Based on what you say you've seen - I could suggest a bunch of Jet Li films that I like, but it seems you just don't like martial arts done with wires. It would probably be a waste of time. You ought to know that Jackie films use wires just as much as Jet Li films. They just use them in different ways. If you don't believe me, go rent Jackie Chan: My Stunts. It's all wires, man.

It sounds like you're saying if someone likes Jet Li, then that person is just buying into hype as if they can't think for themselves. Well I can't speak for anyone else, but I can tell you that I made up my own mind about Jet Li and I like his films and I think he's gifted at what he does. I also like Jackie Chan and his films. I also like other martial artists as well. It just sounds like you don't like HK cinema in general. You probably like the big budget hollywood influenced HK action flicks (like the Jackie Chan films or the Gen-X Cops type stuff), but you just can't get into the more traditional HK cinema.

You don't like Bruce Lee, you don't like Jet Li, you don't like traditional HK fantasy kung-fu films, but you DO like Jackie Chan and his merry band of crossdressers (that was a cheap shot and I'm ashamed of myself ) and CTHD. You say you like Martial Arts, but like what? Jackie Chan's MA are more of a stage thing and the MA in CTHD were laughable (even though it looked impressive). Are we all wasting our breath on you? What's next?- are you gonna start a thread about how much you hate the Olsen twins or how much you think Nickelodeon movies are crap? (that made more sense when I was thinking it) - if the entire genre is outside your realm of interest, why start a thread bashing Jet Li? Why not go off on Yuen Woo Ping and his entire family too while you're at it?

Anyway - the Jet Li movies you listed that you've seen are among my least favorite (even though I still like them) Jet Li films with the exception of Tai Chi Master. Here's a list of Jet Li films I prefer...

Fong Sai Yuk 1 & 2 - great comedy and fun story, but there's wire-assisted gravity defying
Swordsman 2 - fantastic action and good story, but there's flying and stuff.
Last Hero in China - spoofy comedy of sorts based on the OUATIC series. I liked it alot, but most people don't. The martial arts are over-the-top outrageous to the point of being intentionally funny
OUATIC 2 and 3 - I didn't like part 1 all that much, but I liked 2 and 3... still - it's more of the same.
Kung Fu Cult Master - worth a shot
Kids from Shaolin (Shaolin Temple 2)
Kiss of the Dragon - looks like it's going to be amazing (to me)
Fist of Legend - I wasn't all that impressed with this one, but some of the fighting is superb.

Bottom line, Jet Li could kick your ass

All I know is when i go to watch a Kung Fu flick, the only thing I look for is some kick butt action and fighting sequences....I could care less about the actors acting skills. A kung Fu movie should be judged on great and well choreographed action scenes....not whether the star can act....Just my opinion.

I know Jackie uses wires... I never said I hate anything done with wires. I am aware that there exists an industry of "stunt" work, both in HK and here. I know it isn't real... the last time I checked, non-HK MA movies used wires, airbags, blue/greenscreens, blanks, rubber weapons, etc.

I didn't say that everyone buys into hype. And I did say, repeatedly, that I think Jet Li is gifted at "what he does". And I don't dislike "HK cinema in general". Just because I am unimpressed with the apparently holy Jet Li and Bruce Li doesn't mean I dismiss an entire nation's film output.

Anyway, I think that I've made myself clear: I think that the Jet Li movies that I have seen are crappy. I should have chosen a better thread title, and am happy to be criticized for initially coming off as a troll. Really, based on the movies I have seen, I don't understand his success and wondered why people have elevated him to the level of stardom he is at. And I have listed the movies of his that I have seen- most of them are the "big-budget Hollywood influenced" ones. If I didn't like them, why do you think that I "probably like the big budget hollywood influenced HK action flicks "? I don't even know what Gen-X cops is... You are not wasting your breath on me. I intend to check out more of his movies based on the recommendations that I have gotten. What more can you expect? An instant conversion to your viewpoint? Look, if it's true that I just haven't seen his good flicks, why jump down my throat? If I came in and said that Robert DeNiro was dump based entirely on the rocky and bullwinkle movie, it would be silly. But I have seen most of the Jet Li movies that have come out since he exploded onto the US scene, and several of the older ones. I just picked the wrong ones, right? I appreciate your response.



Edited to add: "Bottom line, Jet Li could kick [SirCaustic's] ass " Well, duh.

Fair enough...

Black Mask - I kinda liked it, it's still one of my least favorite Jet Li films
LW4 - I liked this film... I'm somewhat of a fan of the LW films and even though he didn't do a whole lot in this film, he certainly commanded a presence on screen.
OUATIC - I prefered part 2 and 3 (and even Last Hero in China) over this film, but still I liked it.
Romeo Must Die - I really liked this one... I don't understand why everyone poops on it. Jet Li's early moves against the black dudes always get me shouting... awesome.
The Enforcer - This one probably moves a bit slow - it's more of a drama. DDDHouse has this film (My Father Is a Hero) on DVD for like HK$40 (which is only a few US bucks) in the original language.
Tai Chi Master - If you didn't like this film, then I don't know what.

I'm sorry but I have to agree...What I have seen of Jet Li on screen has not been very impressive....He doesn't seem to project any "prescence" in either his acting or his fighting....Someone like Jackie can turn a complete mess of a movie into something worthwhile just through his choreography...I don't know how many times I've watched a Jackie film thought"Yeah it was ok " but then watched a fight and gone"Wow that was cool" and rewind it for a closer look....Something that Jet just doesn't achieve...Maybe working with someone who can make a movie that goes with his style would help..usually I think it's just a case of "Yeah he can do it" and throw him into some lame-o trash like "Romeo...."Maybe "Kiss of the Dragon" will reinvent him....He said recently he wants to cut down on the make-believe and become a more realistic movie fighter..... hopefully this approach will work...I really do think he is a talented performer..He just needs to be given the right vehicle to show it off...

Man, so much Jet Li bashing. For those of you who have very little exposure to traditional Asian action flicks--not just HK/Korean/Chinese fantasy MA flicks, you should just learn to take things as they are. Well, this is especially true when you've been weaned on flying swordsmen and whatnot for a good portion of your formative movie-watching years. The overt differences in cultural standards say quite a lot about the discrepancy in audience tastes and appreciation of what's immediate and ubiquitous (in your country).

Look at CTHD, many people in the east detested the film while western filmgoers gave it 10 academy award nominations--CTHD won FOUR in the end. CTHD was more or less a successful hybrid of what classic Asian movies can become when made by someone exposed to the cultural duality. The east didn't appreciate it because the film itself wasn't as traditional as liked, in terms of directorial style, camerawork, and martial arts--even a mainland Wu Shu master in a particular western institution criticized this latter bit a great deal in local newspapers. The west took to this movie like bees to honey only because no one in the states ever made a grandscale hybrid as quite pleasing as Ang Lee.

The "stuff" that most Americans have been exposed to are not always what's duly "celebrated" or raved about in the east. Those are the struggling americanized MA movies that try to adhere to eastern action film principles while incorporating elements in of the west in varying degrees of success. (i.e. Kiss of the Dragon, The One, Romeo Must Die, CRADLE 2 THE GRAVE--which is coming soon) The movies brought OVER from the east and dubbed/subbed in the west are not always great either, although they still represent what's lauded in other parts of the film world. Is it not already obvious that Hollywood exploits (foreign) stars whenever they can even if they have a modicum of sales potential? The movies like Black Mask, OUATIC, and Shaolin Tzu/Temple, were made explicitly FOR other countries, other people, and other cultures. Had the directors, producers, and writers known at the time that such ethnic movies would be remotely appreciated in the US, the majority of Jet Li films would have been made in the west.

(For the record, Jet Li's acting is more or less fair game in Americanized films, but still, many other factors should be taken into consideration when assessing his performance in his HK/Chinese films. Since I am a great fan of the LW series, I personally liked his performance in the 4th and last installment. I concur with the fact that he had much screen presence although he had barely any lines. Just keep in mind the fact that dialogue in subbed or dubbed imports are pretty mediocre--if not horrendous; if you are not familiar with or cannot understand the original language, then you miss the subtleties conveyed alongside the acting. When’s the last time you saw a Jackie Chan movie in its original language?)

So, what was my point? Asian MA movies cannot even be compared to the vast majority of Western films because they have a charm, style, feel, and appeal that's strictly their own. Yes, "charm" and "appeal" are wholly relative, but until you've had proper, *protracted* exposure, you seriously don't know what you're talking about; it's just the senses of film superiority, ethnocentrism, and superciliousness are completely unfounded. Sure, you can judge things without taking into consideration many factors, but you can't do it and expect not to sound specious, insipid, and narrow-minded.

Is this thread too old to revive or what? Usually, there's a lot of feedback or one-liner retorts. (-; Am I beating a dead horse here? Hmm, could be.

I love Jet Li, even his American stuff. His acting in his US movies blow, but i enjoy the fighting. I liked Romeo Must Die, and somewhat enjoyed Kiss of the Dragon. I really like The One, as its a guilty pleasure. I dunno i just think they're fun movies with mindless action. I personally like the fighting style too. As for his old movies, i've seen a few and i enjoy them as well.

Perhaps the originator of the thread didn't see your reply, or maybe you're correct.

I can't really argue with you. It's very true that cultural gaps are hard to fill in any instance. Just look at Miramax. They'll pick up any foreign film available, but only release and promote the ones that may reap a profit (and edit those that need "improving"). And that's only skimming the surface of a country or culture's film offerings. Go any deeper or farther from US influence and you end up alienating the audience. And no one has the balls to pay for the mega-promotions generally reserved for most-common-denominator crowd pleasing "product." I'm talking about stuff that's light-years away from American output (Iranian cinema is probably the best example).

I can't really comment on Jet Li, haven't seen enough of his work.

Best thread title ever.