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Jet Li is dump

Old 06-11-01, 12:56 PM
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Who's with me? I can't stand the guy, and haven't seen a single movie of "his" that was any good.
Old 06-11-01, 01:04 PM
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then you haven't seen any of his good movies.
Old 06-11-01, 01:05 PM
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Originally posted by torrance
then you haven't seen any of his good movies.
I guess not. I have a hard time believing they exist, though. Besides, my point was that he makes the movies bad.
Old 06-11-01, 01:06 PM
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k. i'll be over here enjoying fist of legend & tai chi master.
Old 06-11-01, 02:25 PM
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Originally posted by torrance
k. i'll be over here enjoying fist of legend & tai chi master.
A friend of mine lent me Tai Chi Master... I was not impressed. Fist Of Legend- I don't even remember this one, though I know I saw it...
Old 06-11-01, 04:45 PM
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While he has done his fair share of movies that I found horrible, I think he has also done his fair share of good, action-packed movies.

I remember the painful experience of sitting through Black Mask, Lethal Weapon, Romeo Must Die, etc..

However, I also remember the great experiences sitting through so many of his other films. While a lot of people rip on High Risk and it certainly isn't one of Jet's usual martial arts films, I found it to amazingly fun and full of non-stop action. I think the work Jet Li has done in the Once Upon a Time in China series, Fist of Legend, the Fong Sai-Yuk movies, and many other films easily outweighs the bad stuff he did.
Old 06-11-01, 05:22 PM
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Originally posted by badger1997
While he has done his fair share of movies that I found horrible, I think he has also done his fair share of good, action-packed movies.

I remember the painful experience of sitting through Black Mask, Lethal Weapon, Romeo Must Die, etc..

However, I also remember the great experiences sitting through so many of his other films. While a lot of people rip on High Risk and it certainly isn't one of Jet's usual martial arts films, I found it to amazingly fun and full of non-stop action. I think the work Jet Li has done in the Once Upon a Time in China series, Fist of Legend, the Fong Sai-Yuk movies, and many other films easily outweighs the bad stuff he did.
I try to pay attention around here to whose tastes are similar to mine; I think you usually like the movies that I like. I totally agree that Black Mask, LW4, and Romeo Must Die are horrific. But I also really can't stand (rather can't sit through) OUATIC, Fist of Ka-Ka, or any of his other movies. They all suffer from poor writing, poor direction, poor acting, and poor production values. I rented OUATIC and my eyes practically bled it was so heinous.

Now, I'm not trying to be a troll... I was hoping someone other than me would have the courage to come out and admit that they don't like Jet Li. But I guess saying that he is "dump" ain't quite right. The truth is, he is great at doing the display/exhibition stuff that he won all those awards for. In fact, if he was in competitions, I would enjoy watching and rooting for him. But man, his acting is suckekekekeke... am I the only one not buying into the hype?
Old 06-12-01, 11:49 AM
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Sir Caustic, from what you're saying I'd guess he's just one of your pet peeve actors. You know what I mean, one of those people that no matter what they do, you find it annoying, unpleasant and hard to deal with. We all have actors like that. Mine include 90's Mel Gibson, Post Joe v. Volcano Tom Hanks, Travolta and Michelle Pfeifer.

I say that because while he has made bad movies, I think he's also made some really good ones. I don't see your criticisms of OUATIC or FSY as ringing true, I felt the production values, acting and story lines were fine. The only thing heinous about OUATIC was that the firearms were 100 years too old and the caucasian actors were suck. That was rectified in 2 and the rest of the series though.

Any hype about Jet Li so far in the US has been wasted, as his US films so far have been dump. But I remember watching FSY and OUATIC when they first hit a film festival in the US before the hype and not knowing who Lie was, and liking them.



[Edited by renaldow on 06-12-01 at 09:52 AM]
Old 06-12-01, 03:16 PM
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Originally posted by renaldow
Sir Caustic, from what you're saying I'd guess he's just one of your pet peeve actors.

Any hype about Jet Li so far in the US has been wasted, as his US films so far have been dump. But I remember watching FSY and OUATIC when they first hit a film festival in the US before the hype and not knowing who Lie was, and liking them.
You could be right. Maybe my real peeve (and the bias which colors my perception of him) is the overhyping of the guy...
Old 06-12-01, 05:00 PM
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I've never heard anyone (besides the occasional gushing female fan) "over-hype" Jet's acting abilities. As even you have admitted, he looks awesome fighting on screen, and that is what everybody hypes. He is probably among the best ever movie fighters, so I don't see how he can be overhyped.

BTW, if you don't want to be seen as a troll when posting volatile topics, you may want to reconsider your username and signature.
Old 06-12-01, 05:15 PM
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Originally posted by ipkevin
I've never heard anyone (besides the occasional gushing female fan) "over-hype" Jet's acting abilities. As even you have admitted, he looks awesome fighting on screen, and that is what everybody hypes. He is probably among the best ever movie fighters, so I don't see how he can be overhyped.
Well, to be honest I was talking about his "fighting". It looks like dump. The choreography stinks, the wirework is ridiculous, the undercranking is and the camerawork/direction is clumsy. I wasn't even going near his acting. Look, what I was trying to say is that if he was doing his moves in a setting that showed them for what they are and allowed me to just appreciate him as an athlete/dancer/whatever, I'd be happy with him. But instead he gets stuck in god-awful productions that really don't capitalize on the talent that he obviously has.

Originally posted by ipkevin
BTW, if you don't want to be seen as a troll when posting volatile topics, you may want to reconsider your username and signature.
Ouch. That stings.
Old 06-12-01, 05:35 PM
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Originally posted by SirCaustic
Who's with me? I can't stand the guy, and haven't seen a single movie of "his" that was any good.


What's not to like about him? He's made dozens of worthy films and the physical feats he pulls off are astonishing. Check out Once Upon a Time in China or Fist of Legend.
Old 06-12-01, 06:17 PM
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k sircaustic is going to shoot down any suggestions anyone makes, so save your, uh, typing energy. he's got an anti-jet li hair in his bum, and we ain't gonna pull it out.

solution: don't watch jet li movies.

thanks for trying to tell us why he is bad, and our opinions are wrong, though. way cool.
Old 06-13-01, 11:40 AM
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Originally posted by torrance
k sircaustic is going to shoot down any suggestions anyone makes, so save your, uh, typing energy. he's got an anti-jet li hair in his bum, and we ain't gonna pull it out.

solution: don't watch jet li movies.

thanks for trying to tell us why he is bad, and our opinions are wrong, though. way cool.
Actually you're off there, pal. Where have the suggestions been? So far I think I counted one mention of a title that I haven't seen, and I didn't say anything against it. In fact, I may go rent it if I can find it. Here's the thing: if I was in a big hurry to "shoot down" suggestions, I wouldn't have watched the half-dozen or more Jet Li flicks that I have. I continue to try to give the guy the benefit of doubt. I do have a bit of an "anti-jet li hair in my bum", true. I just don't "get it". The solution definitely is not to watch any more unless I get a really solid recommendation.

As for your own sarcastic coda, I am not "trying to tell" anyone why Jet Li is "bad", nor am I trying to "tell" you that your opinions are "wrong". Nor do I care whether you think I am "way cool". I stated repeatedly that I think he is talented and that he is a fine athlete/martial artist. If I could change the title of this thread, then I would- it is sillier and more imflammatory than it needs to be. I was hoping to attract the attention of someone who, like me, is unimpressed with the quality of Jet Li movies. I still am amazed that nobody here agrees with me (except that some have agreed that his recent "Hollywood" stuff is crap). All of my buddies outside this forum are of a like mind...
Old 06-13-01, 11:47 AM
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Originally posted by Li Mu Bai
Originally posted by SirCaustic
Who's with me? I can't stand the guy, and haven't seen a single movie of "his" that was any good.


What's not to like about him? He's made dozens of worthy films and the physical feats he pulls off are astonishing. Check out Once Upon a Time in China or Fist of Legend.
Well, what's not to like is that the films of his that I have seen are crummy, and the physical "feats" that you describe lose a lot of their luster when it is painfully obvious that wires and undercranking are used to make them look as "astonishing" as they do.

Can someone recommend a Jet Li film to me that doesn't have incredibly phony looking fights, and doesn't have ludicrous dialogue, and doesn't have moronic camera work and editing? Basically, the ones that I know I have seen are:

Black Mask
LW4
OUATIC
Romeo Must Die
The Enforcer
Tai Chi Master

and possibly one or two others.

Old 06-13-01, 02:26 PM
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The only Jet Li film I've seen is Romeo Must Die, which I thought completely sucked. I'm a huge Jackie Chan fan and always see people saying Jet Li is much more skilled than Chan in martial arts etc. I like good fight scenes and Chan's are the best. So I watched Romeo and the fight scenes were extremely lame. Realizing it was regarded as a very bad Jet Li movie, I did some research to find what a good one is to see why people regard him higher than Jackie. The only movie that got consistantly good reviews was Fist of Legend. Every other movie seemed to have as many people liking it as disliking it. Fist of Legend is now on my list to rent but haven't gotten to it yet - so my suggestion is to try that one out. Sounds like if you don't like that one you aren't going to like any Jet Li movies.
Old 06-13-01, 04:41 PM
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Originally posted by Jeraden
The only Jet Li film I've seen is Romeo Must Die, which I thought completely sucked. I'm a huge Jackie Chan fan and always see people saying Jet Li is much more skilled than Chan in martial arts etc. I like good fight scenes and Chan's are the best. So I watched Romeo and the fight scenes were extremely lame. Realizing it was regarded as a very bad Jet Li movie, I did some research to find what a good one is to see why people regard him higher than Jackie. The only movie that got consistantly good reviews was Fist of Legend. Every other movie seemed to have as many people liking it as disliking it. Fist of Legend is now on my list to rent but haven't gotten to it yet - so my suggestion is to try that one out. Sounds like if you don't like that one you aren't going to like any Jet Li movies.
I think I saw that one- it is the one I always forget. Thanks for the tip, the thoughtful response, and the support.
Old 06-13-01, 06:39 PM
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You know, you really shouldn't watch the English-dubbed Hollywood versions of his Hong Kong movies. The music and dubs really drain the hell out of any drama and even the fight scenes.

Also, if you watch his movements, there's something 'crisp' and powerful-looking about them that you don't see in a lot of Jackie Chan fights (though I think Jackie's choreography is much better). I suppose how much you appreciate this depends on how into MA you are.
Old 06-14-01, 01:22 AM
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Hi SirCaustic,

I first want to say that I am a big Jet Li fan. I do have a suggestion for you if you're not into wire-fu and special effects martial arts movies. His first movie debut when he was 18 years old was in "Shaolin Temple". It is an excellent movie with real shaolin style fighting and no wire-fu or special effects. They have the champion martial artists in their particular field (drunken style, sword style, boxing, spear, etc.) with major acting roles in the movie. It's Jet Li's first movie and I think one of his best.

I also think you should take into consideration that an action star is only as good or as bad as his Director. He is just one ingredient in the recipe of a movie. Even when he is good, the other bad ingredients might mess up the final dish.
Old 06-14-01, 11:15 AM
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Originally posted by ipkevin
You know, you really shouldn't watch the English-dubbed Hollywood versions of his Hong Kong movies. The music and dubs really drain the hell out of any drama and even the fight scenes.
I try not to.

Originally posted by ipkevin
Also, if you watch his movements, there's something 'crisp' and powerful-looking about them that you don't see in a lot of Jackie Chan fights (though I think Jackie's choreography is much better). I suppose how much you appreciate this depends on how into MA you are.
'crisp' I'd agree with. Powerful, well, I dunno. Jet seems to "pull" his moves very very suddenly. He is so fast, and then his punch or kick stops so instantaneously on a dime... is that what you mean? You know in CTHD (I just watched it last night so it is fresh in my mind) when Yeoh and Zhang are having their first fight, there is a moment when Yeoh does this two-handed "thrust" to Zhang's midsection? The camera slows down, and Yeoh puts more "force" into that one blow, and it stops very "short" (little/no followthru). Kung-Fu movies always have some stuff like that that is supposed to be more "powerful". The Matrix had tons of it in the Fishburne/Reeves fight in the "Dojo". Looked IMO. Bruce Lee did a lot of it too, followed by howls and muscle poses. Garbage. So, yeah, it looks crisp, but I don't like it. What looks "powerful" to me is when a dude like Jackie Chan *actually* kicks his stunt-guy right in the chest and the guy goes stumbling backwards from the impact. I am glad that at least you agree that Chan's choreography is better.


Jet Li is a Wushu (sp?) champ, and Wushu has room for fluidity and crispness. I love Martial Arts, and I think he is a great "performer" within a limited scope. I have no doubt that he deserved to win all the awards that he did. Just remember that not *all* MA teaches "crisp"-ness.
Old 06-14-01, 11:19 AM
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Originally posted by ironmonkey
Hi SirCaustic,

I first want to say that I am a big Jet Li fan. I do have a suggestion for you if you're not into wire-fu and special effects martial arts movies. His first movie debut when he was 18 years old was in "Shaolin Temple". It is an excellent movie with real shaolin style fighting and no wire-fu or special effects. They have the champion martial artists in their particular field (drunken style, sword style, boxing, spear, etc.) with major acting roles in the movie. It's Jet Li's first movie and I think one of his best.
Thanks. Sounds like I might like it, and I'll definitely try to find it.

Originally posted by ironmonkey
I also think you should take into consideration that an action star is only as good or as bad as his Director. He is just one ingredient in the recipe of a movie. Even when he is good, the other bad ingredients might mess up the final dish.
Absolutely, and as I stated before in this thread, I think that he has suffered from bad directio, and also bad choreography, bad camerawork, bad everything. I really feel like a troll , I should have just stated off the bat that "Jet Li Movies Are Dump", or something like that . But seriously, Jet can not carry a borderline bad movie the way a real star can (like Jackie Chan, for example ). I guess that is my main point.
Old 06-14-01, 12:11 PM
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Originally posted by SirCaustic

'crisp' I'd agree with. Powerful, well, I dunno. Jet seems to "pull" his moves very very suddenly. He is so fast, and then his punch or kick stops so instantaneously on a dime... is that what you mean? You know in CTHD (I just watched it last night so it is fresh in my mind) when Yeoh and Zhang are having their first fight, there is a moment when Yeoh does this two-handed "thrust" to Zhang's midsection? The camera slows down, and Yeoh puts more "force" into that one blow, and it stops very "short"
(little/no followthru). Kung-Fu movies always have some stuff like that that is supposed to be more "powerful". The Matrix had tons of it in the Fishburne/Reeves fight in the "Dojo". Looked IMO. Bruce Lee did a lot of it too, followed by howls and muscle poses. Garbage. So, yeah, it looks crisp, but I don't like it. What looks "powerful" to me is when a dude like Jackie Chan *actually* kicks his stunt-guy right in the chest and the guy goes stumbling backwards from the impact. I am glad that at least you agree that Chan's choreography is better.
Not exactly. It's not like in CTHD/Matrix where the whole scene pauses to show him quivering with power. What I mean is that there's a *snap* to Jet's moves. He explodes, and retracts just as fast. At the same time, he's often using really severe form or just looks like his body is rigid with force which emphasizes the feeling of power. Obviously, it does depend a bit on choreography, but in general I feel he has a certain way of moving that differs from Jackie. With Jackie, it's more loose, but sometimes it comes across as just "intricate flailing". You know? He throws a million punches that look like they have no more power behind them than a face slap. Again, it depends on choreography, but even then Jackie's posture and stuff, with a bit of slouching and what not just visually suggests somehow that he's not hitting that hard. Remember that I'm talking movie martial arts here. It just about LOOKING powerful. I can't say if it really is or not. (though as I understand, stuntmen really get kicked in HK kung fu movies, be it a Jackie film or not)
Old 06-14-01, 01:03 PM
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Originally posted by ipkevin
Not exactly. It's not like in CTHD/Matrix where the whole scene pauses to show him quivering with power. What I mean is that there's a *snap* to Jet's moves. He explodes, and retracts just as fast. At the same time, he's often using really severe form or just looks like his body is rigid with force which emphasizes the feeling of power.
Well, I knew what you meant, but I am simply disagreeing. I think that the "whole body being rigid" and "retracting as fast as he explodes" actually detract from how "powerful" it looks. Like I said, that style has been around for awhile, and I have never been crazy about it. Whatever, I am a "weird" Martial Arts fan- I can't stand Bruce Lee. I like the Peking Opera House stuff- Jackie and all of his buddies.



Originally posted by ipkevin
With Jackie, it's more loose, but sometimes it comes across as just "intricate flailing". You know? He throws a million punches that look like they have no more power behind them than a face slap.
Yes, I know what you mean. I like his "flailing" though because to me it looks *more* realistic, which is what I am actually after.

Originally posted by ipkevin
Again, it depends on choreography, but even then Jackie's posture and stuff, with a bit of slouching and what not just visually suggests somehow that he's not hitting that hard. Remember that I'm talking movie martial arts here. It just about LOOKING powerful.
Well, to me, this is the core of the debate. What does it mean to "look powerful"? I rarely am impressed by things that do not mimic real forces at work, real actions, et cetera. I just find his style hokier, and it seems like hack moviemaking. Like when you see a dude get shot with a big pistol and he flies backwards through a window- there are lazy conventions of filmmaking that are way over done. They don't "sell" the moves to me.
Old 06-14-01, 07:49 PM
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I like Jet-Li and I think that he has amazing skills. I personally do not like his films. When it comes to martial arts cinema I think that the best films are those by BRUCE LEE, SONNY CHIBA and the SHAW BROTHERS productions. Gentlemen they just don't make them how they used to.
Old 06-14-01, 10:43 PM
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Wait a sec...

Originally posted by SirCaustic

Well, I knew what you meant, but I am simply disagreeing. I think that the "whole body being rigid" and "retracting as fast as he explodes" actually detract from how "powerful" it looks. Like I said, that style has been around for awhile, and I have never been crazy about it. Whatever, I am a "weird" Martial Arts fan- I can't stand Bruce Lee. I like the Peking Opera House stuff- Jackie and all of his buddies.

...

Yes, I know what you mean. I like his "flailing" though because to me it looks *more* realistic, which is what I am actually after.

...

Well, to me, this is the core of the debate. What does it mean to "look powerful"? I rarely am impressed by things that do not mimic real forces at work, real actions, et cetera. I just find his style hokier, and it seems like hack moviemaking. Like when you see a dude get shot with a big pistol and he flies backwards through a window- there are lazy conventions of filmmaking that are way over done. They don't "sell" the moves to me.
That explode & retract approach IS more realistic. That is what they actually teach you in real life (at least where I've been). Don't leave your arm hanging, hit fast, body position/tensing at the moment of impact (ie, the rigid body thing) and try to end it as quickly as possible. Jackie running around, receiving and dishing out a hundred hits before anyone falls is not more realistic.

Mind you, I'm not saying either of them makes truly real-world type fights. Not even close. But I think Jet executes his moves in a more authentic manner and just looks awesome doing it. If you can't get past the fantasy flying superman portions of many of Jet's films, then fine. But don't condemn ALL of his choreography and fighting performance based on a few parts that aren't to your taste and are obviously meant to be unrealistic.

Now, stop talking to me and go rent Fist of Legend already!

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