Another thing that bugged me was the Enterprise's [convinient] new ability to detect "positronic" signals. Excuse me? I thought that just was the way his brain was "wired", and had nothing to do with radiation or signals, etc. If this was the case they would have found Lore and all the other Soong androids long ago, including Soong's android wife.

Good Points:

1. I liked the little refrences that they put in for all the fans.
USS Archer
Riker meeting Data etc.

2. I thought the battle was good and put in a lot of points that i wondered why they didn't do it before (like facing the strongest shields towards the enemy)

3. I thought Shinzon made for a good enemy.


Bad points:

1. I thought Shinzon was way to focused on with no real purpose. In other words the development of the Romulan/Federation plot line takes a back seat to the revenge plot of Shinzon. (very unfortunate)

2. The whole

5. The existance of the Remans really did not sit well with me. Do we really need another alien race? Why not develop the ones that we have (cough cough Romulans). And why did they make them so obviously the bad guys. I much prefer the cunning and subtlety of the Romulans.

6.

Plot Holes:

1. When Picard says that "the same heart beats in our chest". So did Shinzon also get stabed in the heart and have to get a mechanical one in his starfleet academy years. (sorry, really geeky moment there )

Reactions that I don't understand:

1. This is not a good send off of TNG crew at all. how in the world can you think this is a good send off? It left so many loose ends. STVI was a much better, all loose ends are tied, send off. They definately need another movie after this one.

2. Why do people keep refering to Insurrection as crap when I thought it was worlds better than the fecal matter which is ST:V. You aren't that young are you?

Questions:

1. Wasn't there an episode in TOS that explained why the Romulans patterned the Romans so much? What happened in it and why did they do this?

I'm a long time Trek fan and I have to say, I really enjoyed the film. I also enjoyed Insurrection(flame on) and don't at all believe in the odd number curse. And yes, I do find moments of ST:V extremely rewarding and very "Trek" centered. After reading all the point brought up I can see where it could have been better but on the whole I really dug it and can't wait for the DVD.

Inurrection was originally suppose to be a very dark film but Stewart got involved and made them change it so it was liter and he had a romance. BAD idea. Much the same way Spiner should have not been allowed tobe involved in Star Trek 10. Actors should act. I think they are probably barganing ploys to get the actor to be involved at all but the last two movies suffered from Actors egos if you ask me.
Insurrection we had boob jokes, zit jokes. Data as a flotation device and a joystick on the Enterprise bridge. Reason enough for me to give the film a thumbs down.

Admittedly, the "Joystick" on the Enterprise and the "Red velvet Couch" on Ru'afo's bridge were Huuuuuge mistakes. Data as a flotation device, also a mistake. Regarding the actors making strides in Directing/Writing, I think Nimoy did outstanding work in both 3 and 4 both in front and behind the camera. Five could have used a more seasoned approach but it still sputtered through with some great stuff! Scotty and the Bulkhead, The scene with Sybok and Bones, Spock and Kirk exposing their deepest pains, the comedic interation between the big Three

(Kirk,Spock & bones)"Kirk-I need a shower...Spock-Yes". Five definately had some great moments. I felt the Next Gen cast did very well in Nemesis. Certainly, Data's death could have been
handled better.

and the storyline definately could have been hammered out a bit more but on the whole, it's very enjoyable. (IMHO)

I'm with you, boys (or girls). As I posted at the beginning of this thread, I found Nemesis to be a good time. I have a feeling a lot of the bashing going on is bandwagon-jumping. I just saw The Two Towers last night and was severely disappointed in that film. But you'll find the same people who are on saying here, "That's it, I'm done with Trek", over on the TTT boards saying, "I really need to see it a few more times to decide whether it's good or not". Huh? The first thing I said after coming out of TTT is that there were no "goosebump moments", which I had 2 or 3 of in Nemesis. The hype is in place and people will defend TTT as a great film simply because they expect that every one else will have that opinion and they don't want to be left out. Same with the Trek bashing. EVERY SINGLE PERSON I have talked to "in real life" that saw Nemesis has enjoyed it and gave it a favorable review. The only place I see it being bashed is online, because the fanboys must all fall in line, apparently.
(Disclaimer: obviously not EVERYONE here or online elsewhere falls into my generalization, it is just that, a generalization.)

All I know is that I am anxious to see Nemesis in the theater again, and even more anxious for the DVD. I'll pick up TTT on DVD when it comes out, but I can definitely wait.

Good points. I'm with the 'really enjoyed the movie' crowd.

Generalizing is an understatement.

We dont agree with your assessment of the film so we are jumping on the perverbial bandwagon? HUH?
If you go back a few pages you will see my review. Though not a total disaster like 5 and 9, I think it has it's good points and bad points.
I think it would have been a much better film if they hadnt cut all the character stuff out to make it an "Action" movie.

I dont know, I have read the reviews of Nemesis and read the reviews of TTT(havent seen it yet) and there has got to be something to the 99% favorable rating on Rotten Tomatoes. Goosebumps? I cant honestly say that I didnt have any during Nemesis. I am saying that because I feel it, not because I want to be part of a "Group."
I have talked to a lot of people IN REAL LIFE about the movie and some liked it, so, your theory doesnt really hold up about Online negativity.
Just because you liked the fim doesnt mean everyone is going to share your opinion, live or "Online."


As far as my earlier comment. I was very happy with what Nimoy did for the franchise but not with what Shatner, Spiner and Stewarts input.

Here is a review from Film Threat which nicely sums up how I feel about the movie (and has a couple of lines which seem tailored for das Monkey ).
____________________________________________________

STAR TREK: NEMESIS
by Mike Robinson
(2002-12-17)

***

2002, Rated PG-13, 100 Minutes, Paramount Pictures

PREFACE: This review was written by a Trek fan-not a Trekkie. Fans enjoy the franchise when it’s good and criticize it when its bad-Trekkies trust Berman's and Braga's intentions, accept “ST: Voyager” as quality entertainment and wear Starfleet uniforms to jury duty.

With the notable exceptions of Star Wars and The Matrix films, no film franchise comes with as much collective baggage than the “Star Trek” series. And now in 2002 (with Trek excitement at its lowest ebb since the years before the first motion picture) comes “Star Trek: Nemesis.” Written by Gladiator scribe John Logan (an overwhelmingly professed Trek fan) and directed by Stuart Baird (industry vet and Trek virgin), the film chronicles the confrontation of Jean-Luc Picard (Patrick Stewart) with a Romulan-created clone of himself named Shinzon (Tom Hardy) and also presents several TNG characters at their own personal crossroads, leading to events that will affect the future of the film series. “Nemesis” is an obvious attempt to mix the high-drama of “The Wrath of Khan” with the mainstream appeal (read: box office) of “Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home,” and for the most part it succeeds. How well it succeeds depends on whether you are a Trek fan or not…

For non-fans, this could easily be their favorite Trek film ever. “Nemesis” has a more epic scope than the usually penny-pinching Paramount allows and Jerry Goldsmith comes out of his Insurrection coma to produce what may be his best and most ominous score since the first Star Trek film. Tom Hardy as Shinzon (while no Ricardo Montalban) does a promising job of playing a twenty-something Picard with an intergalactic chip on his shoulder, but the real menace of the film comes from Ron Perlman as Shinzon’s Viceroy (emoting under pounds of latex, proving once again that he may be one of the best makeup actors ever). The techno babble is mercifully kept to a minimum (a true sign of appealing to a mainstream audience) and the climactic battle is for once not anti-climactic. The only problem the regular audience may have is the fact that, although marketed as a hard-core action film, “Nemesis” is much more drama centered and has only one action set piece in its first 80 minutes.

For Trek fans, the film is actually a little more problematic: most of us know that the film lost 40 minutes of footage before reaching release length and it has the feeling of being rushed (here’s hoping for a DVD director’s cut). The appearance of yet another unstable android proves that Dr. Soong was a dangerous madman that got lucky when he made Data (who once again has lost his emotion chip, apparently). But it’s two simple words that may be enough to keep some fans away: Admiral Janeway. The humor is not as hackneyed as in previous films, but the life-altering moments that occur to the crew for some reason don’t carry the emotional resonance that one may expect. Logan does pepper the script with asides that only the fans will get and Baird does bring a new visual sensibility that Trek hasn’t had before in the way of action sequences, but ultimately this may be a Trek film the non-fans enjoy more than the hardcore (like “Generations”). I do believe the film’s marketing may have given an inaccurate impression of what to expect, so perhaps on second viewing (with no preconceived notions), the film will resonate better…and any film that requires a second viewing for you to decide whether you thought it was effective or not can’t be all that bad.
__________________________________________________

• Quoth Numanoid •<HR SIZE=1>I have a feeling a lot of the bashing going on is bandwagon-jumping. The only place I see it being bashed is online, because the fanboys must all fall in line, apparently.<HR SIZE=1>

Maybe "liking the film" is the bandwagon. Or maybe "claiming those who have a different opinion from yours are bandwagon-jumpers with no substantial reason to say so other than your own arrogance" is the bandwagon.

I didn't like the film. I didn't hate it either, but it had too many problems that I'm not willing to overlook. It's what we call an "opinion." People, amazingly enough, can form them on their own without the help of others. Shockingly, they are sometimes different from the opinions of other people.

I'm glad you enjoyed the film, and I'm glad your friends enjoyed it ... but you can take your insulting generalizations about those who disagree with you to a place where people actually listen to such nonsense. Nothing makes an opinion come across less valid than absurd generalizations about those who disagree with it. Not only does the act abuse both a logical fallacy of subject and an inductive fallacy (never a good way to make a point), but it's also just plain rude.

das

• Quoth Numanoid •<HR SIZE=1>and has a couple of lines which seem tailored for das Monkey .

PREFACE: This review was written by a Trek fan-not a Trekkie. Fans enjoy the franchise when it’s good and criticize it when its bad-Trekkies trust Berman's and Braga's intentions, accept “ST: Voyager” as quality entertainment and wear Starfleet uniforms to jury duty.<HR SIZE=1>

He loses me with the opening statement. I'm a Trekkie to the core. Being a Trekkie, though, doesn't mean you blindly accept that which you disagree with. It means (to me) that you subscribe to the overall theme that Trek embodies ... among other things, not only an acceptance of those who are different from you but a celebration of those differences, a search to better ourselves individually and as a society, and an exploration of what it is that makes humanity so special. When they think Berman and Braga have lost sight of such things, I wouldn't expect anyone who claims to be a Trekkie to blindly sing their praises.

das

rrriiiiggghhhhttttt
http://www.suntimes.com/output/ebert...artrek13f.html

the telepathy was simply there to let them find teh cloaked ship later. I think data said the transporter thingy was a prototype

hate to say it, but I was actually disappointed with a Trek movie
just saw it tonight. thoughts I've had
the lack of explanation for Worf.
I also was wondering
about Picard's clone. They specifically said his accelerated aging had not been done, and we saw him as a kid. Even if he was only 18 that'd still be before Picard became captain of the Enterprise so why pick him to clone?
And what about Wesley? He's in uniform, with at least ensign rank, but the last time we saw him he was leaving to go with the Traveler and basically abandoned starfleet, and wasn't he still a cadet?
the star wars rip off when riker jumped into the jeffries tube
why follow him? can't the sensors lock on to a reman? why didn't worf follow riker to back him up, worf would have done that, it's in his character
another Soong android, which I can accept as it makes sense that there would have been a basic prototype before data and lore, but how did the remans find him?
I'll still buy it on dvd, and I was entertained, but it could have been much better

and as other's have mentioned on the net, no mention of Spock?

well, they didn't at least not really

woah, just realized this thread was a year old

Shatner found a way to bring him back

I carefully chose words and phrases like "I have a feeling" and made sure to point out that my sentiments were based on my personal experiences (which are all I have to base anything on). I also was sure to add a disclaimer saying I realized I was making a generalization and not everyone would fall under the umbrella I created. All this amounts to what? MY OPINION. So, in essence, das, you are telling me not to voice my opinion in an argument about how I shouldn't try to silence opinions. Do you see the circular logic at hand there?

Anyway, my post was not directed at you and the others in this thread who have intelligently laid out their positions, but moreso at those who come in with such enlightening statements as "this movie sucks" or "bad, bad, bad" and leave it at that. As I said, I've seen many of the same names over on the TTT boards claiming that they'll really need to give the movie another viewing or two to make up their minds, which makes me wonder why they don't entertain such notions for this film. My conclusion was that it's cool to come in and bash Nemesis, while it's cool to go in and support TTT. I apologize if I have offended you or anyone else here, that was not my intention. I was just offering MY opinion on a possible reasoning for a good deal of the anti-Trek bile.

For clarity, there's a difference between expressing a negative opinion about the content of a film/whatever and expressing a derogatory opinion about those who like/dislike said film/whatever. Yes, they're both opinions, but the former is the driving focus of this forum; the latter, however, is dangerously close to something that's not allowed on this forum. It's the difference between attacking an opinion and attacking he who gives the opinion.

I accept that you weren't trying to offend those of us in the thread, but I hope you can understand that when you make such a broad generalization, a simple disclaimer that you're only insulting most of us but not all of us rings a bit hollow.

Anyway, moving on ... I actually saw TTT tonight and liked it quite a bit. It was a bit flawed in parts, and I like FotR a bit more, but overall, I was very pleased with it. I can understand why some may want another viewing of it. It's so epic in scope that I could understand why someone may feel like he didn't take it all in on one viewing. Nemesis, however, isn't particularly epic. It's "large" but not "epic." That is to say, there are lots of big explosions and threats of destroying entire planets, but when you get down to it, it's a very isolated tale. Both the Romulans and Federation are almost nowhere to be found; in fact, even the crew of the Enterprise has little to do other than stand around and watch Picard and Data act and send Riker off into the corner for a gratuitous fight scene. Two different types of films. While I don't feel a need to see either of them again, I can see how more would be gained through a second viewing of TTT, particularly in the context of FotR.

For reference, while I've been very vocal of my distaste for the second half of Voyager and most of Enterprise, I'm actually very quick to defend Trek. I'll defend The Motion Picture and The Final Frontier and even Generations and Insurrection to my dying day, as I think they each have important stengths that should not be so quickly dismissed. And in time, I will also defend Nemesis. As I've said, I don't hate the film, but there's really a LOT to criticize. And unfortunately, I think it's emblematic of overall problems in the entire franchise. I don't find myself defending Braga products, because I don't see them as Trek. There's little that resembles the heart and vision of the franchise in his work, and consequently there's little to defend. It's most certainly not anti-Trek ... in fact, I think it's the most pro-Trek stance I can take.

I can't really speak to the generalization you're making, except to say that I think there are as many pro-Trek drones as anti-Trek drones. There are many who blindly bash the franchise; yet there are countless others that will accept anything with the name Trek slapped on it. I don't think one view is more of a "cool" stance than another. I could be wrong about that, though.

das

You are saying that you used the word "generalization" so it wouldnt refer to everyone but who exactly is it referring to then, just the people who dont agree with your opinion?

I agree the films can be even better on a second viewing but if a film is flawed and this Does have its flaws, thats not going to clear up those things after seeing it a second or third time.


I tend to fall into the die hard Trek fan who in recent years has been very dissapointed in the lack of imagination that Trek has shown and if its not good I say it and when it is, I write that too. Unfortunately there just hasnt been anything to defend lately.

Interesting tid bit I caught on darkhorizons.com this morning.
These scenes sound great.
This is what the film is missing....

Star Trek: Nemesis (DVD): Empire Online talked with Director Stuart Baird about the cut scenes in the tenth Trek film that'll hit the eventual DVD: "One of the scenes that went was where we introduce Shinzon to the audience before Patrick Stewart sees him. But it didn't have a lot of information that we needed. It was a nice scene but it completely undermined this very dramatic and theatrical reveal when Patrick Stewart first meets him". There's also an extended ending where according to the mag, "Picard is introduced to his new first officer, who presumptuously addresses him as Jean Luc at a smirking Ryker's suggestion. Another scene involving the captain's new chair will also find a home on the home release". Baird says "We had this big climax, with the battle and then some heart-rending moments with the crew. But then after all the gloom, I wanted a touch of hope, for the sun to just come out and end the movie. But there was a whole bunch of other scenes, which were jokey: saying goodbye to other people and a scene with the Captain's new chair and it just seemed superfluous. The film was already over, really, so I cut them out".

I am in the midst of reading the script now, and there is A LOT that was cut out of this film. Almost everything we have discussed in this thread as missing is in the script. References to Lore, why Worf is there, etc. I believe the intro to Shinzon is probably what is in the script: While the opening credits roll, we see a three year-old Shinzon before the Romulan Senate, his fate being decided, then we see him outside of the Reman mines, looking up at the stars before he is grabbed and whisked away to the mines. Sets up his discussions with Picard a little later.

What do you folks think will happen with the DVD? Will we get a barebones release in July, and have to wait for Nemesis to come up in order (we're waiting for The Voyage Home now) for the Director's Cut? Knowing how Paramount likes to triple dip Trek, it wouldn't surprise me, but the DVD market is quite different now, I'm not sure they could get away with it.

Exactly, because those films, while full of flaws, at least tried to be Star Trek. Trek 5 failed, but the theme and idea was pure Trek. Insurrection was full of crap that was shoe horned in, but the overall plot was Trek... I'd defend that one the least.

I will bash Voyager without mercy because it ony failed in being a "lets try to get ratings" show.

so maybe imdb.com was right after all about the new commander being in it. they list the guy who plays the cia agent on JAG (can't think of his name now) on the list of actors but he wasn't in it. they also list diana mulder as coming back as Pulaski but that wasn't there either

I haven't gone researching, but I keep reading references to 40 minutes which were cut from the film at the studio's demand that it be more of an action film. Hopefully we'll see the full 40 minutes restored on the DVD (seamless branching at least, rather than "deleted scenes").

This whole situation has made me think about something. Films now make more on home video than they do during their theatrical runs. The studios know this. Do you think they intentionally make cuts like this, which are well publicized for some reason, in order to maximize the DVD dollars? Are films being produced foremost for home video, with theatrical releases being a necessary, but second-rate, consideration?