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Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer

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Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer

Old 01-17-15, 09:16 AM
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Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer

Originally Posted by rocket1312 View Post
Or maybe Mann actually referenced the original answer print when supervising the transfer like the booklet says and the old MGM transfer isn't as correct as some think it is.
That's what this review suggests: http://www.blu-ray.com/movies/Thief-...119278/#Review

Spoiler:
The high-definition transfer for this shorter cut of the film has been struck from a dated source and it clearly shows. Detail and clarity, for instance, fluctuate quite a lot. Image depth is also inconsistent, with a number of the indoor sequences looking notably flat (compare sreencaptures #14 and 24). Grain fluctuations are also easy to see (see screencapture #21). The biggest discrepancies, however, are in the area of color reproduction. Here the variety of nuanced cold colors from the Director's Cut are effectively replaced by a generic mix of warm reds and pinks which destabilized color saturation in a number of different sequences. (See the enhanced pink/reds in screencaptures #27 and 28). In many cases entire color identities are altered as well (see the left side of screencapture #25 where the yellow color of the taxi has been altered). Finally, there are no large damage marks, cuts, or debris, but some tiny specks remain. Though inherited, light shimmer is also visible (see the final shootout). All in all, while some viewers may find this shorter cut of Thief interesting to analyze, in my opinion its basic technical characteristics are unquestionably flawed. (Note: The shorter cut of the film is placed on a second Blu-ray disc, which is also Region-B "locked").
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Old 01-17-15, 10:41 AM
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Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer

Originally Posted by rocket1312 View Post
Or maybe Mann actually referenced the original answer print when supervising the transfer like the booklet says and the old MGM transfer isn't as correct as some think it is. The point is, we don't know why Criterion handled it the way they did. All we know is that the Arrow release at the very least offers a choice, so anyone interested in the film should probably pick up that version.
This.
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Old 01-17-15, 11:31 AM
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Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer

Last year I watched the Blu-ray Criterion Thief and was completely blown away. The picture quality & anamorphic print are gorgeous. For me, this Blu-ray is literally like seeing the movie for the first time (the several other times I saw the film were on the older non-anamorphic DVD). This new release brings the film from merely good status to great status; it just goes to show how much a sub-par, non-anamorphic print can severely mar the quality of an otherwise excellent movie...

Earlier in this thread there was a comparison still from the Blu-ray & HD-TV. I strongly prefer the Blu-ray still, since it's darker & thematically goes along with the way the rest of the film should look...I don't like the HD-TV theatrical cut still as much, since it's too "light" & pink, IMHO. Irregardless of the way the film looked like when it first came out in the theater, that was 30+ years ago and I don't mind some minor modifications, as long as they improve the film & don't change it too much...

As to the film itself, excellent story & acting. And, the Tangerine Dream score is incredible - to the point that I can't imagine the movie having a score by anyone else. The neon lights, rain-soaked night streets, & early '80's sheer urban vibe of the film are all improved by their music.

One of the many scenes that really stood out here was the POV from the top of Caan's car, and the various neon lights/signs that are reflected on the hood as he's driving late at night....

Also enjoyed the music in the Chicago blues bar where Caan meets Tuesday Weld for their date.

Last edited by TheDude; 01-17-15 at 12:02 PM.
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Old 01-17-15, 11:42 AM
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Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer

Originally Posted by trespoochies View Post
Sure....because the Criterion was so substandard....actually I already preordered the UK steelbook, so I'm looking forward to seeing the original coloring against the Criterion version. But I don't see how having the original palate results in "blowing the Criterion out of the water."
Where is the steelbook of which your speak? Is it a store exclusive? Iíve only been able to find the "limited slipcase edition.Ē Did I miss out on it?

I wasnít going to get this, but after seeing the Beaver review with the inclusion of the theatrical cut, I couldnít resist. Plus, since it is limited to 3000, Iím not waiting.

Arrow has become one of my favorite labels lately but Iím a little hesitant to embrace their US releases. Day of Anger preorder is about twice as high on Amazon.com as it is on Amazon.co.uk.
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Old 01-17-15, 11:55 AM
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Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer

My bad, it's a limited slipcase edition, shown here. I thought it was listed as a steelbook when I first ordered it, but that was a few months ago.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/B00Q4VQ04Y
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Old 01-18-15, 04:58 PM
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Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer

Originally Posted by hanshotfirst1138 View Post
Agreed. 99% of the time, these revisions become the defacto version of the movie, for another release to offer the original version in equally high quality is a rare occurrence, so I'm glad to see it happen for once.
All I know is that when I saw the movie in theaters in 1981, it looked much more like the 'theatrical version' than the 'director's cut'.

I'm glad we've got a choice now. Those who want a 2014 look for a 1981 film can eat their hearts out. Those who prefer the more earthy tones, get their wish as well. I just find the 'theatrical' more lifelike, less like I'm looking through a filtered, processed teal lens.

So, we're all happy and can appreciate THIEF for the classic which it is!

Similar story happened with DRACULA '79 -- where the version I saw in the theatre had vibrant, deeply saturated colors and the version we've been given on DVD and Blu-ray has been drained of all color. We were not given a choice.
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Old 01-18-15, 11:19 PM
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Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer

Originally Posted by zyzzle View Post
I just find the 'theatrical' more lifelike, less like I'm looking through a filtered, processed teal lens.
It's a piece of art; what does "lifelike" have to do with it?
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Old 01-19-15, 06:40 AM
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Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer

wtf? Thief was nominated for the Palme d'Or?! Did not know that....
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Old 01-19-15, 05:02 PM
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Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer

Originally Posted by Doctorossi View Post
It's a piece of art; what does "lifelike" have to do with it?
"lifelike" = more pleasing to the eye, specifically to my eyes upon viewing the film.

It's a piece of art sure, but it's also a fine story, and when the filtering technique imposes upon the enjoyment and / or clarity of the story, we have a lessening of the whole.

Peace out... Enjoy THIEF, folks!
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Old 01-19-15, 06:27 PM
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Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer

Originally Posted by Doctorossi View Post
It's a piece of art; what does "lifelike" have to do with it?
I'm going to answer this in the general as I didn't find the color grading on this Bd to be as off putting as the screen caps seemed to imply.

All art is a contrivance. Whether it is obviously contrived (a highly stylized abstract work) or even when it is relaying something objectively and striving for a sense of hyper realism.

When someone says something like "lifelike" I take that to mean the story is being told with a minimum of overt visual stylistic distractions (i.e. cartoonishly over saturated, or colors skewed consistently to a specific points, or contrast jacked up to crush shadow detail and blow out highlights regardless of the circumstance- for just a few examples).
Maybe a easier way to think of it would be the difference between a woman who knows how to use make-up so that it doesn't appear that she is wearing it, compared to pornstar whose make-up is obvious and garish and makes no pretense of trying to look natural. Both women are employing artifice- one is in the service of trying not to distract, while the other is accomplishing just the opposite.

JMO, but that's the way I see it. Too many contemporary movies manipulate the image in unnatural directions, and it's usually obvious and distracting (to me). It doesn't put me into the material as much as distance me from it and keep me watching it at a distance, admiringly.
Clever isn't the same thing as cathartic.
Filmmakers used to strive for the latter, but the last 25 years or so it seems too many want you first to appreciate how clever they are...and by the way, enjoy the story.
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Old 01-19-15, 11:01 PM
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Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer

Originally Posted by zyzzle View Post
"lifelike" = more pleasing to the eye, specifically to my eyes upon viewing the film.
My point is that you can describe it as "lifelike" all you want, but it doesn't mean that what, to you, is a "lifelike" appearance is what was intended by the filmmakers. Not all photography/cinematography aims to be "lifelike"; the point is to capture a mood that enhances the telling of a story and often this means deliberately "unreal" choices.

Originally Posted by zyzzle View Post
It's a piece of art sure, but it's also a fine story, and when the filtering technique imposes upon the enjoyment and / or clarity of the story, we have a lessening of the whole.
It doesn't "impose upon" the enjoyment or clarity of the story when it's part of the telling of the story. The presence of Luke Skywalker doesn't "impose upon" Star Wars; he's part of the story that Star Wars is trying to tell.
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Old 01-19-15, 11:08 PM
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Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer

Originally Posted by Paul_SD View Post
Too many contemporary movies manipulate the image in unnatural directions, and it's usually obvious and distracting (to me). It doesn't put me into the material as much as distance me from it and keep me watching it at a distance, admiringly.
This is a fine and reasonable criticism of modern cinema, but I don't want it impacting my video releases. The qualities you describe, for better or worse, are the choices of filmmakers. I want video releases of films to reproduce those choices as accurately as possible and then we each can individually decide how we feel about any of those individual choices within each film.

No offense to you, but I want my Blu-rays to look the way the filmmakers prefer, not the way you prefer. If you want to manipulate the look, you can adjust your TV. If we're not going to let filmmakers be in charge of their own cinematic expression, what's the point of lending them our eyes and ears in the first place?
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Old 01-19-15, 11:46 PM
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Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer

No offense taken. And I understand the reaction. But there's a bit of confusion. Most of my post was in response to the subject of art in relation to "life-like"...and then my addendum of how heavy stylization impacts how I personally interface with material.

This is one reason I'm not tempted to watch a lot of contemporary content. And yes, directors (or the producer if the director is merely a work for hire craftsman) should be able to release his vision on the Bd for you to see. The problem for me comes when you put 30 years on these directors- 30 years of additional new stimuli, experiences, biases, etc- and then allow them to modify the work that they didn't make (their 70 year old self didn't make the film, their 40 year old self did).
These simply are not the same people- they've changed over the years.
You are no longer getting the film that a 35 year old Michael Mann made under the influence of whatever creative forces he was into at the time. What you are getting now is only some of that with the rest filtered through a prism of what a 70 Michael Mann in 2015 is obsessed with. It's simply not the same film at that point. To what degree it is different is arguable ...but the fact is, it IS altered.

I realize people will disagree with that and default to the directors final word (for the moment) being sacrosanct.
I fall on the side of the original theatrical version being sacrosanct.
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Old 01-20-15, 01:04 AM
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I've lately opined that the way something looks when it's original released theatrically is the way it should look on reproductions and home video releases going forward, and other alterations should be presented as different versions. I once held to the content creator as the "Word of God," but then 1997 happened, and boy did I change my tune on that. However, it is also worth noting that in some cases, the "correct" look for something can be nebulous. After all, prints degrade, people have TVs set differently, etc. That said, based on what I've seen in this thread, I'm inclined to lean more towards Josh's side, as I find it pretty difficult to believe that the teal push was likely part of the aesthetic of the film originally, especially given that various versions of the film under said conditions haven't had it, and its recent popularity in home video "remastering." Either way, 9 times out of 10, it's academic, and whatever the director decides to use for the HD master becomes the de-facto version. In this case, there has actually been a choice for the consumer. It's hardly going to set a precedent, but it's a nice change.
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Old 01-20-15, 01:52 AM
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Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer

I agree that the screencaps don't really reflect how the Criterion looks. I can't say for certain how Thief looked when it first screened, however, I don't think anybody's memory is reliable evidence especially after 30 years, and anybody posting about Thief in HD probably watched the movie on DVD more recently than in a theater. I'm no expert when it comes to this, but I've enjoyed reading the thoughts of the reviewer over at BR.com on this issue:

Originally Posted by pro-bassoonist View Post
At this point, even without the existence of the 4K restoration, it should be beyond obvious to anyone who watches the MGM transfer that it is indeed quite problematic.
Originally Posted by pro-bassoonist View Post
The problem here is that some people are looking at the situation from the wrong angle.

Just about all information that is present at the moment -- visual and factual -- points to the fact that "what was made at the time, in purest form" is in fact restored in the new Director's Cut of the film.

The fact that something was released on DVD in a certain way does not in any way validate the assumption that what ended on it had anything to do with "purest form". On the contrary, even by default -- which means that the existing technology at the time with which masters were produced and then pushed to DVD -- producers were nowhere near close to being capable of replicating the type of qualities you are seeing with Blu-ray now. (Completely exclude theatrical qualities). It is one of many, many reasons why so many DVD transfers have such incredibly similar and flawed characteristics as the prominent pink push.

Some people view DVD as some sort of standard indicating how something was initially screened in theaters. Nothing really could be further from the truth -- from lax control (which was notorious for this type of work) to technology limitations, the very first thing one should do with these releases is exactly the opposite: question them.
It would be really amusing if the people railing against the remaster because of historical inaccuracy were dead wrong about which transfer is closer to the original release. I think it's a valid issue when it comes to home video, I just haven't seen any convincing evidence, just a few people swearing up and down about how they remember it.
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Old 01-20-15, 08:37 AM
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It does sound like both the DVD and the HDTV broadcast also didn't have the teal push, and I don't think the VHS release did either. This also wouldn't be the first time Mann has altered something later on either. Doesn't necessarily mean that the Criterion release is "wrong," but it does mean that the weight of the evidence isn't necessarily on its side .
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Old 01-20-15, 09:27 AM
  #142  
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Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer

Originally Posted by hanshotfirst1138 View Post
This also wouldn't be the first time Mann has altered something later on either. Doesn't necessarily mean that the Criterion release is "wrong," but it does mean that the weight of the evidence isn't necessarily on its side .
This also wouldn't be the first time that people on the internet were wrong. I think Criterion and Mann using the original answer print for color reference is pretty strong evidence.
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Old 01-20-15, 05:57 PM
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Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer

Originally Posted by Paul_SD View Post
This is one reason I'm not tempted to watch a lot of contemporary content. And yes, directors (or the producer if the director is merely a work for hire craftsman) should be able to release his vision on the Bd for you to see. The problem for me comes when you put 30 years on these directors- 30 years of additional new stimuli, experiences, biases, etc- and then allow them to modify the work that they didn't make (their 70 year old self didn't make the film, their 40 year old self did).
These simply are not the same people- they've changed over the years.
You are no longer getting the film that a 35 year old Michael Mann made under the influence of whatever creative forces he was into at the time. What you are getting now is only some of that with the rest filtered through a prism of what a 70 Michael Mann in 2015 is obsessed with. It's simply not the same film at that point. To what degree it is different is arguable ...but the fact is, it IS altered.

I realize people will disagree with that and default to the directors final word (for the moment) being sacrosanct.
I fall on the side of the original theatrical version being sacrosanct.
Very well expressed, and I think this is the crux of the matter, and also the elephant in the room that many folks seem to be ignoring.

I think film should not be a liquid medium... Once a film is released to theatres, it should be "in the can" and that version (original color-timing) should be the version preserved and released over the years. It's sheer revisionist history and egoism not to.

Now, the beauty of home video is that directors, producers, and the like should be able to revisit their films, augment them, etc. BUT, what many are losing sight of is that it becomes modification of film history when you release a 'definitive' or 'director's cut' 30 years later -- perhaps after reflection, maturity, new biases -- and refuse to preserve the original theatrical presentation.

That is my beef. Sure, tinker all you want, Mr. Mann, Mr. Lucas, Mr. Friedkin, but for God's sake, preserve the original theatrical versions (OCNs) for sake of historical accuracy! It may be, that in 20 years, Mr. Mann will release a new definitive version of THIEF in a neon-purple push, but at least now, we'll have a preservation of the 1981 natural colors thanks to Arrow's efforts.
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Old 01-26-15, 03:46 PM
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Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer

Originally Posted by zyzzle View Post

Similar story happened with DRACULA '79 -- where the version I saw in the theatre had vibrant, deeply saturated colors and the version we've been given on DVD and Blu-ray has been drained of all color. We were not given a choice.
Did you see it in the theatre right before you watched the DVD?
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Old 01-27-15, 09:21 AM
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Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer

Originally Posted by DaveyJoe View Post
This also wouldn't be the first time that people on the internet were wrong. I think Criterion and Mann using the original answer print for color reference is pretty strong evidence.
Michael Mann says that he used the original answer print for color reference on Thief.

Michael Mann also says that he never made any changes to Heat, and yet the Blu-ray has been re-edited to remove a couple lines of Al Pacino's dialogue.

http://collider.com/michael-mann-bla...urt-interview/

You're putting an awful lot of faith in statements made by a man who's proven many times over the years to be an unreliable source of information about his own movies.

If you read that entire interview in Collider, it's pretty clear that Mann's attitude is that movies are a fluid medium and are never "finished." He says flat-out that anytime he rewatches an old movie and sees something he doesn't like anymore, he just goes ahead and "fixes" it. He doesn't have any concern whatsoever about preserving the original version of a film.
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Old 01-27-15, 09:32 AM
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Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer

Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post
If you read that entire interview in Collider, it's pretty clear that Mann's attitude is that movies are a fluid medium and are never "finished." He says flat-out that anytime he rewatches an old movie and sees something he doesn't like anymore, he just goes ahead and "fixes" it. He doesn't have any concern whatsoever about preserving the original version of a film.

Sorry to sidetrack but aren't most director's like that? For instance, after Batman was released theatrically, Tim Burton had a brief moment during a foot chase removed. It was just after Batman and Vicky Vale escaped the art museum. A little girl saw Batman and asked "is it Halloween". While watching a theatrical presentation of the movie, Burton felt that bit ruined the flow of the chase sequence so he had it cut and all theatrical prints replaced. As far as I know, that bit of footage has since never even been seen. Not even so much as deleted scene.

I'm sure that there are other directors that have done the same. Heck, wasn't Stanley Kubrick also notorious for doing things like that?
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Old 01-27-15, 10:05 AM
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Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer

I think by the time he had power, his theatrical cut... was the only cut that mattered when he was alive. Framing could be another thing though...
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Old 01-27-15, 12:51 PM
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Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer

Originally Posted by RocShemp View Post
Sorry to sidetrack but aren't most director's like that?
I would not say "most" directors. Some, yes, but others understand the importance of preserving a movie as it was originally completed. With the exception of 'New York, New York', Martin Scorsese has refused to alter or revise his older movies, even ones like Gangs of New York that he's expressed disappointment with. Other directors will make both the old theatrical version and new Director's Cut available simultaneously.
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Old 01-27-15, 04:17 PM
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Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer

Originally Posted by RocShemp View Post
Sorry to sidetrack but aren't most director's like that? For instance, after Batman was released theatrically, Tim Burton had a brief moment during a foot chase removed. It was just after Batman and Vicky Vale escaped the art museum. A little girl saw Batman and asked "is it Halloween". While watching a theatrical presentation of the movie, Burton felt that bit ruined the flow of the chase sequence so he had it cut and all theatrical prints replaced. As far as I know, that bit of footage has since never even been seen.
It is seen briefly in the making of documentary on the DVD/Blu-Ray. I knew the scene existed as a little kid because it was on one of the 2nd Series trading cards that was released in 1990.
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Old 01-27-15, 04:47 PM
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Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer

Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post
Michael Mann says that he used the original answer print for color reference on Thief.

Michael Mann also says that he never made any changes to Heat, and yet the Blu-ray has been re-edited to remove a couple lines of Al Pacino's dialogue.

http://collider.com/michael-mann-bla...urt-interview/

You're putting an awful lot of faith in statements made by a man who's proven many times over the years to be an unreliable source of information about his own movies.

If you read that entire interview in Collider, it's pretty clear that Mann's attitude is that movies are a fluid medium and are never "finished." He says flat-out that anytime he rewatches an old movie and sees something he doesn't like anymore, he just goes ahead and "fixes" it. He doesn't have any concern whatsoever about preserving the original version of a film.
When Scanners was released, Criterion came out and said that they used the colors Cronenberg 'prefers now.' So I believe them when they say they used the answer print for color reference on Thief. I am bugged that he changed Heat, I loved that line about sifting through the detritus.
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