Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

I'm guessing 1080p. I don't know of any digital service like Vudu that offers 4k. At least not anytime soon. And defintitely not when these UHD discs come out.

As I posted a little bit up thread, only one of the titles Fox announced is truly 4K -- The Maze Runner. There's still HDR and a wider color gamut, though.

I'm not defending their selection of titles, although if Fox were to limit to only true 4K titles, they'd have almost nothing to choose from across the past decade and a half. (I hate that upscaled titles still have that "4K" banner, and I really wish there were at least one classic title in the mix, as Giles said.)

At the same time, the lack of a UHD BD version of these movies in 3D doesn't erase the regular BD 3D releases. While I do wish that 3D were part of the spec, I'll admit to not getting the indignation. The lack of high frame rates seems like a bigger deal since there's no way to view that content at home.

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

Yep, I'll never watch The Hobbit movies at home until they can do those at the right frame rate (AND in 3D!) Movies shot on actual FILM would've been the best way to showcase this format. Just hope they have everything ironed out by the time I can afford it.

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

Completely agree. But, for them, 4k 35mm or 70mm film scans would be too expensive, so they take the lazy way out by releasing some trashy recent films shot in digital as the 4k launch. Way to go, Fox!

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

Depends - then people would complain and say "how many times are they going to release the same film on a different format?" At least now, for the most part, they're releasing new(er) films.

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

Well, I think a great way to show off the stunning resolution of the new 4k format would be to go all out, spend the money, and release a stupendous 4k scan of a popular and relevant 70mm catalog film. Blow our socks off by giving us a 4k release of an epic film like BEN HUR or 2001, even a 35mm vault classic like CASABLANCA or OUT OF THE PAST and let the resolution speak for itself. It would practically be like seeing a new film, perhaps better than the original theatrical presentation.

For those who've got the money, time, inclination, and maturity to upgrade to 4k systems, I think that audience would truly appreciate it. The 1%, the true film buffs.

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

The Wizard of Oz was one of the first regular DVDs released, and used by many to show off how good they thought the format was.

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

Sure, in theory that could work, but they want to actually sell these things, so they're going to release the popcorn blockbuster type films on the format first. Only cinephiles would want to get Ben Hur, Casablanca, etc., again on this format right out of the gate. I mean Blu-ray already caters to a niche market anyway, so why would they want to have UHD cater to an even smaller market than Blu-ray?

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

UHD almost certainly will cater to a smaller market than Blu-ray ever did due to the rise of streaming. UHD will be for those wealthy movie lovers that have sunk tens of thousands into their home theaters. It's a subset of the current Blu-ray market. The Hollywood studios have no delusions about UHD becoming more popular than DVD. Those salad days are over.

UHD is about providing a premium format to keep their presence around in the retail channel.

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

To be fair, we only know seven titles from Fox. There could very well be classic films at launch.

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

-delete-

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

That demographic didn't shift to DVD right away. I know I didn't - and it took a while before the really good DVDs started coming out. DVD was not superior in quality when it was initially released. Sure, it's almost 20 years later and technology is different but for the studios to hope that UHD will be embraced by everyone (I don't even think it's being marketed to the everyman) is futile. Phantom Stranger made some excellent points about format adoption. Honestly, the only way I see UHD making a dent - the dent that was supposedly going to made by 3-D, is to price the hardware/software at extremely low prices. Pareto's principle (20/80 rule) will not sustain UHD if they market it to the wealthy and then you'll really see a divide in that folks will turn to cheaper alternatives like streaming.

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

I thought all the "DVD is inferior to Laserdisc" arguments were based on (1) lousy anamorphic widescreen downconversion in early players and (2) pre-release demos with abysmal encoding compared to actual release product. I didn't buy in until September 1999 and had never actually seen a DVD played before then, so I can't speak from firsthand experience. Either way, I'm not incredibly wealthy now and was certainly not in '99 (just beginning my senior year of college), so I'm not part of the wealthy demo you mentioned as the last bastion of Laserdisc. We got our first LD player in 1984, but it wasn't something I could rightly call "mine", and I hadn't laid eyes on it for a few years before adopting DVD.

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

I'm curious about that as well. My guess is no, not if it's UV code. However if they package Vitidy with it then yes. That would be ideal AFAIC.

I also wonder about 3D. What about the movies that have 3D versions released in theaters and make it on to 1080p BD. Are they going to bundle those with UHD BD, or will we have to choose between buying the UHD BD movie in 2D or the 3D BD?

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

Products don't need to be targeted to the mainstream to be successful. UHD BD will be niche, just like Laserdisc was. Laserdisc was around for over 20 years and was anything but extremely low priced. Anything that's low volume needs higher prices and there's only so much you can do to "force" volume on to a product by lowering prices. There's a tipping point beyond which lower the price further will erode profits (the resulting increase in volume won't offset it)

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

Definitely.

Simple "supply and demand" from economics 101. ;)

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

My feeling was that Laserdisc was probably a money-loser as far sales go but the accountants may have used the profits of VHS to offset the loses. They knew that the technology of laserdisc would be the future and it was worth the research and development to continue with the format - which ultimately lead to DVD.

I could be wrong but I think UHD Blu-ray, by the fact it is a physical disc, will barely survive even the niche market.

I would equate UHD Blu-ray to when D-VHS entered the market. Digital VHS was a superior format which offered 720p HD but it was a tape format when everyone was interested in discs.

There is even less tolerance in the market today for attempting to improve on an "old" technology.

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

Hollywood was much more of a movie-driven business in the days of Laserdisc. There are still movie fans in the business but today Hollywood is definitely run by MBAs and accountants.

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

I don't think this is the case. For one, Laserdisc lasted a couple of decades. Distributors like Image Entertainment and Elite Entertainment -- which were LD only -- thrived without having VHS sales as a buffer. The R&D for the format wasn't really shouldered by the studios.

I'm obviously not suggesting that LD was champagne wishes and caviar dreams for anyone behind it, but it did well enough to keep chugging along, and that's what I'm hoping for from UHD BD. I'm not optimistic it'll be a success even by niche standards, but that's still my hope, anyway.

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

Fair enough, but do you feel companies like Elite and Image Entertainment would have thrived had the larger studios not adopted the format as well?

In Asia and especially in Japan, laserdisc was the preferred format whose sales probably helped offset the lesser demand in North America.

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

Very sad, but true, and probably the #1 reason why UHD will fail. Those young, hotshot MBAs running the movie business will release a few slipshod titles in 4k, expecting the next magic bullet, see that they don't sell very well, and kill the format. Self-fulfilling prophecy. This is a niche-niche market where 1000 units selling will be a big run for titles. If those MBAs understand that from the outset, the format may indeed survive a few years.

4k scans of older films aren't cheap, and I can understand reluctance to release many of those... I do think that those MBAs might want to take a few for the team, ie those film aficinados who will be buying into 4k, however.

How fabulous would a top-notch 4k presentation of, for example, BLADE RUNNER look? I'm salivating there.

Honestly, though, does it matter? I'm not a shareholder in any of these companies. If the format is reasonably well-supported, the movies look terrific, and the discs aren't outrageously overpriced, that's all that matters to me. If the major studios don't find it worth their time but license to smaller outfits that do, we still get those movies at the end of the day.

FWIW, Image and Elite weren't the only companies releasing on LD either. Major studios like Fox, Disney, and Universal were handling their own releases even late in the format's life.

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

In the case of Laserdisc, it really doesn't matter but what I'm suggesting is that if UHD Blu-ray doesn't get strong studio support, I don't feel the niche companies have the financial backing to push the format forward.

With the studios already reluctant to push Blu-ray any further, I can't see them going balls-out on UHD Blu-ray at this stage.

But hey, maybe I'll look back at this thread in five years and I'll be completely wrong.

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

Laserdiscs were mainly distributed by two companies- Image and Pioneer. Of the major studios, Pioneer had Paramount, Warner, MGM and Universal while Image had Disney and Fox along with most of the smaller video labels (they picked up Warner and MGM in the last couple years of the format, around the same time DVD started). Pioneer put out a few music and anime titles in the first years of DVD but they don't seem to be doing anything now, Image still puts out Blu-Rays but not from any major studios.

Most of Image's laserdiscs were overpriced- single discs were usually $39.99 and anything requiring a 2nd disc (over 2 hours) went up to $49.99. This included B-movies, which I wonder how many were actually sold at full price. I got most of those as "cutouts" at Camelot Music priced at a more reasonable (for the time) $15 or lower. A number of their discs were also manufactured by Technidisc, which had terrible quality, but others were made by Kuraray in Japan which were generally perfect.

Considering how many Blu-Rays come with a standard DVD (which I see as pretty much useless), UHD discs will likely at least come with a standard Blu-Ray- if they do it that way I'll start getting titles right away, but as I did with the HD formats I won't buy a regular Blu-Ray by itself if the same title is on UHD, even if I can't play it right away.

I see things moving further and further away from stores and more towards direct sales. It'll be up to collectors to keep their ears open and make an effort to find things rather than being subjected to a studio push.

You're absolutely right about what you've said above, but I think we're defining "success" for UHD BD in two different ways. I'm sure expectations are modest, and there's not going to be a massive push from anyone at any point.

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

Mail-order was a big part of laserdisc for some people, as not everyone lived near stores that sold them. I still prefer going to actual stores whenever I can, but I'd rather order UHDs through the mail than not have them at all.

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

including the Columbia House Laserdisc Club, which is how I got a large portion of my LD library.

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

The studios hate direct sales and dealing with consumers, but I fully agree with you. The cost savings from selling direct are infinitely better when 1500 units will be a major success.

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

Alan, slight corrections...

When Pioneer was in it's hey-day, say late 1980s/early 1990s, they had distribution for Paramount and Live (Artisan - Lionsgate)

Image Entertainment distributed Disney, Fox and Criterion.

Warner Brothers, Universal, MGM and Sony did their own distribution. All of them, save Sony, would use various companies for replication, usually that was 3M, Sony, Pioneer USA or Pioneer Japan. (Sony used their own plants in Hunts"We ARE laserrot"ville and Austria for replication, unless there was over-run, as was the case with Men In Black.)

When the marketplace started to consolidate, around the end of 1995, Image picked up MGM, launching with Showgirls. (Well before DVDs launch actually, and may have had more to do with their distribution deal with Fox...)

A year later Pioneer picked Universal's distribution, and I believe the first title may have been Dragonheart.

Warner Brothers eventually signed a distribution deal with Image, I believe it was late 1997/early 1998, after deliberately screwing around with their LD release schedule for a year or so, to favor DVD. The most notorious delays were during the initial DVD launch. Space Jam (which was part of the regional launch) and Heat, which was said to have had "replication" problems, and delayed a month.

Sony never did sign a direct distribution contract, but they were the first to officially leave the business. I Still Know What You Did Last Summer was their final, and only, release in 1999. (LD fans knew we were screwed when John Carpenter's Vampires didn't get a release.)

fitprod

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

This format is DOA. If Blu-ray has failed to convince the majority of consumers to switch why would anyone believe the Ultra HD format would stand a chance? The push for Blu-ray adoption was tremendous and the studios cranked out a staggering number of titles in a very short time. I'd say 90% of the catalog titles I really want to own are already available on Blu-ray.

I see a short lived series of high profile Ultra HD releases and then a slow decline as with 3D. Its too late in the game as packaged media continues its steep decline. By no means am I greeting this with glee, 'cause it depresses the hell out of me, but it is the reality. I continue scooping up every Blu-ray catalog title my budget will allow before they are out-of-print forever.

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

I think Blu-ray took too long to release titles and, even now, there are still many, many popular titles that still don't have a Blu-ray release. The format will be 10 years old next year and only in the last year or so has there been a push
to release older catalogue titles through companies like Shout!, Kino & Olive.

On the other hand, I think if they flooded the market with catalogue Blu-ray, the demand would not have been there to justify it.

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

The catalog flood only happened because the studios don't view Blu-ray as profitable anymore and hence decided to license almost everything out to smaller labels.

The studios were so cautious releasing catalog fare that I think it did hurt Blu-ray's adoption. It was sad to see catalog movies getting better serviced over in Europe while Hollywood sat on their thumbs.

I fear the same thing will likely happen to UHD. This time the independent labels won't be able to rescue a movie, since 4K transfers will simply be beyond their economics.

A lot of these indie labels aren't routinely doing their own transfers, though. The lack of existing 4K masters for basically everything is a limiting issue, of course.

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

My signature hasn't changed in a year or more with almost no titles on my wanted list being released. Still some good ones out there that need a decent presentation.

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

Sharp to sell world’s first 8K TV in October, for about $125,000
"The first 8K televisions for consumers are expected sometime in 2018."

http://fortune.com/2015/09/16/sharp-8k-tv/

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Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

How long until BTTF and Jurassic Park are released in 8K? ;)

You had to have been around in 99 to appreciate that question. Every new member started by asking the same question.

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

Among other titles.

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

On the Netflix front, they have a few 4K titles available for streaming. Most are Sony, and include the following:

Lawrence of Arabia
Hitch
My Best Friend's Wedding
Jerry McQuire
Bad Asses on the Bayou (yea?)
The Patriot

And the spate of TV shows, including:

The Blacklist
Long more
Breaking Bad
House of Cards
Chef's Table
Marco Polo
Sense8
Grace and Frankie
Daredevil

I just hope they put up some non-Sony movies up. And I'm guessing we won't see many shows ever hit UHD blu. I'm hoping a decent amount of movies will see the full 4K treatment.

I have to admit, if it's not quite up to par with Blu-ray, some 1080 streaming I've seen (particularly Vudu), looks pretty damned impressive, in some cases good enough that laymen would probably find it as good as BD.

4K blu ray
 

I'm going to buy a 4K tv today. I know I will need a 4K blu ray players for the 4K blu rays but will my normal blu rays up convert on my normal blu ray player?