Hmmmm...

Here's another interesting spin on Copyright...

Some countries (and I think the US might be one of them) allow you to make backup copies of copyright material. Most countries seem to have copyright laws that wouldn't care if you bought an *original* CD and copied it to tape (or mp3) to listen in the car (or on a portable mp3 player).

So if I had legit Star Wars VHS or laser disc copies, which I duplicated to VHS or VCD so I can keep my originals intact, the copies only being used for personal use, is that OK? If I got someone else to do it for me, but originals and copies are still mine, for my personal use? If I bought bootleg DVDs, but have legitimate licensed copies already, is that OK?

This gets pretty hazy.

I have five copies of the Trilogy (4-6).

VHS Original Pan&Scan
VHS Original Widescreen
VHS SE Pan&Scan
VHS SE Widescreen
VCD SE (Lucasfilm authorised VCD) Pan&Scan

I bought the VCDs because I wanted a copy of the trilogy I could watch repeatedly without deterioration until the movies were released on DVD. I'm now buying the bootlegs, because it's the only way I'll get the original trilogy on a digital medium with decent quality. Lucasfilm already has my money for TWO copies of the original film, I'm really just paying someone else to transfer it on to a digital format for me. I'll be buying legit copies of ep1, and 4-6 when they are released on DVD. This is just to keep my addiction fed in the mean time.

Simon

smclucas brings up a good point. I seem to recall the very same thing. Using this "law" we could say that "owners" of legitimate VHS or LD copies of the movies are entitled to "own" a "bootleg" DVD because they in fact do own a "legal" copy. In other words, the DVD is just their backup for the legitimate VHS they own.

I do think that I should probably take the "Berne Act" (Berne Convention) information out of my original post though. The original thought behind that post was to raise awareness to such laws that can protect such material and often times are misused and misread in an attempt to legitimize illegal activity such as "bootlegged" materials.

I can see now that all of a sudden everyone is calling themselves a "lawyer" in an attempt to throw a monkey wrench into this discussion.

For those that failed to read one of my earlier posts I stated that I feel these DVDs by no means are protected by the "Berne Convention".

I will admit that since I am not a lawyer I quoted my information about the "Berne Convention" from sites that listed such information in their FAQs. Again, not being a lawyer I was easily swayed to believe the interpretation I have read. I never thought a simple DVD Review thread would turn into a law school witch hunt.

All references to the "Berne Act" will be removed from the original post.

Please NOTE
If for any reason you should find fault with any portion of my reviews please post here so I can remove the inconsistencies as soon as possible.

Thank You

Can you post the front and back cover-scans of these movies? The ones that I have seen have The Empire Strikes Back screen shots on the back of each case. Regardless of the movie.

Also, Episode 4 only is listed as "Star Wars: Trilogy". You have to see the artwork on this title. The X-wing fighters look soooooo baddd. Maybe this is what is on the laser disk, but I really dont think so.

Each DVD says on the back that its in "5.1EX" and the words playstation compatible are writted across the bottom of each DVD.

These DVD's have not yet been opened, so I cant tell you about video/audio quality, but I was wondering if they were the same ones you are mentioning. I will try to post scans if I get get to them)


-Taco

it's not a witchhunt. it's a disagreement over the content of your "simple" DVD review. your review included a section purporting to give information on the state of copyright law. this section was, in my view, wrong. like any incorrect section of any DVD review, a debate began. then the debate ended. don't try and make yourself some kind of martyr over it. you're the one who brought the Berne Convention into this thread, not me. you turned the DVD review thread into a copyright thread, not me. if you wish to avoid debate on a topic you're not prepared to discuss, you should avoid it altogether.

where did anyone call themselves a lawyer?

DJ

I see. Thanks for the response.

I just wanted to note -- in case you didn't notice -- that I included links to old eBay auctions for the legal laserdisc versions, not any bootlegs.

You might be able to get away with this. In most cases, you would have to make the backup copy yourself to use this argument, but if you can obtain an identical copy from someone else, you would have a chance. You'd have to have the identical item, though. If you have Chinese-subtitled VCDs, you'd have to have the original Chinese-subtitled LDs as well. Having the Definitive Collection originals and the Chinese-subtitled bootlegs wouldn't work. The way I read it, it has to be an exact duplicate of the original for private use only, and you could never destroy, sell, etc. the original. Any slight difference and you'd own a "bootleg" and not a "backup".

Even then, you'd be treading a thin line and you're likely to lose.

Yeah, my bet is that if it were ever legally challenged this (and other) DVD sets would be marked as "bootlegs" and NOT "backups". Since these DVDs are being used for personal use only I think the only people that really need to worry about anything are those that are actually selling the DVDs.

Yeah, I agree.

^ Bumping for visibility ^

It appears a rash of new SW threads popped up this morning all discussing the same thing(s).

Over the Easter Holiday I was able to check out the set through a better TV set with S-Video hookups so I thought I would post my findings. The TV I used was a 27" Philips Magnavox with an S-Video connection. While this isn't much better than what I originally tested with (27" Admiral) at least the S-Video hookup provided a little insight as to what higher end TVs and connections would reveal.

The video quality itself was not much different than what I had seen at home through my RCA Video connections. The one major difference that I noticed was the horizontal lines (scan lines) were more pronounced. The "blackness" levels were much better with the S-Video connection so the top and bottom black bars melded into the picture a little better. Other than that, there isn't really anything more to report.

Aside from that, I remembered someone asked to see pictures of the covers just to see what they look like. Well, as I noted in my initial reviews, the covers are nothing to write home about. I didn't really get a chance to scan the covers this weekend due to the holiday but I was able to scam some pictures from fleabay. The pix for Episodes 4, 5 and 6 are pretty good but I wasn't able to get a good pic of Ep 1 so I have two so, so pix you can look at. I hope this helps.

Star Wars Episode I: Phantom Menace
Front Cover


Full Front and Back


Star Wars Episode IV: A New Hope


Star Wars Episode V: Empire Strikes Back


Star Wars Episode VI: Return of the Jedi


As I mentioned in my reviews, the team that did the Trilogy really needs to do their homework. Aside from calling Episode 4 "The New Hope" instead of "A New Hope", it appears they used images from "Empire Strikes Back" on every DVD Cover (except Ep1 which was done by someone else).

I hope everyone has gotten something from my reviews I am thinking of doing a similar review thread for other such DVDs. Again, any new review threads will be strictly "review" and will by no means provide source information. Give me a few days (or a week) though, I'm working on buying a house... don't have all the free time in the world now.

TK-421... do you have anything to add to the reviews? I know that BadAsh has been extremely thorough, but it is nice to get several opinions. I want to thank Bad Ash for the extreme amount of time he has put into his reviews and this thread. Has anyone watched these on a RPTV or with a progressive scan player? I am starting to waiver a bit. I definitely want these DVD's, but I don't want to have buyers remorse either.

while these reviews are very informative and well done, could someone be kind enough to review them when viewed on something meant to show DVD and its quality like a 40" ( atleast, more like a 55" ) widescreen HD ready RPTV or a FPTV with a progressive scan/or HTPC DVD player?

My initial guess would be that they look horrid

Thanks in advance

Sorry for my delay.

I purchased the four movies for $98 shipped, so $25ish per if anyone cares. And yes, I know I got ripped off since I paid $8 total for the 3 SE's and TPM last time. A nice profit for these guys in Singapore.

Having owned the SE bootlegs, I kinda knew what I was in for when I bought these. The biggest plus of course is no more burned in subtitles. I was able to live with them, but anyone else who saw it always noticed them. The second thing of course is these are not the SEs, so Han fires first again, and all is well in Star Wars land The third nice thing is the extras. BadAsh already went over them in detail so I won't rehash them. Suffice to say, they're nice, but it's too bad there aren't more.

The TPM bootleg is very good, having been mastered from the TPM Laserdisc like my other one, but they removed the Japanese subtitles this time. Although I may be wrong, it almost looks like the contrast was turned up on this copy. No extras at all on this disk.

I agree with BadAsh that the sound is decent, but I would think the SE bootlegs sounds are better since those are native 5.1 from the SE LaserDiscs, while these are matrixed. Also, as I've said before, the video quality is passable, but not great. I really, really, wish the bootleggers would use a higher bitrate, but then I guess that would require more space and better pressing technology for multilayer work. Better than VHS, not up to DVD standards.

I would like to complement Paul Champagne's case work. It really makes a nice touch on the DVD rack.

I guess I feel not horribly ripped off, as these are a better work than the SE boots, but I still can't wait for the day when these movies are legitimately released, and I can toss my bootleg copies out. Worth less than $98 shipped IMO, but definitely better than buying the Widescreen Trilogy VHS for $50 again.

Update: Watched my copies on a 32" NEC Monitor, so I doubt that qualifies for high quality.

[Edited by TK-421 on 04-22-01 at 09:03 AM]

I got mine for 50 bucks shipped..Dont jump at the first offer people..Shop around..these guys in asia pay like 10 bucks a copy, most of them are willing to come way down..

I just got my copies of The Trilogy in the mail. So far I've only watched SW and ESB. I also have the SE's and several VCD version's. I must say it was nice to see the orginal's again. It was also VERY nice to have no subtitles to bug ya. I know my FRIENDS will like this fact!

These were worth $70 bucks!

I got my copy of the original Trilogy and Episode I last week and I was really glad I got them. Yes the video is soft...but it beats the hell out of my VHS copies of the original trilogy. The sound is great and the extras are cool, especially the trailers. My only complaint is the sound delay in the last part of ESB....the sound of the lightsabers out of sync was rather annoying. All in all well worth the 70 bucks I paid for them.

^ Bumping for people that don't know how to do a Search ^

I find it quite odd that two new threads have popped up this week asking all kinds of questions that are answered in this Thread. Even when this thread gets bumped to the top still the people in the new threads somehow miss it.

Oh well.

For those that do find this thread, I hope you find the answers you are looking for, otherwise please feel free to ask.

BadAsh, thanks for the work you’ve done to keep this thread alive. And I especially appreciate those who gave information and feedback on the Champagne cases.

As one who waited in line many times for the original showings of Star Wars, and then eagerly looked forward to doing it again for the sequels, having a DVD copy without subtitles of the only version that matters is important to me. But after getting a VCD of TPM a while back that totally blows, I’m not anxious to throw away more money on unknowns. I’m sure I’m not the only one who appreciated the reviews and feedback.

What surprises me about this thread is that BadAsh has, at least a couple of times, made a declaration that the original Trilogy will never be “officially” issued on DVD and there has been not one word of dissent. What’s up with that?

badash - i really appreciate this thread. i would never have considered purchasing these until i read the reviews. I had no idea bootlegs could have video/sound quality that were decent. i guess i expected your typical Grateful Dead concert tape or something!



As someone who has never, ever purchased this trilogy on vhs, vcd or dvd before, i am wondering if someone could inform me of the sound/video quality of the SE version of the trilogy on dvd? I don't have the aversion to the new Special Editions that many have (although i prefer the originals), and i am most interested in SOUND, so i imagine the SE's could sound better. Could someone confirm this for me? ALso, are there a plethora of different SE bootleg releases also? WHich ones are the best?

Thanks!

First of all I have to say, that I've seen the entire Special Edition Trilogy + Episode I here in Germany on Pay TV in anamorphic widescreen and full 5.1 Dolby Digital surround some days ago. The sound quality of the bootleg Episode I DVD in contrast to the original 5.1 is a disappointment, especially concerning the LFE channel. It seems that on the DVD the very low bass elements from the front channels has been put on the LFE channel with increased volume. Additionally, the original LFE data seems not to be transferred to the DVD. Some very deep bass moments in the film (i.e. the "force push" by Obi-Wan at the very beginning of the movie) do not have the same "punch" as in the original 5.1 mix. It also seems, that the surrounds on the DVD mix have not been transferred correctly. The original mix features much more ambient sounds, i.e. in the Gungan swamps.

let me clarify my question:

i've gotten a pretty good idea of the sound quality of this new Star Wars original version dvd that just came out...

what i am asking for is: what is the sound/video quality of the previous bootleg SPECIAL EDITION dvd's out there? and are there more than one set floating about?

Thanks in advance!

Pasolini, I do not have the SE "bootlegs" so I can only go on what I have heard and from reviews I have read from reputable DVD sites. It is my understanding that the SE "bootlegs" are not as good quality in terms of video as the latest set and at times suffer from discoloration and color saturation (especially red). The SE "bootlegs" include non-removeable subtitles on the top and bottom of the screen that tend to bother some people. As for the Audio, I don't remember hearing anything about that but I do know that the SE LaserDiscs are available in DD 5.1 so it is possible that the SE "bootlegs" sound better than the newer DVDs based on the "original" trilogy.

I knew of a link to a site that reviewed the SE "bootlegs" a while back... if I remember the site owner has neglected updating several links so it isn't really helpful anymore. I'll see if I can find that for you.

Okay, Pasolini and anyone else interested, I was able to find some reviews of the older Special Edition "bootleg" DVDs. The first one is just on "A New Hope" while the second is supposed to cover all of the Star Wars "bootlegs" but the links are really messed up.

DVD File's Bootleg Report - Star Wars: A New Hope
http://www.dvdfile.com/software/boot...s_anewhope.htm

DVD File's Bootleg Report - Just How Bad Do Bootlegs Look?
http://www.dvdfile.com/software/boot.../star_wars.htm

I hope this helps you out. I remember reading the last one when all the links were working. It was very thorough and had several screen shots that demonstrated how bad some versions of the SE "boots" actually looked.

I want to remind anyone reading this that there are severl different SE "bootleg" DVDs floating around out there so it is sometimes difficult to figure out which one(s) to get.

The main thing you will notice is the one thing the SE "boots" and the original "boots" have in common... ESB has audio-sync problems. In the case of the SE disc, that was fixed so hopefully the new "original" version will be fixed as well.

I'd like to add a few cents to the discussion on copyright.

First of all, copyright laws have several loopholes. Instead of clear-cut do's and don'ts, most of the times the decisions are left to the courts and greedy lawyers (especially in the States).

This said, we don't all live in the States, so for some of us this discussion is not to the point. Italy, for instance, has very different interpretations of copyright.

And if you want a really good discussion on bootlegs, the Berne Convention and Big bad Wolf Uncle Sam, I strongly recommend every one of you reading "Bootleg", by Clinton Heylin (do a search on Amazon). This is a very carefully written book, and makes very valid and valuable observations.

Don't take for granted laws simply because they exist and they are twisted by courts - that's a very strong advice I need to give some of the Americans here. It is a patriotic and civil duty to question everything that the government does, and strive for clarity, because don't forget, they are, in theory, your servants, not your masters.

I will quickly point out flaws in copyright as you know it:
1) the provisions for making back-up copies of materials you own.
2) your right to buy, sell and use second-hand.
3) distribution rights are combined with copyright. Hence, aberrations like "European version" vs. "U.S. version" in music and more recently in film. An extension of this line of reasoning is that you can't, legally, buy imports! You can only have what company X decides you should have, not what you want or need.
4) Anomalies like "abandonware" are not being addressed. Companies do not keep stocks. You buy when they offer it, otherwise you're out of luck. That's not fair for the consumer!



All these things being said, the thread started as a discussion of the features present on this DVD set. I am very pleased with the DVDs, and I feel that they are by far the best chance to have the original movies. I have the original edition laserdiscs (anyone want to buy them?), which I was planning to record on DivX, since I don't have a LD player. This DVD set is by far superior to any home-brewed solution.

Here is the most comprehensive review of the bootlegs out there (minus the current releases)

http://www.thedigitalbits.com/articl...ots/index.html

And yes, the SE boots have true 5.1 DD sound.

I have the "C" edition of SW:SE, the "A" edition of ROTJ:SE, "B" edition of ESB:SE, and the "C" edition of TPM.

[Edited by TK-421 on 04-19-01 at 12:45 PM]