Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer
 

Of course not. But to remember the colors completely and accurately years earlier? Yes, I think many would call BS on that one.

And as mentioned before, given the fact that each theater can be different, even week to week, a perfect memory would still only relate to that theater, that day.

Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer
 

And just because 'movies weren't teal in the 80s' doesn't mean Thief wasn't unique in its color timing. It was innovative with its synth soundtrack, I don't see why the same couldn't be possible for the look of the film. I know there's internet backlash against the T&O color timing that has become popular recently, but that doesn't mean all films had natural colors in previous decades. Besides, the Thief Criterion isn't T&O anyway. We know Criterion used the answer print for reference, we don't know what was done for home video/broadcast versions of the film, it's just two different sides making assumptions, and giving different people the benefit of the doubt.

Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer
 

To the extent that it is colored now, something like that in the marketplace would have left a distinct impression. It would have looked so unlike anything else in the theaters in that era, that people would have been commenting on it in reviews and articles about the film- specifically in regards to color, not just that it looked 'different'.

Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer
 

This scene:

http://images3.static-bluray.com/reviews/9239_13.jpg

Looked more like this on my setup:

http://i449.photobucket.com/albums/q...ps92b73ca6.jpg

Watched my copy last night. I have the exact same reaction as you did. And even if it was just simply a screen shot botch job, the same person still chose to publish those horribly incorrect screen shots. Really makes a person go hmmmmm.... And then the "experts" looking at those incorrect screen shots and stating for a fact that the notes within the Blu-ray are a lie. -screwy-

Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer
 

Why? It wouldn't be the first movie with a stylized color palette. I watched the Castle of Fu Manchu last night and the colors were all over the place, yes, even teal.

Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer
 

There's production design that emphasizes certain color schemes and then there is a wholesale processing of the image that stylizes everything artificially into a narrow range of color.
The former, along with the use of filters and other, 'of the moment' effects, was more common back in the day when Thief was made. The latter is much more common now.

Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer
 

Do you think that this production still, uploaded in 2011 might suggest that Michael Mann was going for this look for the movie:

http://www.imdb.com/media/rm21557235...mi_mi_all_sf_2

Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer
 

I need to watch my copy of Thief before I comment on that film specifically. I may actually walk away with a different impression having seen the whole thing rather than just spot checking it.
I have a copy of the book 1001 Movie You Must See, and there are a ridiculous amount of photos in there that are (seriously) processed to teal & orange. Publicity photos of films that never looked anything like that and still don't- so photos, especially ones published (or uploaded) in the last decade aren't going to be a good indicator to me.
I would put more stock in the film's original trailer...and even those aren't always on the mark- though I think they are usually closer than people give them credit for being.

Trailers From Hell has Thief up if anyone is interested in seeing it.

Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer
 

I posted the trailer on here and the fucking BD itself has the trailer.

Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer
 

Like I said earlier, the screen shots really don't represent the BD accurately. Normally I feel like a movie has been pushed too far with one color when you see it seep into the blacks, but the blacks and skin tones on Thief both look natural. It really is a great looking disk.

Re: Criterion releases on Blu-Rays, Part II
 

Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer
 

<iframe width="480" height="360" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/RBmg1euOQA4" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer
 

Finally watched it last night and my experience mirrored yours exactly.

Josh may remember this from the theater back in '81, the way I remember Alien and Raiders. He may have some specific scenes in mind where colors have been shifted. I never saw it back then so I can't even pretend to know exactly how close this is to that.
However
Nothing I'm seeing in this disc is inconsistent with a movie made in 1981.
The screenshots appear to be, but the actually disc? No, not at all imo.
In fact, I think it's pretty spot on to the trailer too. There are a range of colors here, and Blues and yellows run a full gamut. And the 'teal' that is there is there in the trailer too. Even scenes (like the diner interior) where I thought it might be pushing it still contained, in other shots or angles, natural earth tones.

This is the second time in as many weeks that screenshots didn't gibe with the experience of watching the disc - the other being the Arrow Phantom Of The Paradise.

and BTW, that scene with the judge was pretty funny.

Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer
 

:thumbsup: People are experiencing something similar with Scanners. Most of the controversy over that transfer stems from one screenshot that has a green tint to it. When people watched the actual disk they realized that it's not that green on their setup, the room has green walls, and the character is staring at a green CRT monitor. The rest of the movie looks fine. It may not be wise to dismiss these transfers based on a single screen shot.

Did you enjoy the movie?

Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer
 

You strike me as the sort of person who believes that the original Star Wars trilogy always had CGI aliens and crap in them, and those of us who claim otherwise just don't remember the movies properly.

Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer
 

Josh, I assume you've actually watched the disc in full and still have the issues you do so I'm curious if you can point out a couple scenes where the grading is especially off to you and try to describe how it should have looked. Or if not scenes, then the color of clothing or objects that strike you as being skewed off here.

I could easily do this for Alien and can give you an example if you'd like.

Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer
 

Scanners didn't look overly green to me.

Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer
 

What? Do people actually argue that? The changes made with the Star Wars special editions were well documented, and they are quite obvious while watching. Anyway, this is another comment which adds nothing to the conversation, I don't understand why you can't discuss this without being insulting or condescending. You're coming from the perspective of age and wisdom but your comments are borderline childish at times.

I was born in 1985, so it was impossible for me to see Thief upon its release. That means when it comes to the original intended look of the film I can believe:

1. the director, Michael Mann
2. people on the internet

I'm not here telling anybody they are wrong, or insulting anybody, but I am choosing to give the benefit of the doubt to the first option, and arguing that this specific case may not be as open-and-shut as some would have you believe.

What was done to Alien? I know Cameron changed the colors for the Aliens BluRay, I didn't know Alien was altered. I recently purchased both BluRays, but haven't had a chance to watch them yet.

This is the screenshot that caused the uproar:

http://images2.static-bluray.com/reviews/10130_16.jpg

I'm assuming it looked fine while watching the movie, I haven't watched it yet. Scanners was sold out at my local B&N so I had them order it for me.

Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer
 

Yeah, the whole movie does not look like that screenshot.

Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer
 

Scott manipulated the image in several subtle but substantial ways.
In terms of colors, he upped the saturation and shifted neutral or slightly warmer greys to a more vivid blue and skewed all or most of those blues to the greener end (teal) and away from violet. I see this shift in the sets (especially in the alien ship) and in some of the crew uniforms.

He also crushed black levels and blew out some highlights to make the picture "pop" more (which appears to be the opposite of what Cronenberg did with the Criterion Scanners going by the caps).

These should give you an idea of how they were originally vs how they are on the Bd (top is Bd, bottom dials back cyan and shifts it away from green)
http://i60.tinypic.com/1zx6wpc.jpg
http://i61.tinypic.com/x3tuop.jpg

this is a quote from the digital bits review of the '99 dvd release, whose image looks more like the bottom caps above.
I've seen the film multiple times in it's original release and consistently since on home video. The bd is full of piercing, false notes for me in terms of color and gamma. Viewers without much history with it OTOH aren't likely to notice or care and will probably even like the new coloring. But it has definitely been dialed away from it's original, more subdued organic look to something more garishly stylized.

I don't think that I've EVER heard that argument from anybody. Lucas wants that to happen in a sort of twisted, Orwellian way, but even he has not exactly stated that out right, he has said "these are the films that I originally intended to make." There are fans who stand by his viewpoint and believe that they represent what he originally wanted the films to be, but I don't think anyone ever believe that they were that way originally, especially will exception amount of controversy which is found about that particular topic.

Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer
 

Alright, I decided to re-watch my Blu of the film tonight, and must say in all fairness that the teal is only truly noticeable in a few indoor scenes. The caliber of the film is so good that I rapidly got caught up in the masterful work on display and 'dealt with' the modern color timing. It was still very annoying, but for the most part outdoor scenes are as I remembered, bright and colorful from my 1981 theater viewing. I still object strongly as to why Mann felt the need to tinker with it to make it look more modern (achromatic) in some of the final indoor scenes, eg. the final showdown, the car dealership indoor scenes, etc). Ironically, the courtroom scene looked "almost" natural compared to some of those final scenes. At least on my calibrated display, that scene did not look very teal... So, I concur that some of the posted screenshots, particularly that scene, did not correspond to the degree of tealization that I saw on my display.

Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer
 

Personally the difference was jarring; the opening sequence, with the rain and keyhole sequence being more visible, changed the feel of the introduction to Frank.

I am happy that they did use the director's cut with the beautifully shot dock scene with Willie Dixon.

Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer
 

I see you have switched from moving goal posts to building straw men. And outright ridiculous ones at that. Bravo.

*crickets*

Can't say I'm surprised.

Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer
 

So I just finished watching the BD and it was great. Those screencaps are garbage and if you're the type of person that goes by screencaps then you're mental. I will say that the opening sequence that lead up to Frank's character, as was mentioned above, did have a bit of a teal push, but it was not intrusive whatsoever. If you think the sky is falling due to this then you need to get laid. Now speaking on the film itself, wow, what a fucking great film! Caan was a badass and that cast! I enjoyed those jumpcuts he used when people got blasted on - it reminded me of Manhunter.

Well duh, you couldn't tell that from my other posts ;)?

Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer
 

Pretty much agree that so many get worked up over the screencaps and not watch the actual movie which never really looks like them. Stunning movie on blu.

Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer
 

Finally go around to watching this blu. On my 42" LCD setup the movie did NOT look like thishttp://images3.static-bluray.com/reviews/9239_13.jpg

I was amazed at how beautiful the picture looked. Great job Criterion.

Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer
 

I'm convinced.

Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer
 

I watched Scanners yesterday. It looked good, not like the cap from Blu-ray.com that was posted in this thread.

...and people are saying that Thief doesn't look like the cap posted...also from Blu-Ray.com. Maybe there are just some screen-capping issues there? The same person did both reviews, so maybe they're doing it wrong?

I'll watch Thief in the next day or so to check out the disk for myself.

Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer
 

I watched Thief last night. Excellent movie. Crazy that Michael Mann did so well on his debut, and how much of the style in his later flicks is evident here.
The colours looked great on my setup. I haven't calibrated my projector in quite awhile, but I barely noticed any scenes that looked overly teal to my eyes, if at all. Even the courtroom scene looked quite natural to me.

Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer
 

I'm sure that a little mouse here will be ever-so-thrilled to see me reopen this thread.

I watched the Thief Blu-ray when it was first released and noticed the teal push right away, but because I wasn't reviewing the disc I didn't take specific notes on it. I finally had a couple of free hours this weekend and watched the whole movie from beginning to end on my calibrated projector.

Some of the screencaps that were posted previously (were they all from blu-ray.com?) are exaggerated, especially the courtroom shot you can see a few posts up from this one. There is teal in that scene, but it's nowhere near as bad as that screencap. Whoever took the screencap obviously f***ed it up. Given the source, that shouldn't be too surprising.

Nevertheless, there is a teal bias throughout the movie. And contrary to what a couple of people said, it's not just in the indoor scenes. It's frequently visible outdoors as well, such as the now teal-walled tires of James Caan's car. Pretty much any white (eyes, teeth, paper, etc.) will have a teal tinge.

While this is not the worst teal-and-orange revision I've seen of an old movie, it does not look right to me at all. Movies simply weren't photographed this way in the 1980s. The color grading is very digital and unnatural, in the style of modern DI movies. Even if Michael Mann had wanted the movie to look this way in 1981, I can't imagine how he would have done it with the technology of the time. Any sort of camera filter or photochemical color timing would have looked different than what we have here.

In terms of detail and grain management (present but not obstrusive), the disc looks far better than any previous video copy of the film, but the colors really bother me.

Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer
 

Glad you finally objectively watched the Criterion THIEF all the way through. After my initial very angry feelings, I sat down and watched it just as you did, and feel quite the same way and echo your sentiments.. It looks *digital*- too much like a 2014 "product" when it should be an original 1981 masterpiece. This is the best we, the paying customers will get. So, I've got to go with it... anachronistic as it is.

A similar 'revision' is seen in the Australian masterpiece WAKE IN FRIGHT, recently released by the BFI. Teal city. I was most reminded of that when I watched THIEF... in terms of how much better the restoration could, and should have, been.

Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer
 

I own the Australian Blu-ray of Wake in Fright. Is that transfer different than the one you are talking about?

Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer
 

No, the Australian transfer is from the same master (= a digitally tweaked, grain-removed, color-timing-changed) as the other two Blu releases. The Aussie disc was the first released, I believe, while the US and UK (Master of Cinema) blus followed. They all look the same, ie, the same 'modern' 2014 DV look, no film grain, and very dubious color-timing... The UK release is the most technically robust of the three, but that is for moot when you consider the source material being that hideously over-digitized master...

Re: Criterion releases on Blu-Rays, Part II
 

That was one of the most hideous Blu-Ray transfers I've ever seen. Made all the worst by that horrible subtitle job Sony did.

Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer
 

Well, it looks like Arrow's 2015 release of THIEF blows Criterion's out of the water... According to DVDBeaver's new review of the Arrow limited edition Blu, "Arrow ecclipses Criterion on every front." All that obsequious, kowtowing to the director's wishes has been proven the bullshit that it always was...

Arrow has righted a wrong (shame on Criterion!) and set the record right with the definitive release of THIEF on Blu-ray. We can all rest easy now.

Goddamn I love being region-free sometimes :D. It's nice when a first-world problem gets solved ;).

Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer
 

Sure....because the Criterion was so substandard....actually I already preordered the UK steelbook, so I'm looking forward to seeing the original coloring against the Criterion version. But I don't see how having the original palate results in "blowing the Criterion out of the water."

Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer
 

I'd say anytime a company offers the original, unrevised version of a film along side the director/studio preferred revisionist version then it absolutely does blow a competing release only containing a revised version out of the water.
A few different extras likely wouldn't matter to me. The original theatrical version of the film, however? That is a major deal.