Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer
Originally Posted by Solid Snake
(Post 12162487)
Shit. I bought Thief cuz of the sale. I knew wtf was done to it. Technically speaking, this is a gorgeous image.
Can't grasp why Mann believes EVEN when using the negative as a color reference... That changing color is beneficial to the film. Fucking great film though. Jesus. It's so goddamn good. |
Re: Criterion releases on Blu-Rays, Part II
Originally Posted by DaveyJoe
(Post 12162944)
The original 35 mm answer print was used for color reference. It's likely that Thief was handled poorly for broadcast/home video releases that probably weren't supervised by Michael Mann and probably didn't have access to the original print for reference. Back then there wasn't a demand to recreate accuracy to theatrical experience, they wanted to make movies look good on broadcast/DVD which were different technologies with limitations different from film projection. We just got used to those versions that featured boosted contrast and pushed reds, and assume that they are "correct."
This would not be the first time that a filmmaker or studio has claimed to use an original answer print (that no one in the public will ever be allowed to see) as a color reference as an excuse to completely digitally revise the visual look of a movie to something it never looked like before. Bram Stoker's Dracula is one of the more notorious examples of that. |
Re: Criterion releases on Blu-Rays, Part II
Originally Posted by Josh Z
(Post 12163163)
The teal color grading fad is not something that existed in 1981. Not in theaters. Not anywhere. The ubiquity of teal started with the advent of the Digital Intermediate process in the early 2000s.
This would not be the first time that a filmmaker or studio has claimed to use an original answer print (that no one in the public will ever be allowed to see) as a color reference as an excuse to completely digitally revise the visual look of a movie to something it never looked like before. Bram Stoker's Dracula is one of the more notorious examples of that. If the director is supervising a transfer from an original answer print, I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt over how his film was originally supposed to look rather than assume the earlier home video releases "got it right." I don't buy the argument that 'films didn't look like this in the 80s!" because I've seen plenty of films with stylized color timing dating back to the 70s. All of the evidence points to Criterion Collection version of Thief being the closest to the desired color timing. This is the broadcast version of Thief: http://imageshack.us/a/img841/5083/thief07.jpg This is the Criterion: http://images3.static-bluray.com/reviews/9239_13.jpg The latter looks more like one of Mann's crime movies, which all have stylized looks. In the first image that guy looks like me after a day at the beach. Spoiler:
Spoiler:
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Re: Criterion releases on Blu-Rays, Part II
I thought Thief was gorgeously restored as well on the Criterion, that was the best part of the movie for me. Unfortunately, when it was said and done, the movie just did not do it for me. The ending completely made me shake my head, especially when it had been pretty good until that point.
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Re: Criterion releases on Blu-Rays, Part II
Originally Posted by DaveyJoe
(Post 12163189)
The latter looks more like one of Mann's crime movies, which all have stylized looks.
http://www.the-medium-is-not-enough....WillGun-tm.jpg |
Re: Criterion releases on Blu-Rays, Part II
Originally Posted by inri222
(Post 12163315)
http://www.the-medium-is-not-enough....terBlue-tm.jpg
http://www.the-medium-is-not-enough....WillGun-tm.jpg |
Re: Criterion releases on Blu-Rays, Part II
Originally Posted by DaveyJoe
(Post 12163189)
Michael Mann's crime movies are never vivid or colorful, when I look at the broadcast version of Thief where people had pink skin, that doesn't look like a Michael Mann movie to me.
From theater to theater a projectionist could botch the color or framing and who knows what prints were used for home video releases. A projectionist could screw up the framing, sure. He could turn the lamp down too low and make the whole thing look dim. But he can't alter the colors on the film strip. If the director is supervising a transfer from an original answer print, I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt over how his film was originally supposed to look rather than assume the earlier home video releases "got it right." This is the guy you're counting on to accurately preserve the original photographic intention? I don't buy the argument that 'films didn't look like this in the 80s!" because I've seen plenty of films with stylized color timing dating back to the 70s. All of the evidence points to Criterion Collection version of Thief being the closest to the desired color timing. The latter looks more like one of Mann's crime movies, which all have stylized looks. That shot of the judge with the teal face and the teal Abraham Lincoln portrait behind him looks absolutely godawful to me. |
Re: Criterion releases on Blu-Rays, Part II
Originally Posted by Josh Z
(Post 12163516)
I'm not saying that the broadcast version is correct either. However, the broadcast version being too pink does not mean that the teal-and-orange version automatically must be correct. They are both wrong, just in different ways.
Originally Posted by Josh Z
(Post 12163516)
Michael Mann has an extensive history of continually tinkering with and changing his old movies after-the-fact. Most of his movies (including Thief) are only available on home video in "Director's Cut" versions with the original theatrical cuts tossed in the trash can.
This is the guy you're counting on to accurately preserve the original photographic intention?
Originally Posted by Josh Z
(Post 12163516)
Were any of them teal-and-orange? No, not a single one.
Originally Posted by Josh Z
(Post 12163516)
You're basing this on the Blu-ray editions of Mann's other films, which were also tealified years after-the-fact.
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Re: Criterion releases on Blu-Rays, Part II
That's thing that gets me. Exterior day shots...are not messed with. They look amazing. BUT once you get into an interior or night shot it gets that "color issue" in it.
Who the fuck saw this when it was released? I saw the DVD and it looked fine. Sure it wasn't perfect but it seemed like it was mostly in the intent that was intended to be seen. Not perfect but it looked like it was supposed to mostly be like that. Not a barometer for truth but even on the CC BD..the trailer for this film doens't have color scheme that the BD gives the film. That didn't happen back in the day. It MAY happen like that now cuz we have that ability but not in that era. <iframe width="640" height="480" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/keET6waBJHk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe> Mann is known to change up his films on home video. I'm willing to believe that Mann concreted his color schemes later on but I don't think his visual in color extended to Thief. |
Re: Criterion releases on Blu-Rays, Part II
Of course we see discrepancies in color timing when it comes to trailers versus the final film version all the time. They're often made before post production is complete, I don't know if that was the case when Thief was made, but it may not be definitive proof. I just don't know why Mann and Criterion would use the original answer print specifically as a color reference if Mann was just going to use whatever the hell color timing he felt like.
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Re: Criterion releases on Blu-Rays, Part II
well CC is at the whim of Mann. Or to be exact... they allow themselves to be at the whim of the filmmakers they work with.
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Re: Criterion releases on Blu-Rays, Part II
All I've gathered from this discussion is that I really need to watch Thief. Soon.
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Re: Criterion releases on Blu-Rays, Part II
Originally Posted by kefrank
(Post 12163288)
Obviously a different director, but that's how I feel about another film that Criterion released: The Game. I have no desire to see it again because of the ending.
Originally Posted by Kedrix
(Post 12163202)
I thought Thief was gorgeously restored as well on the Criterion, that was the best part of the movie for me. Unfortunately, when it was said and done, the movie just did not do it for me. The ending completely made me shake my head, especially when it had been pretty good until that point.
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Re: Criterion releases on Blu-Rays, Part II
Originally Posted by Solid Snake
(Post 12163635)
well CC is at the whim of Mann. Or to be exact... they allow themselves to be at the whim of the filmmakers they work with.
Originally Posted by Dan
(Post 12163639)
All I've gathered from this discussion is that I really need to watch Thief. Soon.
Originally Posted by Solid Snake
(Post 12163647)
Really? I thought it was awesome. Very manly man of an ending.
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Re: Criterion releases on Blu-Rays, Part II
Originally Posted by Solid Snake;12163647 regarding Thief's Ending
Really? I thought it was awesome. Very manly man of an ending. Very manly man ending? Absolutely. Did it make sense in the context of the movie? In my opinion, absolutely not. Spoiler:
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Re: Criterion releases on Blu-Rays, Part II
Originally Posted by Kedrix
(Post 12163660)
Very manly man ending? Absolutely. Did it make sense in the context of the movie? In my opinion, absolutely not.
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
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Re: Criterion releases on Blu-Rays, Part II
Yep. Frank fucked himself over and now he had people he loved at risk. Made sense.
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Re: Criterion releases on Blu-Rays, Part II
Originally Posted by DaveyJoe
(Post 12163681)
Spoiler:
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Re: Criterion releases on Blu-Rays, Part II
Originally Posted by DaveyJoe
(Post 12163530)
What is the correct color timing, and how do you know?
How do I know? Because I was alive and studying movies in the 1980s, and have enough knowledge of filmmaking and film history to recognize that the teal-and-orange fad started much later. I was there when teal-and-orange started to overtake Hollywood. That didn't occur in the 1980s. It happened when Digital Intermediates came on the scene in the early 2000s, and it has unfortunately stuck around ever since. Unlike many people, I am also able to discern the difference between the colors blue and teal. Even many prominent filmmakers cannot. In his commentary track on The Town, Ben Affleck talks about wanting to give the photography a blue overcast. The color blue does not appear anywhere in that film. It's all teal, teal, teal. When the characters drive past Boston Harbor, the water is bright teal like the goddamn Caribbean. It's laughable. Yes, unless Donald Thurin comes out and says Mann changed the colors from their original vision in 1981, Michael Mann is the best person to judge how the film was supposed to look upon release. Filmmakers are not gods. They are not infallible. They're just people. Sometimes they screw up and make bad decisions. The danger of the digital toolkits available today is that they allow filmmakers to very easily make wholesale changes to their old movies decades after the fact. When Michael Mann supervised the Blu-ray color grading for Thief, he didn't base the colors on how he photographed the movie in 1981. He graded it how he thinks the movie should look today, based on his personal preferences thirty years removed. Mann also made new changes to the editing, beyond those from the last home video "Director's Cut." He treated the Blu-ray as his opportunity to conform the film to his current whims, as a director thirty years older than when he originally made it. Like George Lucas, Michael Mann is an obsessive tinkerer. In his mind, his movies are never "done," and constantly need new updates to bring them in line with his current feelings about them. Every time Mann supervises a new home video release of one of his films, he makes changes to it. The cut of Heat available on Blu-ray is not the theatrical cut. Mann removed a few lines of Al Pacino's dialogue, because he decided with a re-viewing that he didn't like them anymore. I've lost count of how many different versions of Manhunter there are. Even copies labeled the "Theatrical Cut" are not really the actual theatrical cut. In one of his commentary tracks for that movie, Mann talks about his favorite line of dialogue, apparently unaware that he cut that line from the version of the movie he was watching. He's futzed with the movie so many times he can't even remember what he did to it. So, yeah, when Michael Mann says that the colors on the Thief Blu-ray are exactly what the movie was supposed to look like in 1981, I have to take that with a massive grain of salt the size of a boulder. |
Re: Criterion releases on Blu-Rays, Part II
Originally Posted by DaveyJoe
(Post 12163681)
Spoiler:
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Re: Criterion releases on Blu-Rays, Part II
Originally Posted by DaveyJoe
(Post 12163530)
Yes, unless Donald Thurin comes out and says Mann changed the colors from their original vision in 1981, Michael Mann is the best person to judge how the film was supposed to look upon release.
Just as fun are the people that will claim they remember exactly how it was in the theater decades ago. Nevermind that even accepting the possiblity of a pefect photographic memory, ever theater viewing can be vastly different based on the choices or mistakes made by the theater. |
Re: Criterion releases on Blu-Rays, Part II
Originally Posted by Josh Z
(Post 12164078)
The correct color timing is somewhere in between the two extremes of the pink broadcast version and the teal Blu-ray version.
How do I know? Because I was alive and studying movies in the 1980s, and have enough knowledge of filmmaking and film history to recognize that the teal-and-orange fad started much later. I was there when teal-and-orange started to overtake Hollywood. That didn't occur in the 1980s. It happened when Digital Intermediates came on the scene in the early 2000s, and it has unfortunately stuck around ever since.
Originally Posted by Josh Z
(Post 12164078)
One might have assumed that William Friedkin was the best person to judge how The French Connection was supposed to look upon release. Yet when he supervised the first Blu-ray release of that film, William Friedkin tinted the whole movie purple. Because William Friedkin lost his f-ing marbles sometime between the time he made The French Connection and the present day.
Originally Posted by Josh Z
(Post 12164078)
Filmmakers are not gods. They are not infallible. They're just people. Sometimes they screw up and make bad decisions.
Originally Posted by Josh Z
(Post 12164078)
Mann also made new changes to the editing, beyond those from the last home video "Director's Cut." He treated the Blu-ray as his opportunity to conform the film to his current whims, as a director thirty years older than when he originally made it.
Originally Posted by Kedrix
(Post 12164247)
I guess I'm just not feeling it. Maybe it's because I grew up in the suburbs ;)
Spoiler:
Originally Posted by hdnmickey
(Post 12164258)
Ya think? But no, we're to accept as fact the opinion of the internet experts that state repeatedly they know better. THEY are the expert, and have spoken, so it must be true.
Just as fun are the people that will claim they remember exactly how it was in the theater decades ago. Nevermind that even accepting the possiblity of a pefect photographic memory, ever theater viewing can be vastly different based on the choices or mistakes made by the theater. |
Re: Criterion releases on Blu-Rays, Part II
Are you're saying it was technically impossible for Thief to look like that in 1981?
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Re: Criterion releases on Blu-Rays, Part II
Originally Posted by DaveyJoe
(Post 12164347)
Are you're saying it was technically impossible for Thief to look like that in 1981?
Technically impossible? I suppose, technically, Michael Mann could have tinted the entire movie bright flourescent green if he'd wanted. But is it really likely that he would have done that? Eventually, this teal-and-orange fad will die off, and some other color grading fad will take its place. Perhaps in 2030, filmmakers will all makes movies in bright fuchsia and yellow. Michael Mann will retroactively go back and "update" all of his old movies to the new, modern fuchsia-and-yellow coloring, and insist that this is what they've always looked like. And you'll swallow his story whole, and dismissively roll your eyes at anyone who complains. Because the director is a god, and if he says that his movie was always fuchsia-and-yellow, no one is ever allowed to question his wisdom. |
Re: Criterion releases on Blu-Rays, Part II
Originally Posted by hdnmickey
(Post 12164397)
Of course I do/am. Rather than admit yoru first shot was off you move the goal so your shot will be on target. Comparing knowing if a B&W film changed to color is a back up to your claim you KNOW your opinion on Thief is fact? = Moving the goal posts to both endlines! :lol:
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Re: Criterion releases on Blu-Rays, Part II
Originally Posted by Randy Miller III
(Post 12164422)
Modern color, take 2: now with T&O, black crush, and a hint of Abrams!
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Re: Criterion releases on Blu-Rays, Part II
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Re: Criterion releases on Blu-Rays, Part II
Originally Posted by DaveyJoe
(Post 12163189)
This is the broadcast version of Thief:
http://imageshack.us/a/img841/5083/thief07.jpg This is the Criterion: http://images3.static-bluray.com/reviews/9239_13.jpg The broadcast version has a red push that has turned the judge's face pink. That's clearly incorrect. However, it also has a range of other colors in the shot: the brown in the wood paneling, the gray in the Lincoln portrait, the silver in the microphone, the red, white and blue in the flag, etc. If the entire shot originally had a heavy teal tint, where did those other colors come from? Applying a red push in the old video transfer would not invent those other colors from scratch. The Blu-ray version has no color variety. Everything is smothered in teal. The judge's face is tinted teal. The wall is tinted teal. The Lincoln portrait is tinted teal. The microphone and flag are tinted teal. Any other colors are drowned out by teal. If we're to believe that this scene was always tinted teal, those other colors in the broadcast transfer could not have been created out of thin air. They had to come from somewhere. That's not something the video transfer operator could have done by accident. Those other colors are not present at all in the teal version of the shot. Mistakenly adding too much red or dialing out the teal would not bring back the brown and the gray and the silver and the blue. Which is more plausible? 1) When creating the broadcast master (presumably in the late 1990s), the operator digitally repainted the scene section-by-section and frame-by-frame to add brown and red and silver and gray and blue for reasons only that person may understand. Yet, in doing all this work, he didn't notice that the judge's face was pink. Or 2) When creating the Blu-ray transfer, Michael Mann cranked up the Teal dial on his console and said, "There, I like that better now." Really, reason this through logically. |
Re: Criterion releases on Blu-Rays, Part II
As stated before. No way was Thief made to look like the BD.
The teal is deliberate in the now. Look at those shots when he's on the beach. Very clean and natural. Then you go interior and night shots. Teal. If Mann wanted it look like that he could have applied a physical filter or some lighting. But it's evident it is digital. It's too perfect. Too clean for that era. That's a digital application on this film. Now the image itself is amazing in the technical but it's not right. |
Re: Criterion releases on Blu-Rays, Part II
Originally Posted by Josh Z
(Post 12164477)
Let's look at this example again.
http://i449.photobucket.com/albums/q...psadffdf7c.jpg |
Re: Criterion releases on Blu-Rays, Part II
Vintage film stocks could hardly be manipulated towards teal like the modern digital gradings of today. The closest older films ever got to the pervasive teal we have today were by using gels and creative lighting on the set. It's a trend that largely did not exist in the analog celluloid era.
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Originally Posted by PhantomStranger
(Post 12164713)
Vintage film stocks could hardly be manipulated towards teal like the modern digital gradings of today. The closest older films ever got to the pervasive teal we have today were by using gels and creative lighting on the set. It's a trend that largely did not exist in the analog celluloid era.
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Re: Criterion releases on Blu-Rays, Part II
No. Not like the way it looks now. It'd LITERALLY be a washed in color to the whole palette of the frames image within the intended section.
With digital you've got the exact process of selection. There may be a teal in the majority of shots but it is A controlled action. |
Re: Criterion releases on Blu-Rays, Part II
Salmon (pale orange-ish) and teal were a very popular color combination in the 50's.
And apparently according to Bruce Kimmel (Haineshisway), colors skewed this way with the type of projector lamps that were prevalent at that time (can't remember if that was carbon arc or vice versa). Colors will be slightly affected by the light source. But I have serious doubts that the heavy teal look of the Fox Bds, especially for films from that era like Desk Set, is entirely correct...but I have no choice but to defer to people like Mr Kimmel and Mr Harris who were there then. My heaviest theater going and movie watching was between '78 up to about '83. I'm very familiar with the films from that era. Josh is correct that teal coloring was just not something you saw on films back then. That is extremely stylized and if something like that were in the marketplace it would stand out like a sore thumb because the overall fashion of the time was a life-like, if somewhat subdued, range of colors. Films these days get graded to look near mono (or rather) duo-chromatic. It's amazing to me that just because we are in the middle of it that more people can't see how artificial and manipulated it still looks. But over and over I keep seeing people comment on some new release on Bd were the image "looks natural" when it is anything but. |
Re: Criterion releases on Blu-Rays, Part II
Is nobody impressed with my color correction? :sad:
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Re: Criterion releases on Blu-Rays, Part II
I love you, man.
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Re: Criterion releases on Blu-Rays, Part II
Originally Posted by DaveyJoe
(Post 12164817)
Is nobody impressed with my color correction? :sad:
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Re: Criterion releases on Blu-Rays, Part II
:lol:
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Re: Criterion releases on Blu-Rays, Part II
All I know is that judge sure seems exasperated by this argument.
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Re: Criterion releases on Blu-Rays, Part II
Originally Posted by Supermallet
(Post 12164882)
All I know is that judge sure seems exasperated by this argument.
rotfl |
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