PatD

I just have to comment at how perplexed I am at all the love for "Batman Returns". I found that was the beginning of Batman's "Silliness Spiral" during the 90s.

Schumacher gets the brunt of the blame for Batman sinking into a new realm of camp that would have embarrassed Adam West and company; but Tim Burton pointed that plane's nose toward the ground and started accelerating towards the ground.

DieselsDen

I agree with this assessment.

I found Catwoman's origin (pushed off a building and then revived by cats with 9 lives [?!?!?!?!]) as well as Penguin's origin (a mutant child raised by penguins...thus becoming a human penguin?) to be among the worse told by any superhero movie.

And all the little things bothered me: the Bat-signal in the sky triggering small bat signals the beam directly into Bruce Wayne's study...does this happen even when he's having a dinner party? And how hundreds of penguins can be equipped with missiles. Or how the people of Gotham who regard Batman as a hero can believe that he would kill some lady. Or how Max Schreck can push his own secretary through a window, and she makes no big deal out of it and he doesn't wonder how the hell she survives.

BATMAN FOREVER and BATMAN AND ROBIN are by far worse movies, but that doesn't say much about one of the most baffling superhero sequels I've ever seen (save for SUPERMAN III and IV).

Mike86

The Burton movies aren't masterful by any means and are more over the top than the Nolan films, but they were at least fairly decent compared to the Schumacher movies. I think the Burton movies were more comic book feeling so some of the goofier elements didn't bother me as much. The Schumacher movies took that and amped up the campy factor by a ton and were hard to watch at times (mostly Batman & Robin, Batman Forever has it's decent moments even though I don't love it).

Lutz

Please use the word "camp" correctly because Schumacher's Batman movies aren't even remotely camp.

Correct use of the word camp would be for movies like Thunderstruck! (camp) Reflections In A Golden Eye (high camp).

My Other Self

Batman & Robin is on the verge of camp territory with all of Arnold's cheesy one-liners, bat nipples, cod pieces, and every other miserable piece of shit that filled the screen.

It's like they wanted to pay a homage to the 60s show but took it one step too far.

I remember my dad got Batman & Robin on VHS for his birthday in 1997. He didn't look thrilled to get it but 11 year old me couldn't wait to pop it in the VCR (since I hadn't seen it yet) so I tore the plastic off and he was pissed. He wanted to return it for store credit.

Mike86

How exactly do the Schumacher films not fit into the campy category and why should I go by your opinion?

Lutz

My reasoning there was more or less by example (and I meant Thundercrack! of course).

Camp is reality taken to such a serious extent that it becomes earnest. It's intelligent in it's content and most importantly of all is based on humanism and has compassion for it's subjects.

The original 60s Batman is camp because of it's realism. It takes the concept of Batman seriously and gives him and his villains banal, very human, everyday motivations. The finesse of it's intelligent writing and the thought put into it's production is completely missing from the newer movies.

Lutz

Actually even if you meant kitsch to describe Schumacher's movies it would still be incorrect, kitsch being a positive means of expression that is at odds with middle class taste, I think everyone can agree that Schumacher's movies don't exhibit any real design quality that can be considered good bad-taste.

PatD

I found Batman '89 and Batman Returns to be very different animals--hell, different species! Batman '89 was the only one of the four that was grounded in some semblance of reality and it's the closest to the Nolan-Batman movies (and I emphasize *closest*, not *exactly*). Batman '89 was a "Batman Movie" (directed by Tim Burton) where Batman Returns was a pure "Tim Burton Movie". It had the same Beetlejuice/Edward Scissorhands vibe and wholly fantastical with one preposterous scene after another. It was a jarring experience as a fan of the relatively serious first one. It had that same reality tone-schism that Superman '78 and Superman III had and it turned me off.

Solid Snake

Funny. I love BR more. As an adaptation..well...not so much but it was fucking interesting. That was the thing that got me into Batman actually. My mom tried to sell me on the first one. No Dice. Saw a TV spot for BR. SOLD.

Travis McClain

I'm gonna avoid yet another "Schumacher Bad!" debate, but perhaps his Bat-films are neo-camp?

PatD

"Neo-camp". I like that. Would "Superman III" count under that term?

Travis McClain

Maybe. Here are some other offhand examples (though I'll let the rest of you debate the merits of each regarding the genre):

The live action Scooby-Doo movies
Dude, Where's My Car?
Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull
Zombie Strippers (hews closer to camp proper, though)
Die Another Day (certainly, the last half of it anyway)
Bandidas (again, closer to camp proper)

Josh Z

Not sure where you're getting this idea that camp has to be based in "realism" from. That's pretty much the opposite of camp, which is ridiculous, garish and obnoxious by design.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_(style)

JeffTheAlpaca

Did anybody buy the new Best Buy exclusive with all 4 films on Blu-ray for $19.99 and is it worth the money where all 4 films still look good in HD probably on one disc?

Travis McClain

They're not all on one disc (dunno where you got that). The 4 Film Favorites series just throws four previously released discs together in one DVD case. Here are some photos from a post on Blu-ray.com to demonstrate. You're getting the four discs that have already been released (and look fantastic!).

JeffTheAlpaca

Thanks

Not available for shipping at Best Buy and only store pickup

Class316

Personally I think Batman Returns is the best one. Maybe the origins of the villains are a little over the top, but the performances of the actors, the ambience of the movie, the overall story, is just unmatched.

The first one is great, don't get me wrong. It's just not Returns.

Travis McClain

Batman Returns feels a lot more like a typical Tim Burton film, so if you're into his storytelling aesthetics (as I am), there's a lot to dig about it. I like its sense of humor and its pacing. Almost everything about it visually is interesting, from those lush sets to the richly detailed costumes. Danny Elfman's score is lively and though it relies heavily on his "Batman Theme", that's such a great piece that I'm happy to hear it again. I don't think he overdid it, either, so it works. His motifs for The Penguin and Catwoman are both wonderful.

It's The Penguin that's the problem.

I've already articulated my problems with him, but I honestly can't remember offhand whether it was in this thread or one of the numerous other Bat-threads so at the risk of redundancy here, I'll spare you the search query. DeVito has some of the best lines in any Batman movie to date, but his delivery mangles them. And I don't know who decided he should appear on screen in that drab fat suit so much, but that was a horrible decision. His tux looks spectacular, but he spends so much time out of it that it bothers me.

Batman actually killing a Red Triangle Circus member with a bomb doesn't work for me, either. It's not as glaring as, say, Superman not even looking at any of the 129,000 projected casualties in Man of Steel, but it's still jarring.

Josh Z

Burton's Batman also machine-gunned down a bunch of henchmen in the first movie. This was fairly controversial among comic book fans at the time.

Travis McClain

I don't care for Batman using guns at all, so having machine guns on the Batmobile and the Batwing bugged me, too. But I kind of accepted that there would be reasonable arguments for having and using them on vehicles, whereas actually sticking a guy with a bomb was a whole lot more deliberate. There's just no way for me to rationalize that one.

Spottedfeather

Batman Returns was silly ? Other than the clown gang of the Penguin, I can't think of anything especially silly.

Drop

I guess it's silly the way early Burton films were (dark, absurd and over the top), but it is nothing like what Schumacher did. Whatever Burton did, I do like Returns more than Batman. It's probably the most rewatchable Batman move for me.

Paul_SD

Seriously?
-woman pushed out window 10 stories up, resuscitated by cats
-penguins communicate telepathically with human
-big climactic set piece consists of penguins with missiles strapped on changing direction
-'scratching' a CD
-villains plans are laboriously set up and then quickly rendered ineffectual (more of a typical lameness of the director who values visuals over story, but still...)
-Sprawling Gotham seems to now be reduced to one city block where everything happens
-The citizens of Gotham are complete morons throwing away their support of Penguin when someone plays a CD of dubious origin over a loudspeaker.
-Batmobile sheers it's sides off driving down a narrow space between buildings

but hey, it was the 90's. one of the worst ever eras for comic books as well as comic book movies.