Yes, they did. Those horrible dubs prevented the movies from being taken seriously and only made the genre look bad. Note that you are saying you like watching them because they are "hilarious" and that has nothing to do with the films themselves.

That you think "all dubs suck" only says something about you, not the fact that there aren't any good English dubs.

Where you there when these films were actually in the theatres? Like I said I was and that was the only way to see them.

Name one good dub that you believed the actor and the English dub had the same inflection and tone as the original language to make you believe in what they are saying. Don't list any anime 'cause that is totally different.

It doesn't matter if that was the only way to see them during the 70s. That doesn't justify their badness or the stain they left on the perception of the genre.

And as far as good dubs go, it's useless mentioning any of them or having a conversation about it with you since you are obviously been hell bent stubborn on believing that "all dubs suck".

Sure it matters. It's just one avenue to opening oneself to other cultures and then investigating what is out there. You obviously weren't there when there was a huge interest in the mid 70's; then you would understand what I was talking about.


Now I'm really curious for you to name one good dub. I'm open to others opinions as you should be open to mine. It's just an opinion.

No, you don't seem to understand what I'm talking about. Most people were watching them as if they were all cheap exploitation films. Those dubs did no one any favors apart from building a skewed of it for most audiences and critics. It made the genre look bad. This isn't even an opinion. Listen to you talk about you liking those dubs only because they are so bad. Doesn't sound to me like any sort of ticket to the doors of another culture.

I've been through these kinds of discussions on forums with people just like you who proclaim how all dubs and yatta yatta. It's pointless.

If it's pointless why do you respond? Let it go. Bottom line those dubs were entertaining and for one who likes dubs you should defend them. As for people who were watching them as cheap exploitation films; you are totally wrong. Most that watched back then were martial arts fans. At least everyone I knew were. Martial arts were huge in general back then and a lot people watched it for that. Dude, I'm Asian and it doesn't bother me; I don't know why they bother you. You have nothing to defend except maybe liking dubs. That's your choice. I'm cool with that but obvioiusly my opinion offends you.

You still haven't named one---I'll just assume there isn't one.

Don't take one reply for the whole thing. I am not talking about what dubs I think are good and arguing that with you (that is pointless), I am talking about the integrity of these bad dubs, which you even admit they're bad.

That logic makes absolutely no sense.

Oh really? So then these films were not playing at low rent theaters in double bills with crappy B-movies at the time? These movies were not being re-titled with more exploitative names (i.e.,"5 Masters of Shaolin" to "5 Masters of Death", "36 Chambers of Shaolin" to "Master Killer"). These films were not being marketed in a exploitative fashion? Critics were not digging a new hole into them week after week (frequently targeted on Siskel & Ebert's segments where they named the turkey/dog of the week)? These horrible dubs did not became almost a flagship to what these movies were actually remembered by that still get made fun of and laughed at to this day?

Gee, I guess that must have been all just a dream.

Of course it generated interest in martial arts, just like something does in every generation (i.e. TMNT, Power Rangers) but that isn't what is being talked about. The actual integrity of those films and the manner which they were received by the general public was not in a good light.

I'm not being offended, and your race doesn't mean anything in a discussion like this. I know many Asians who are bothered by those very dubs so that ultimately proves nothing.

That's cute. Playing the bully. Nice try but no cigar.

"Of course it generated interest in martial arts, just like something does in every generation (i.e. TMNT, Power Rangers) but that isn't what is being talked about. The actual integrity of those films and the manner which they were received by the general public was not in a good light."


----------and putting English dubs on them gives them integrity? Okay. you win.



Umm, no. Bottom line is that dubs never got better and most on this board will agree; especially in the International forum. Those early ones were bad but in a good way. It was an introduction to HK film here. Your saying their expoitive but the smart viewer knew that and seeked out the originals. Plus these movies were so under the radar w/ Siskel and Ebert they never reviewed them on their show. Especially since they were only on PBS and most people did not know they existed until they went into syndication.

If your not offended why are you so defensive?

Dude, their just words. I can't believe I'm having this effect on you. LMAO.
I can't believe you feel so bullied. So sorry.

You still haven't named one good dub and I'm sure there are others here waiting for your answer besides me.

Putting English dubs on a release of a foreign film gives the viewer, the very person buying the film, a choice on how to watch the film. And if it's good, then yeah there's plenty of integrity to it.

Classic forum move, "I'm right because most here will agree". What I am arguing with, a child? Yes, they did get better. A lot better. Whatever you want to recognize that or not is moot.

And it's stern, confutative behavior like that which unfortunately influences others new to the scene to believe elitist filth like that or scare off those that think otherwise.

You are making no sense here.

[pquote] It was an introduction to HK film here. Your saying their expoitive but the smart viewer knew that and seeked out the originals.[/quote]

You aren't being consistent. You were talking about a very specific era (the 70s). What are talking about here, "seeking out the originals" was not possible until the home video era came on much later.

And no, I was not saying they the films themselves were exploitative, I said their treatments were and coupled with the horrendous dub jobs, the films were not given didn't make the film

Again you aren't being consistent. You said it was a big thing and now you are saying most didn't know about the films. Not making much sense in your argument really.

And no, Siskel & Ebert did mention some of these films on their early shows (they started broadcasting back in '76). To this day, Ebert does not have a good outlook on the genre and ignorantly believes that it was only until the introduction of films like Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon that the movies started to become "good".

Either you have trouble reading, are giving yourself way too much credit, or are just pretending in your head about this whole thing about me being "offended". Really now, how can I be offended when I wrote that I find your comments "cute" at best? Trust me buddy, you aren't even making me blink an eye.

Trust me, "others" are not waiting for an answer on this. Only you are pressing this.

And it's comments like that which are exactly what I was talking about before about you trying to play the bully. You are purposely ignoring what I said before about such a thing being pointless because you have made it abundantly clear on how stubborn you are on this topic. In simplest terms, there is no genuine opportunity for a real discussion on it. But you are doing this just to try to pretend at least that the tables are being turned on me. Always a sign of someone more edger to start an argument than to actually trade back and forth information.

I find it hilarious that there are people who relentlessly defend a practice that's pretty much universally despised by film buffs the world over. Sure regular old Joe Six Pack wants his dub along with his fullscreen disc from Wal-Mart, but I can't comprehend how anyone who really loves film would actually want a dubbed track, or even more so how the lack of a dubbed track would prevent them from watching and/or buying a movie. Now it would be different if there was possibly a legitimate reason for it, but there's really not many of those.

It makes you wonder if the things that are said are just for argument's sake.

Yeah, I'm with you there. It is pointless to keep up this argument.

You haven't given me anything to discuss. Your pretty adamant about your stance. I want to discuss a title which you think has a good English dub but all you do is keep saying it is pointless to name one. So, why did you even say there is one? You bought it up. So defend it.


Also, comments on the 70's sound so researched and your just basically parroting what you read. If you haven't lived it your comments don't mean jack; especially regarding the huge martial arts movie interest of the time.

I find it quite disturbing how such a spectacularly snooty comment can so easily be spat without as much as blink of the eye like the post that bjh 18 made.

It's like that post is one big code for "a**hole".

That's too funny. So I guess you were just posting random thoughts on this thread on a whim and they just so happen to coincide with my thoughts that I also was posting on a whim. Gee...special we are aren't we?

The irony of that comment is unreal. This, coming from a guy whose posts sound almost word for word the same as every other reviewer and every other poster on the topic on dubs. I have my own theory on such things, but I wouldn't want to start making comments that would be potential for other posters not involved to be insulted by (unlike some posters in this thread, but hey...they are bashing dubs so it's okay).

I've been quite an avid fan and follower of the Hong Kong film scene for nearly 3 decades sir (as well as other cinema). You better think twice before you start labeling someone as not knowing "jack" especially seeing as it was quite obvious that was about the only comment you had left to play.

Now unless you are willing to make peace, cause honestly this is boring me, then I'll just go ahead and ask to end this right here and now.

Most of what I find funny about this thread is how worked up the posts have been, and I love how you're resorting to name calling when all I was saying is that I can't comprehend how anyone would have that point of view unless there was a good reason for it. It just seems to go against so many things that are great about film. Most, if not nearly all, people here find it disturbing that a film fan would rather watch an altered version of a film that is not what the director intended.

Now, if you would be so kind as to explain exactly why you prefer dubs instead of the original language and vocal acting, then maybe this can be discussed in an appropriate way. But as of right now, all it has been is "I just like it this way" against "this is the way it's meant to be heard." It's fine if you like it that way just because you do and have for no other reason for it, but by continuing to argue without giving any reasons just makes it look like you're attempting to successfully argue a preference that goes against a fact, and that can't be done.

I wasn't name calling you sir. Saying "that post is one big code for "a**hole" was talking about the attitude on display in your post, which is quite disturbing. The fact that such talk is deemed fine here even though it is insulting and belittling of those out there who might not agree with the view that "all dubs are bad" is just plain distasteful. Consider that the poster who started this thread asked a very simple and honest question, only to be followed up with all of these snooty remarks and ridiculous high and mighty pride of how above and beyond they are (and you as well) on dubs and insinuating that there is an inferiority in the mind set to even enjoy a dub if they so deem it to be well produced. The rule that's in the air it seems is, "if you ever like a dub, you are nothing and not a real film lover ever' ".

I'm sorry, but such a belief and attitude is disgusting plain and simple.

As far a your question to me goes ("explain exactly why you prefer dubs instead of the original language and vocal acting") I cannot answer the question because I never made such a comment. I find it interesting that all I said was that there are some very well produced dub jobs made and someone here reads that as, "you only like watching dubs and do not like watching any films in their original language".

What's with your attitude? You get your panties in a jumble just because someone has a different point of view. This is a forum and you subject yourself to ridicule especially if you haven't backed up your point of view. ----scratch that. Forget it. I'm tired of this. I'm out.


bjh_18 he's all yours.

My sentiments exactly.

Sure sounds like name calling to me. I wasn't belittling anyone. I never called anyone out by name, as some have done, and I never used any derogatory remarks about anyone. Again, all I was saying is that I can't understand why anyone would prefer a dubbed version over the original language, especially to the point of refusing to watch and/or buy a movie simply because there was no dubbed version. So if there is anyone who would like to bring some facts and opinions to the table on that, it would be greatly welcome.

I never said anything about all dubs being bad. While I think the practice of dubbing is negative, I never said a dub couldn't be fairly well done. I have several friends who never knew "Brotherhood of the Wolf" was dubbed, and they had watched it several times before I told them. I thought it was absolutely terrible, but I had seen it in it's original language. But clearly some dubs are good enough to make some people not even realize it. And I never said that anyone has an inferior mind set because they enjoy a dub. Again, and I guess I have to continue to repeat myself, I'm talking about only watching something if it is dubbed, not choosing to simply watch something with a dubbed track. I'm just asking for the reasoning behind it.

And for that sir, I will appologize. As I initial read through the thread, your posts were so heated that I mixed up who wrote exactly what. That question should have been directed to this post:

I do think it's pretty weak not to want to back up one's opinion with one example of a
"good dub" to support their postion.....then to revert to the "I don't have to" approach makes their position suspect.

Now that wasn't really necessary. I'm not wanting a petty argument. I'm just trying to understand a point of view that I don't see any benefits for.

Oh really?

Well then, allow me to highlight the comments that do so:

- I find it hilarious that there are people who relentlessly defend a practice that's pretty much universally despised by film buffs the world over.

- I can't comprehend how anyone who really loves film would actually want a dubbed track

Those comments are the very definition of belittling. As is the inclusion you made of those who fit the above bill with your so called, "Joe six pack" (everyday average guy who doesn't know better). Those are insulting sir and is why I reacted the way I did in my reply to you.

I'm sorry, and I'm sure you didn't mean so, but that's an oxymoron.

Is it possible for you to accept that perhaps there are many people that are able to simply enjoy the experience of watching a dub that is well made because a well made dub could give them a more enjoyable experience than watching said film subtitled?

Think of it as the reverse of what mrhan said of those old martial arts films dubs. Whereas he said those dubs were "so bad they're good" then perhaps someone can see a well made dub as simply "so good it's good".

Apology accepted.

Sorry about that. I hope you accept my apology.

Ok, wow, you just can't let things go and discuss the actual topic.

I do find it hilarious because I don't understand where that point of view is coming from, and I asked for clarification of that from someone with that point of view. And the second quote has exactly the same meaning. I really can't comprehend that, so again, I'm just asking for someone to explain their point of view on it. And as for my "so called 'Joe six pack,'" that is a phrase that is used quite often on this board and elsewhere to discuss people who are not as well-versed in the facts or just don't care about them.

No, it's not an oxymoron. One dub can be better than another, and there can be certain dubs that are fairly well done, and by well done I mean that some people aren't able to tell they are a dub (see my example with "Brotherhood of the Wolf"). But I think dubbing in general is a bad thing to do and that's bad for the movie. The recording might be fine, and the voice actors might do well, but the practice of dubbing itself is something I don't agree with.

I never said that I couldn't accept that many people may enjoy a dubbed movie, all I want to know is why they enjoy it over the original language. If it's just because, then say it's just because. There are many different kinds of people who like many different things, and for those who want a dub over the original language, I'd just like to know the reasons behind that, if there are any.

Accepted with open arms.

bjh 18,
If you really want to discuss the subject further then let's do it over PM. This back and forth stuff on this thread has bored me really and is just harming the thread I think.

If not, then let's just end it here okay?