Hey! What's everybody's problem with the judge? Maybe the man has a skin condition! First he's red, then he's teal? Man, that must've made for a difficult childhood! You guys are all quick to point fingers, it isn't his fault he was born that way ;)!
Originally Posted by DaveyJoe
(Post 12164817)
Is nobody impressed with my color correction? :sad:
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Re: Criterion releases on Blu-Rays, Part II
Originally Posted by DaveyJoe
(Post 12164817)
Is nobody impressed with my color correction? :sad:
OK, fine, you managed to conjure a reasonable approximation of the broadcast version's colors. My point still stands, however, that if the scene was originally bathed in teal back in 1981, the person who did the broadcast transfer would have had to go out of their way and put in extra effort to remove the original coloring that the director had applied. Why would they do that? |
Re: Criterion releases on Blu-Rays, Part II
Originally Posted by Josh Z
(Post 12165359)
My office network blocks Photobucket, so I wasn't able to look at your photo until late last night.
OK, fine, you managed to conjure a reasonable approximation of the broadcast version's colors. My point still stands, however, that if the scene was originally bathed in teal back in 1981, the person who did the broadcast transfer would have had to go out of their way and put in extra effort to remove the original coloring that the director had applied. Why would they do that? ^I'm definitely planning on picking up Scanners next week, I'm a big Cronenberg fan and the DVD I have is pretty weak. |
Re: Criterion releases on Blu-Rays, Part II
Originally Posted by DaveyJoe
(Post 12165386)
For the same reason stores like Best Buy and Circuit City never featured properly calibrated HDTVs in their showroom, they think that consumers are more impressed by vivid colors and eye-popping visuals than accuracy, and they're probably right. If Thief is supposed to look cool and muted, that would probably underwhelming for people watching at home. It's one thing to watch a movie like that in the theater where it's pitch black, but a viewer at home watching during the day might think "This is what the HD hubbub is all about? I can barely see anything!"
The sort of wholesale disregard for what a movie is supposed to look like was common in prior decades, but by the DVD era, most studios had gotten on board with at least attempting to represent the director's intentions. Sure, often they did stupid things like adding Edge Enhancement and DNR to "clean up" a picture because they didn't know any better, but deliberately going out of the way to undo a specific stylistic effect that the the director had clearly intended? That just seems very unlikely to me. "You know, this John Woo guy uses too much slo-mo. I'm just gonna go ahead and speed all that up so that it looks normal. People'll thank me for it. Cuz I know better than the stupid director." You tell me that something like that happened in 1982, I'll totally believe you. 2002, though... Eh, doubtful. Again, I'm not saying that the broadcast master is "correct," but I'm fairly confident that (aside from the red push) it's a lot closer to what the movie looked like in 1981 than the Blu-ray is. What seems most likely to me is that the person doing the broadcast transfer just took the film elements he was given, did a quick scan, and called it a day without paying much attention to the fact that his red gain was a little too high. The colors otherwise are basically what was on the print. Whereas when Michael Mann supervised the Blu-ray transfer, he went in with his fancy digital toolkit and consciously "updated" the movie to his current preferences. |
Re: Criterion releases on Blu-Rays, Part II
Best part of the Criterion Thief are the teal walled tires!
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Re: Criterion releases on Blu-Rays, Part II
I must be in the minority but I don't care if the Blu-ray looks like the film I saw in the 70s or 80s or 90s; I want it to be how the director intended. If the original version is not as intended for whatever reason-monetary or technology limitations etc, I'm ok with some tweaking. It is his or her project and I want to see the film the director wanted. However, I can't imagine any director wants "teal walled tires".
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Re: Criterion releases on Blu-Rays, Part II
There's a big difference between "I always wanted my film to look like X when I made it but couldn't because of technical limitations" and "Wait, I can make the whole film teal now? Suh-weet!" IMHO anyway.
Also there's something to be said for letting films stand as they are. That's why I love the Blade Runner set so much. It allows each cut of the film to speak for itself. |
Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer
i came for the artistic merit, but stayed for the teal.
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Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer
it could be in black and white, i just thought it was a fantastic movie...
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Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer
Damn, between THIEF and now, SCANNERS, it seems Criterion has sold out. They've become yes-men to the whims of so-called "Director-approved" tinkering. THIEF looks awful. SCANNERS looks awful. Criterion didn't want to inferfere, but instead sold out to spite itself.
THIEF does not look as the director *intended* in 1981. It looks like a monochromatic mess of teal, stylized to the whims of the audiences of 2014. Josh is indeed correct that films *did not* look like this in 1981. We know we're in deep when perhaps the mostly highly respected videophile company of them all, Criterion, does not do a double-take, and refuse to cater to the 'modernization' tealization trend. They should insist on releasing what was seen in theatres as a truly accurate preservation of the art form. Indeed, it shows they don't want to disturb too many egos... |
Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer
Ehhhhh. I wouldn't call it selling out. They've allowed issues like this before. Cases like these I'd never directly blame CC on. If you piss off the guy that you brought on to help with the film coming onto BD... What happens?
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Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer
Watching Devil Rides Out the other night, and especially the special feature on the CG tweaking afterward- it's become clear to me that the only kind of revisionism I can tolerate is that which is done by fans or contracted third parties.
When the actual filmmakers revisit their films decades later their intention isn't to hew to the established feel or sense of the film- it's generally to change it entirely. Whether it is adding material that completely destroys the original pacing (Apocalypse Now Redux, Star Wars SEs, The Warriors) or wholesale changes to the visual look of the film (Thief, Dracula, most of Ridley Scott's catalog)- the seeming intention of these changes is to make the film feel new or different. Contrast that with the approaches taken by Paramount in updating the effects for TOS or the comments by the effects team in Devil Rides Out special feature. These people care about trying to preserve the distinct feel of the original film while smoothing out the edges. The point is to try to make the alterations feel as seamless as possible. These directors OTOH are doing almost everything possible to pull their film out of the era it was made in and tarting it up so that it passes for something contemporary...as if being of it's era was something to be ashamed of. |
Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer
Originally Posted by Solid Snake
(Post 12167408)
Ehhhhh. I wouldn't call it selling out. They've allowed issues like this before. Cases like these I'd never directly blame CC on. If you piss off the guy that you brought on to help with the film coming onto BD... What happens?
Give us, the paying viewers and fans a choice, dammit! |
Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer
I'm pretty sure the upcoming UK Blu-ray of "Thief" will look exactly the same as the Criterion.
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Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer
Originally Posted by zyzzle
(Post 12167403)
Damn, between THIEF and now, SCANNERS, it seems Criterion has sold out. They've become yes-men to the whims of so-called "Director-approved" tinkering.
The problems with these discs are not Criterion's fault. Criterion made a good-faith effort to have the original filmmakers consult on and approve the product. If the filmmakers want to damage their old movies, that's on them. It is not Criterion's place to stand up to or pick fights with the filmmakers. |
Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer
Originally Posted by Josh Z
(Post 12167605)
The problems with these discs are not Criterion's fault. Criterion made a good-faith effort to have the original filmmakers consult on and approve the product. If the filmmakers want to damage their old movies, that's on them. It is not Criterion's place to stand up to or pick fights with the filmmakers.
BTW: What does the original cinematograper have to say about the tealization of THIEF? Did his input come into the picture at all? Or, is the director's word in Criterion's 'consultation' tantamount to Zeus striking down the lightning bolt? |
Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer
Originally Posted by Josh Z
(Post 12167605)
This is consistent with Criterion's policy all along. Criterion has always deferred to the wishes of the original filmmakers in how they want their movies presented, for better or worse. That's why The Last Emperor is cropped and a number of other films are only available in "Director's Cut" versions in the Criterion Collection.
The problems with these discs are not Criterion's fault. Criterion made a good-faith effort to have the original filmmakers consult on and approve the product. If the filmmakers want to damage their old movies, that's on them. It is not Criterion's place to stand up to or pick fights with the filmmakers. The difference with Thief and Scanners are that they are relatively recent, sort-of mainstream films by directors with cult followings. And more specifically they are the kind of titles which appeal to a certain segment of the online audience who obsess over screenshots and such. I'm not saying they're right or wrong. I'm just saying that the volume is turned up a little louder on the complaints for these two. Criterion hasn't changed a thing with regards to how they operate. |
Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer
I noticed the color-timing change on Criterion's release of DAYS OF HEAVEN too, but it does not seem as egregious as that applied to either SCANNERS or THIEF. The Malick film now looks too dark and orange to me, but again, I can live with it. It still shouldn't have been tinkered with.
Certainly there are those freaks who endlessly obsess over screenshots. The problem of the THIEF Criterion 'reimagining' transcends screenshots alone. It now places the film as an anachronism: a 1981 theatrical release spiffed up, modernized, and gentrified -- catering to the ideals and whims of the director whose 2014 personal choice has been foisted upon a company and the public. The biggest problem of all is that we now have a technically-faultless, superior 1080p encode of a bastardized product. |
Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer
Enough with this shit.
Just ordered this BD. |
Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer
It's a great BD. Not a damn thing wrong with it in the technical. It's just Mann's revisionism that fucks it up. At least Thief looks good with the teal. It's not right but it ain't an ugly movie.
TGTBTU hurts my eyes for example. No goddamn way did Leone ever intend that film to hit the yellow and black areas of color so harshly. God damn you, BD tinkerers. |
Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer
Originally Posted by Solid Snake
(Post 12167836)
It's a great BD. Not a damn thing wrong with it in the technical. It's just Mann's revisionism that fucks it up. At least Thief looks good with the teal. It's not right but it ain't an ugly movie.
TGTBTU hurts my eyes for example. No goddamn way did Leone ever intend that film to hit the yellow and black areas of color so harshly. God damn you, BD tinkerers. |
Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer
Originally Posted by hanshotfirst1138
(Post 12167993)
Granting what Leone did or did not intend, I can guarantee for a fact that he intended the sound to be mono, not a downmix of 5.1 created after his death. Why the fuck they can't still lossless mono on there is a fucking mystery to me. Why is it so hard?!
As far as THIEF goes, I still haven't watched it but what little I saw of the Blu Ray looks phenomenal and the teal does give it a "heist" picture tone. I'll make a better assessment when I watch it. I sympathize with old school fans of the movie who don't like the teal. I would be pissed if Mann screwed with the colors on Manhunter (though he screwed with it plenty on editing). If the revisionist action really bothers someone then my advise would be to do what I did with Star Wars on Blu ray; don't buy it. |
Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer
Originally Posted by Why So Blu?
(Post 12167745)
Enough with this shit.
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Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer
I watched the BluRay again on Saturday night and the screenshots do not represent the viewing experience. The image was much brighter and less teal on my setup. There isn't a teal haze running throughout the entire film, while some shots do indeed look cool, blacks and skin tones both looked natural. I don't know if those screenshots were botched, but they are much, much darker and more teal than the movie looked on my television. Either way, it looks great.
This scene: http://images3.static-bluray.com/reviews/9239_13.jpg Looked more like this on my setup: http://i449.photobucket.com/albums/q...ps92b73ca6.jpg As for the original theatrical presentation, people on the internet were up in arms over the Terminator remaster until some videos surfaced from the 80s with James Cameron referencing the cyan look of the film. I'm going to reserve judgment for the time being. I wonder what people think of this production still uploaded on IMDB in 2011: http://www.imdb.com/media/rm21557235...mi_mi_all_sf_2 |
Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer
Originally Posted by DaveyJoe
(Post 12168035)
I watched the BluRay again on Saturday night and the screenshots do not represent the viewing experience.
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Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer
Originally Posted by DaveyJoe
(Post 12168035)
As for the original theatrical presentation, people on the internet were up in arms over the Terminator remaster until some videos surfaced from the 80s with James Cameron referencing the cyan look of the film.
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Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer
Well, I found this: http://www.terminatorfiles.net/forum...hp?f=27&t=5217
And a post there says: in the "Other Voices" documentary, James Cameron talks about Arnold's first day and says: ...Arnold walked in the first night and it was in the post-burn makeup, where his eyebrows were gone, and his hairline was back, and he had this kind of punked-out haircut, and we slammed him in the police car and we started shooting and we got that Adam Greenburg lighting with that cold, kind of cyan glow from below, and when we saw dailies the next day we just went, 'Oh, baby! This is... This is great!' |
Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer
Originally Posted by Josh Z
(Post 12168049)
You're going to have to direct me to that video. James Cameron's signature look in the 1980s was a "steely" blue color palette. Blue is not the same color as cyan or teal.
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Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer
^^ That's the one, also there's this from Torsten Kaiser:
To be specific on THE TERMINATOR the cyan / bluish tones WERE very much part of the color palette, which was - on the original prints - in the DeLuxe process. But as opposed to the BD - on 35mm these were mostly COLOR / SHADE SPECIFIC and not as global as seen in many shots. However: note that the color re-timing, ideally, is done shot by shot and a simple setting of that LUT is not just applied to all shots with a single touch of a button. In some shots of the new BD, the emphasis (saturation) on cyanish tones is a bit too much (but specifically night scenes were lit in cyan[!] so it has to be there), while in most, though not perfect for the reasons I stated the timing made are still pretty darn good, and on yet on few others again photochemical effects such as in the discotheque are (yet again) are, unfortunately, not fully realized to the original portential (see below). Bottom line: DIs can be made cheaper, different, more precise in many ways, yes. Specific photochemical attributes, however, can still not be achieved digitally on many levels. That beauty is tied only to film. Note also that color processing on both analogue and digital fronts is also a matter of choice by the colorist and/or the people who ordered/supervised it. Before finalizing production - and after. The latter being the more complicated. A lot of people here would not believe how many films they have seen and grown to love in this specific "color palette" that are - in truth and reality - ABSOLUTELY WRONG in color representation/registration. Welcome to my world. I'm pretty sure a that someone who actually handled the prints will know more than people that haven't seen them. |
Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer
Originally Posted by DaveyJoe
(Post 12168035)
I wonder what people think of this production still uploaded on IMDB in 2011: http://www.imdb.com/media/rm21557235...mi_mi_all_sf_2
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Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer
Originally Posted by DaveyJoe
(Post 12168035)
I'm going to reserve judgment for the time being. I wonder what people think of this production still uploaded on IMDB in 2011: http://www.imdb.com/media/rm21557235...mi_mi_all_sf_2
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Originally Posted by Ringmaster
(Post 12168003)
It's because they insist on shoving the extended cut down our throats. There isn't a true mono mix for those extended scenes since those were newly recorded with Eastwood and Wallich. Fox should of included both versions (mono on the theatrical cut) without fucking with the colors, little DNR, and a 4k scan. As far as THIEF goes, I still haven't watched it but what little I saw of the Blu Ray looks phenomenal and the teal does give it a "heist" picture tone. I'll make a better assessment when I watch it. I sympathize with old school fans of the movie who don't like the teal. I would be pissed if Mann screwed with the colors on Manhunter (though he screwed with it plenty on editing). If the revisionist action really bothers someone then my advise would be to do what I did with Star Wars on Blu ray; don't buy it.
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Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer
Originally Posted by DaveyJoe
(Post 12168035)
I watched the BluRay again on Saturday night and the screenshots do not represent the viewing experience. The image was much brighter and less teal on my setup. There isn't a teal haze running throughout the entire film, while some shots do indeed look cool, blacks and skin tones both looked natural. I don't know if those screenshots were botched, but they are much, much darker and more teal than the movie looked on my television. Either way, it looks great.
This scene: http://images3.static-bluray.com/reviews/9239_13.jpg Looked more like this on my setup: http://i449.photobucket.com/albums/q...ps92b73ca6.jpg As for the original theatrical presentation, people on the internet were up in arms over the Terminator remaster until some videos surfaced from the 80s with James Cameron referencing the cyan look of the film. I'm going to reserve judgment for the time being. I wonder what people think of this production still uploaded on IMDB in 2011: http://www.imdb.com/media/rm21557235...mi_mi_all_sf_2 Not surprising. This is one of the few forums that I frequent where the majority of members don't even calibrate their sets properly. I remember when the fellowship of the ring nonsense was aired out then I got the BD and watched it and saw that it was a bunch of horse shit. I expect similar results with the Thief BD. |
Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer
Originally Posted by Why So Blu?
(Post 12168313)
Not surprising. This is one of the few forums that I frequent where the majority of members don't even calibrate their sets properly.
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Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer
Originally Posted by hanshotfirst1138
(Post 12168709)
I'm working on it, I have the disc, it just looks like it'll be more time-consuming than I anticipated ;)!
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Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer
Originally Posted by Why So Blu?
(Post 12168313)
Not surprising. This is one of the few forums that I frequent where the majority of members don't even calibrate their sets properly. I remember when the fellowship of the ring nonsense was aired out then I got the BD and watched it and saw that it was a bunch of horse shit. I expect similar results with the Thief BD.
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Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer
Originally Posted by OldBoy
(Post 12167387)
it could be in black and white, i just thought it was a fantastic movie...
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Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer
Originally Posted by d2cheer
(Post 12171632)
Agree, can't stand all of this whinning about the colors. The blu looks fantastic. Truth is NO ONE probably really knows what it should be the same for other movies. No one remembers what it was like in the theater regardless if they say they do.
Agreed that the film is a masterpiece, I'm glad it was released, and will have to live with the Criterion version until another release comes along. |
Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer
Originally Posted by d2cheer
(Post 12171632)
truth is no one probably really knows what it should be the same for other movies. No one remembers what it was like in the theater regardless if they say they do.
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Re: Thief (Criterion edition) comments regarding transfer
So I guess the people that discount that don't believe in such a thing as sense memory at all?
Or do you only believe in certain senses having a memory. Do certain smells ever conjure up specific memories? For cryin out loud, Proust wrote a 1000 pages off the whiff of a biscuit. I can't distinguish pitch differences to save my life, but then I'm not aurally inclined. I'm a visual person. Don't really understand why that is so hard to comprehend, just because you may not be wired that way. |
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