Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

More likely they'll subscribe to analog cable (why is that still around??) and watch it on stretch mode ;)

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

I think you've got a way too optimistic vision of its future. I agree with others in saying that people will meet it with indifference.

If members of a forum dedicated to DVD/HD media and movies/TV in general aren't seeing a lot of value in UHD, what hope is there for the format with the average Joe?

This has small niche written all over it.

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

For many cable operators, it's not. Comcast dropped analog cable in 2013:
http://bgr.com/2013/10/16/comcast-di...ter-criticism/

Charter dropped analog in 2014:
http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/b...ery-tv/268049/

Time Warner Cable dropped it in March:
http://www.timewarnercable.com/en/su...-adapters.html
http://www.syracuse.com/business-new...very_tv_1.html

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

They've dropped analog, but they still carry standard definition channels. That's what gets to me.

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

Charter over here has dropped most (but not all) of its standard-def channels. Part of the whole switched digital video thing, I guess...avoiding duplication to free up bandwidth for other stuff. The only SD channels don't have an HD equivalent, or at least not one that Charter carries here.

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

UVerse has a lot still in SD. Some are duplicates. I wish they'd move most of them to HD, or at least as many as they can. Not sure why they're keeping the dupes.

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

Some of it is probably the aspect ratio change. People with old SD sets may prefer the SD channel that crops the sides, instead of the HD channel that's letterboxed.

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

Likely part of the reason to carry SD when HD is available is money. Comcast in my area still has an upcharge do HD.

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

Ha ha, upcharge for HD- my antenna doesn't upcharge me anything for HD, I can't even get SD feeds of local stations- but apparently our cable company can, since I've gone into restaurants and seen the local news on a 4x3 standard-def signal, letterboxed and then stretched to 16x9 in a super-cinemascope ratio- so the places are paying for a worse signal than they could be getting over the air for free and don't even see how messed up it looks! I've gotten a keychain that turns off almost any TV, just hold down the button until it finds the right remote code and turns the damn thing off! It's made dining out so much more enjoyable! :)

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

I've never seen Uverse keep the customer in mind when making decisions like that.

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

Well there is optimism in other forums, that don't have "DVD" in their title.

It's amusing to see you guys write if off as ultra niche without having seen it.

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

Please enlighten us on how this is going to become a mainstream product.

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

What's the point. This place is so glass half empty that any optimism will be met with hilarity.

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

Point is, read the last 38 pages and stuff we've talked about. Then tell us something concrete that will show us this won't be a niche format. It can't be done. Unless you know something all of us here doesn't.

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

All one has to do is look at Blu-ray. 10 years later and it's still a fucking niche product. Shit, I know folks that finally own Blu-ray players and just buy DVDs. Hell, some folks don't want to pay the premium on the software. Hell, the players now are what DVD players got to towards the end. Under $100. The BD's themselves are still twice the price in some cases. AVERAGE folks don't give a fuck. They'll care even less about UHD. It's not lack of optimism at all.

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

Like I said, this is upgrade that the average consumer will appreciate, because HDR is about spectacular highlights and making the picture look more "contrasty", which is what the average consumer likes.

Through all these years of seeing Blu-ray underperform we have assumed that it's because the consumer's don't appreciate better quality. Well that's true, IF they don't sit fucking close enough to see the difference. DVD is still 2/3 the market, and not coincidentally that's about the percentage of people who sit too far away to appreciate the extra resolution from Blu-ray (or whose TV is too small, or both). It's not their fault if they can't see it, but we ASSUME they should see it, because WE can.

Well with 10 bit HDR and WCG that goes with it, that constraint goes out the window. So ANYBODY with an HDR tv will appreciate HDR. Not just 1/3 of the market. HDR TVs will become the norm within a few years so it will take time. And of course the physical market will continue to decline. But the UHD BD market share will grow, and grow to a bigger share than good 'ole 1080 Blu-ray has (33%, what a joke).

Another big reason is that UHD BD comes packed with a BD and a UHD code (well so far only Fox and Sony on the code thing, but the other studios will surely follow). So while you may think UHD sell through is going mostly digital, the value proposition says otherwise. a UHD movie online costs $30. Meanwhile you can get the UHD code with has the SAME everything (extras, and alt audio, subs) included free in the combo pack. Or another way to put it, you buy the UHD code that's include with the disc combo and you get the UHD BD and BD for free. In other words, there will be a lot of future proof purchasing. Especially with the glowing reports they hear from their forum buddies and review sites (such is THIS one for The Revenant, and why not, for $5-7 more?

But The Revenant UHD BD is selling for only $25 at Target and Amazon. It's still $30 at Best Buy. Speaking of which, an employee there says they got in 9 copies of the UHD and sold them all the first day and so they ordered 29 more copies. And this at the $30 price point. Also as I said The Revenant UHD was in the top 10 best selling list at Amazon, which includes ALL discs.

Samsung says they vastly underestimated sales of their player. That's why you see it out of stock all the time. I'm sure you never saw it as an end cap at your local Best Buy? That's because why put up an end cap for it, if it sells out almost as fast as they come in?

Also the users who have experienced the format are for the most part very happy with it. The few that aren't is due to them having underpowered HDR TVs. The 2016 models are MUCH better for HDR and with the Vizio P (and M) models being relatively affordable HDR TVs, it makes it easier for people to jump in. HDR TV prices are falling fast.

Frankly I don't see what's not to be optimistic about, but I guess you'd have to see it to appreciate it.

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

It's still about overall $$$. The average customer doesn't even have a home theater or basic surround sound system.

They will need:

A 4K television (if they already have a nice functional television they will not just buy one)
A new reciever
A new UHD player
UHD software
Cables
Surround sound speaker set-up


Unless you're well off then no, you won't be upgrading any time soon.

Your example of The Revenant selling for $25 - why should anyone buy it at that price when they can pay less for the digital HD and play it instantly without forking over thousands of dollars for a totally new system? Again, if you have the money, then it doesn't apply but the average person does not have or want this new format. It's a luxury and it's also being realistic.

I wouldn't mind having a full UHD system but since my current system gives me everything I need I will not conciously upgrade my setup. I may do so as my components begin to die off. I had my region free player die last week and it was replaced a day later with a $99 (shipped) Sony region free player. If my current BD player dies, which is a PS4, then I will get me a new PS4 and not an UHD player.

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

I'm sorry, but you don't need to buy a new receiver or surround sound speaker setup to appreciate HDR on UHD BD. You just need an HDR TV and a UHD BD player. As I recall, those were the same basic requirements (a new TV and player) to enjoy Blu-ray. But by default most upgraded to an HDTV but never felt it necessary to get the BD player because DVD upscaling was 'good enough'.

Remember I never claimed it would do better then DVD, only Blu-ray. Sure the Samsung UHD player costs $400, but the first BD player cost $1000. Prices generally go down fast, probably faster this time around, both on players and UHD TVs.

How long was it before the local Best Buy was stocking 29 copies of a BD? and this is after it already sold out of 9 UHD Revenant copies on the first day? if every Best Buy sold 38 copies of The Revenant UHD than that's about 40,000 copies right there.

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

So a new player and UHD player will run you about 1K or more, right? How many AVERAGE folks have a spare thousand or two lying around to indulge? I wouldn't say most upgraded. Most simply replaced their televisions, because they probably stopped working at some point. I'm also saying that I probably will replace my equipment once it breaks down with 4K enabled gear. We'll wait on that, because I sure as hell won't be doing it all at once. It comes down to priorities for most folks and most folks will allocate their spare cash on the necessities of life - food, clothing, etc. The essentials. Nowadays when a typical person can watch a movie on a stupid phone why would they want to go 4K when they don't have to? I don't think hipsters are eager to upgrade to 4K, because they would rather have a solid vinyl collection. Granted, it's apples and oranges there, but you know what I am saying. Most folks would rather put their money into other things.

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

Of course the Average Joe won't be buying in now, the format just launch a few months ago. What makes you think the prices will still be too high for him to buy in later? As you say, they'll probably replace their TVs out of necessity anyway. Like with Blu-ray, it's going to take time for things to get going, because like then most people don't have HDR TVs. In fact, relatively few people do. But when they do, there will be more consumer interest with HDR than there was with Blu-ray.

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

You don't need to see it to make the prediction of it being a niche product. I haven't seen the new Ferrari, but I can tell you with certainty that it'll be a niche product.

Blu-ray is still a niche after 10 years, why would a 4K format that requires you to buy a new TV (and a large one at that to notice a difference) and player all of a sudden do better - especially as more and more people stream?

The quality of the product only goes so far. Often the best products/formats don't win with the masses. Quality isn't always the determining factor that sways consumers.

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

The amount of people that currently have 1080p TVs is huge and it's pretty much the lowest standard TV you can buy nowadays (with the exception of a few 720p TVs) - and all people had to do was buy a cheap BD player and they'd be all on board with Blu-ray... yet it's still a niche.

It will take a LONG time for even half that amount of people to switch to 4K TVs - especially considering that 1080p TVs will still be sold and will be cheaper. It's a HUGE uphill climb for the format with so many variables that will stand in it's way.

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

I've noticed posters on that "other" forum tend to get a little too enthusiastic/spazzy about BD releases.

I know this is not going to happen anytime in the near future, but the only way the general consumer will buy BD en masse is if DVD goes away and the BD prices come down to where DVD is. As long as DVD exists, the general consumer will more than likely go for that cheaper option. They would still be buying VHS tapes if they could. The only reason they can’t buy tapes is because the studios stopped producing them.

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

That's a poor analogy. A Ferrari, seriously? A new release UHD costs about $5 more than the BD, sometime $10 (the ones that matter, the high sellers, will be around $5 more). It's amazing how certain people can be on a product of which they are ignorant.

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

Yeah they bought the HDTVs (by default or otherwise) but never bought a BD player. This time they'll have a reason to buy a UHD player, since the the upgrade in PQ is finally worth their notice. Streaming UHD HDR takes up a lot of bandwidth and the movies are expensive too.

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

To be fair, there is a lot of negativity over there as well. Those people tend to have huge BD collections and it probably doesn't sit too well that they're buying a second best version of new releases.

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

Sometimes "good enough" is enough for people, which is why UHD BD will be niche. The only way I see it being popular is if makers practically give the stuff away and so far they are not pricing them to move.

$400 for that UHD player? Does it come with any movies? Even standard BD gave us free movies back in the day. It's not like manufacturing costs went up to produced discs.

What about 4K TV makers? If I'm going to pay 1K for one maybe I want some movies for free, too. Where are my incentives to upgrade? I won't be paying over inflated prices for new gear. Better picture quality is my incentive? No thanks. BD is good enough for me.

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

Yes, it's an extreme example... my point is that a better product doesn't always resonate with the masses - especially one that costs more money.
You don't think people will scoff at paying an extra $5 for a movie? Well they're doing it now with BD - instead choosing to save the $5 and buying the DVD instead... even though movies in HD look much nicer than in SD... but most people don't care.

And it's not just the $5... they have to buy a new TV to take advantage of 4K.

Ignorance has nothing to do with it. I bought into SACD in it's early stages because of the fantastic sound quality. However, I wasn't disillusioned into thinking it would be anything more than a niche. Just because I knew and owned the product (and liked it) - didn't make me think everyone would have the same opinion.

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

You keep forgetting the TV they have to buy as well.

And I really don't think the quality jump from BD to UHD will be any more noticeable than from DVD to BD.

Sorry, you're talking like someone who likes the product so much that you're looking at it with rose-coloured glasses. You have to look at it from the perspective of the masses... and the masses were fine with DVD even though BD offered a very noticeable upgrade in quality. Everything points to UHD being a niche - it's pretty much a guarantee at this point.

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

I agree for most people the picture quality of 1080p Blu-ray has met or exceeded needs or expectations.

Can it be better? Of course, there will be 8K, 16K and so on in our lifetimes but most people's living rooms are getting smaller, not bigger.

Let's face it, most of us don't sit cross-legged, three-feet from our 70" TV to really appreciate the finer nuances of 4K.

For the enthusiast? Yes, 4K will be a welcome edition to one's home theatre.

In 2006, the DVD format wasn't broken and there wasn't a mass public yearning for something better as there was in the twilight years of VHS which is why Blu-ray received somewhat of a "meh" reaction when it was introduced. We only really saw Blu-ray gain some traction when players dipped under $100 and we had $5 discs in the Wal-Mart dump-bins.

At the same time I think Blu-ray did rise well-above being a niche format as long as you don't measure it against the level of success DVD had. There are Blu-ray discs for sale at the local Safeway store-that's not a niche.

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

So you we one of those 500 people that bothered for The Dark Knight. (I'm exaggerating... It was actually way less. Worked with the company that hosted it...)

fitprod

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

LaserDisc and DVHS were niche. Not one single store in my area sold them. Blu-rays can be bought in Kmart and corner stores. Just because it never reached DVD's sales numbers does not make it niche.

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

Ok, it may not be a niche product in the traditional sense but the average person still treats it like one. Sure, it's available everywhere now but it's definitely not the #1 choice for the average person to get. Cost is the factor. If the average person sees a DVD and BD next to each other do you think the average person will get the BD over the DVD and pay more for it? They won't. Shit like 4K, 2K, 1080p, etc., mean nothing to the average person. I'm still horrified that folks keep the shitty presets on their TV sets. These people can't even calibrate their sets let alone appreciate or care to know about UHD. Companies need to know how to market and price new technology to the average person.

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

Wow, this is still going on. I think bruceames sold DIVX at Circuit City back in the day ;)

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

Of course they'll have to buy a new TV. When they do, it'll probably be for other reasons, their old set crapped out, they want to go bigger, it's "time" to upgrade, etc. Somehow people are thinking this has to happen right away or never. This is a long term growth cycle, the average consumer won't be buying in for several years yet.

Yes it is far more noticeable. Especially for consumers who sit 10-12 feet away. That's the whole point!

You tell me to look at it from the perspective of the masses and then you say that BD offered a very noticeable upgrade in quality. To them? No, I don't think so. If it did, then BD wouldn't be only taking in a 33% share. I am totally looking at it from their point of view. HDR a is different upgrade, one they will appreciate.

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

Wow, comparing UHD BD to Divx. That's a new low in negativity in this forum. Or maybe not, there's someone else that came to mind. Maybe he'll chime in with a joke too.

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

I'll be buying 4k bluray discs when they start showing up in the local $5 dump bins. ;)

Some of the current computer bd drives can already read these 4K bluray discs. (Though no computer 4k bluray programs yet to view them, both official and unofficial).

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

ROTF....Perhaps you are buying into your own wishful thinking. The belief that this new format will be embraced by a larger audience than DVD or even Blu-ray for that matter betrays any logic. Those still buying DVDs won't upgrade to UHD because they don't care about the higher resolution—DVD has always been good enough to them. People buying DVDs don't care and a large group of Blu-ray collectors care even less. You are whistling past the graveyard. And I am totally looking at it from their point of view! It's DOA period—a tiny niche market at best. :brickwl2:

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

I have a friend who says that from here on out he'll be upgrading to UHD discs for movies that he likes (futureproof). Granted, he makes a lot of money at his job but has yet to fully upgrade to UHD, because he doesn't trust the one UHD player on the market. He's going to wait until other companies get into the picture.

The operative word(s) are: he makes a lot of money. He can afford it.

Re: Let's talk about Ultra HD Blu-ray
 

I never said it would be better than DVD, only that it would have a higher OD marketshare in 10 years time than BD has now (34% after almost 10 years).

Is that really far fetched? After all, the bar is set pretty low.

And I know what a streaming fanboy you are (why don't you just put in your sig "physical media is dead, it just doesn't know it yet, instead of repeating the same old tripe in every post), but it's going to be years before UHD HDR streaming PQ can hope to catch up with UHD BD. And when you get people like Stacey Spears saying that HDR is the biggest advancement in PQ since color television, it only adds to my amusement knowing you guys will be eating your words in a few years and going ape shit over UHD BD.