High school. You can read more about it here and an exerpt from a Time magazine article here

I went to go see this film and was actually impressed with it. It was a better movie than I thought it was going to be and the fact that there was a factual backstory made it make more sense to me. I'll be recommending this to all my friends.

-BT

What the heck? Am I reading this right? Yes, I'm 'WHITE'. So because I said I'm white, I'm confused as to what I am specifically? haha. Sorry, I don't get you FHaggis.

I'm not confused as to what my culture is. My culture is what it is, and I'm not going to spill out my life story here, because that'd be pointless. I'm not confused as to what I am. I identify with what I was brought up with...not just 'middle america'. Pull out your thesaurus again and post a 'plethora' of other things that don't make a lick of sense. Oh, don't forget to try and assassinate my upbringing/culture/race again!

I liked the movie.

That Time Magazine article was incredible. The final scenes were exactly like that magazine article. Plus, the real life ppl are all serving life sentences in jail now. This just shed a whole new light on the movie to me.

I haven't watched it yet, because well, I don't think its being released here in Japan, but all my Asian-American friends who've watched it have loved it, all saying that they definitely saw parts of themselves in the movie. I've only seen the trailer and I can relate a bit already. The fact that Superboy mentions this is a true story gives pause to one who might say its "unrealistic."

White, yes, just be sure to remind yourself that everyday when you wake up in the morning. You like the movie? REALLY? Good job.


Removed Personal Attack. FHaggis, you were warned.