Why Are There So Few BD's With 7.1 Audio?
07-22-09 | 08:10 PM
#1
Thread Starter
DVD Talk Gold Edition
Why Are There So Few BD's With 7.1 Audio?
If the answer is because most films are made with 5.1 audio, then why aren't more films made with 7.1? Is there a list of BD's with 7.1 audio?
07-22-09 | 08:16 PM
#2
Suspended
Re: Why Are There So Few BD's With 7.1 Audio?
People with 5.1 outnumber the 7.1 probably 20 to 1 so less people would even take advantage of it.
And for some, the studios don't want to go back and remaster it to 7.1.
I'm sure someone else could explain it better.
And for some, the studios don't want to go back and remaster it to 7.1.
I'm sure someone else could explain it better.
07-22-09 | 08:28 PM
#3
DVD Talk Legend
Re: Why Are There So Few BD's With 7.1 Audio?
I'm betting 5.1 outnumbers 7.1 100 to 1 at the consumer level. Just 10 years ago when DVD started there were still a significant portion of Dolby 2.0 set-ups. It will probably be another 10 years before 7.1 is the norm if ever. I know my room is kind of shallow for a good 7.1 setup. I could put a couple speakers down low to get 7.1 but if you can't do it right why do it?
07-22-09 | 08:45 PM
#4
Suspended
Re: Why Are There So Few BD's With 7.1 Audio?
I'm betting 5.1 outnumbers 7.1 100 to 1 at the consumer level. Just 10 years ago when DVD started there were still a significant portion of Dolby 2.0 set-ups. It will probably be another 10 years before 7.1 is the norm if ever. I know my room is kind of shallow for a good 7.1 setup. I could put a couple speakers down low to get 7.1 but if you can't do it right why do it?
07-22-09 | 08:52 PM
#5
DVD Talk Hero
Re: Why Are There So Few BD's With 7.1 Audio?
I have a 7.1 receiver and some extra speakers like around that I could use as surround back channels for now until I get something better. The problem is that I really don't have the space for a 7.1 setup.
I have listened to good 7.1 setups but when going back and forth between that and 5.1 (without using any processing to get 7.1 out of the 5.1 tracks), I didn't find the difference to be that big of a deal. It was nice but it wasn't amazing.
I have listened to good 7.1 setups but when going back and forth between that and 5.1 (without using any processing to get 7.1 out of the 5.1 tracks), I didn't find the difference to be that big of a deal. It was nice but it wasn't amazing.
07-23-09 | 12:40 AM
#6
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
Re: Why Are There So Few BD's With 7.1 Audio?
From what I've read, very few movies (if any) are mixed in 6.1 or 7.1. Most movies that advertise 6 or 7 channels are really 5.1 with pre-matrixed rear surrounds. So, instead of your Pro-Logic IIx processor doing the work, it's done ahead of time.
07-23-09 | 09:00 AM
#7
DVD Talk Limited Edition
Re: Why Are There So Few BD's With 7.1 Audio?
It isn't that big of a deal for studios to make the movie 7.1 since DD, DTS and uncompressed audio will simply take that track and downmix it to 5.1 for people with that type of surround sound. It's somehwhat like when you play your 5.1 track through a player that is only hooked up for analog left and right. The player will downmix it to 2 channels.
So why are studios being so lazy?
So why are studios being so lazy?
07-23-09 | 11:32 AM
#8
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Re: Why Are There So Few BD's With 7.1 Audio?
I have two 7.1 releases - CSI Season 1 and the Star Trek Motion Picture Trilogy (Trek 2, 3 and 4)
Having heard just what was in those extra channels - the rear channel sound you would typically hear in a 5.1 setup is moved to the surround back channels, and a non-discrete, almost reverb-like effect is put where the 5.1 rears would be, you aren't missing anything to make it worth adding those channels. 5.1, and to a minor degree 6.1 is really all one would need. Just because there's more doesn't make it better.
How I discovered this was through an experiment I mentioned in another thread:
Having heard just what was in those extra channels - the rear channel sound you would typically hear in a 5.1 setup is moved to the surround back channels, and a non-discrete, almost reverb-like effect is put where the 5.1 rears would be, you aren't missing anything to make it worth adding those channels. 5.1, and to a minor degree 6.1 is really all one would need. Just because there's more doesn't make it better.
How I discovered this was through an experiment I mentioned in another thread:
What happened was I bought the CSI season 1 Blu-ray which has 7.1 surround audio. I know the mix of the opening theme (Who Are You) inside and out and I was missing those bouncing synthesizer effects that sort of zig-zag from the left and right surround channels. When I couldn't hear them, as well as realizing that what I was hearing behind me wasn't nearly as discrete I plugged in a couple of additional speakers into the surround back ports and gave a listen.
Turns out those discrete sounds were moved to the surround back channels, along with all the discrete surround activity one would typically hear in the rears of a 5.1 mix. Deselecting the 7.1 output options on the PS3 didn't help - the rear surrounds were simply ignored. Turning off surround back decoding on the receiver did nothing as well, so I just moved the speaker connections into the surround backs, and that was that - 5.1 is the same as always and I get the correct output of the 7.1 rears. The 7.1 mix of CSI as well as the Star Trek Blu-ray releases was unnecessary, since the sounds output in those surround channels aren't really discrete. There's nothing exclusive to them. It's basically Pro-Logic IIx done for the listener in advance.
Turns out those discrete sounds were moved to the surround back channels, along with all the discrete surround activity one would typically hear in the rears of a 5.1 mix. Deselecting the 7.1 output options on the PS3 didn't help - the rear surrounds were simply ignored. Turning off surround back decoding on the receiver did nothing as well, so I just moved the speaker connections into the surround backs, and that was that - 5.1 is the same as always and I get the correct output of the 7.1 rears. The 7.1 mix of CSI as well as the Star Trek Blu-ray releases was unnecessary, since the sounds output in those surround channels aren't really discrete. There's nothing exclusive to them. It's basically Pro-Logic IIx done for the listener in advance.
07-23-09 | 02:18 PM
#9
Thread Starter
DVD Talk Gold Edition
Re: Why Are There So Few BD's With 7.1 Audio?
It just seems to me studios could market BD's as having another advantage over DVDs if they really pushed 7.1. And what about films themselves? If they produced more films with 7.1, that could potentially be another lure to get people back into theaters. Kind of like the onslaught of 3D movies we've seen in recent years. I'm personally not impressed with the whole 3D thing but it appeals to some, and it's just a marketing gimmick to try to get people to go to the cinema instead of waiting for the DVD or BD.
07-23-09 | 02:19 PM
#10
Moderator
Re: Why Are There So Few BD's With 7.1 Audio?
I'm just annoyed that 7.1 has superceded 6.1, I can only really upgrade my sound system to that, not TWO more additional rear channels.
07-23-09 | 02:36 PM
#11
DVD Talk Limited Edition
Re: Why Are There So Few BD's With 7.1 Audio?
Originally Posted by Nick Martin
I have two 7.1 releases - CSI Season 1 and the Star Trek Motion Picture Trilogy (Trek 2, 3 and 4)
Having heard just what was in those extra channels - the rear channel sound you would typically hear in a 5.1 setup is moved to the surround back channels, and a non-discrete, almost reverb-like effect is put where the 5.1 rears would be, you aren't missing anything to make it worth adding those channels. 5.1, and to a minor degree 6.1 is really all one would need. Just because there's more doesn't make it better.
Having heard just what was in those extra channels - the rear channel sound you would typically hear in a 5.1 setup is moved to the surround back channels, and a non-discrete, almost reverb-like effect is put where the 5.1 rears would be, you aren't missing anything to make it worth adding those channels. 5.1, and to a minor degree 6.1 is really all one would need. Just because there's more doesn't make it better.
It just seems to me studios could market BD's as having another advantage over DVDs if they really pushed 7.1. And what about films themselves? If they produced more films with 7.1, that could potentially be another lure to get people back into theaters. Kind of like the onslaught of 3D movies we've seen in recent years. I'm personally not impressed with the whole 3D thing but it appeals to some, and it's just a marketing gimmick to try to get people to go to the cinema instead of waiting for the DVD or BD.
Last edited by steebo777; 07-23-09 at 02:39 PM.
07-23-09 | 02:39 PM
#12
Moderator
Re: Why Are There So Few BD's With 7.1 Audio?
I read somewhere, I think Sound & Vision that there's mention that a front height speaker configuriment is in the works - actual five across front speakers, but with two above the LCR three speakers
theatrically, there's always been the notion and implementation of ceiling speakers firing sound down. I think test's with 'We Were Soldiers' was done that way.
theatrically, there's always been the notion and implementation of ceiling speakers firing sound down. I think test's with 'We Were Soldiers' was done that way.
07-23-09 | 02:44 PM
#13
DVD Talk Limited Edition
Re: Why Are There So Few BD's With 7.1 Audio?
I read somewhere, I think Sound & Vision that there's mention that a front height speaker configuriment is in the works - actual five across front speakers, but with two above the LCR three speakers
theatrically, there's always been the notion and implementation of ceiling speakers firing sound down. I think test's with 'We Were Soldiers' was done that way.
theatrically, there's always been the notion and implementation of ceiling speakers firing sound down. I think test's with 'We Were Soldiers' was done that way.
07-23-09 | 02:46 PM
#14
Moderator
Re: Why Are There So Few BD's With 7.1 Audio?
I think it'd be kind of cool to hear some of those 8-channel SDDS and 70mm mixes that used the five front channel soundmixes.
07-23-09 | 03:17 PM
#16
DVD Talk Hero
Re: Why Are There So Few BD's With 7.1 Audio?
Don't knock it. Whe might get something weird like that eventually. It's like the boatload of configurations for 7.1 audio. And issue of Widescreen Review had an article about how 7.1 doesn't have one standard configuration but actually something closer to 6. That may also be why we rarely see 7.1 mixes.
Last edited by RocShemp; 07-23-09 at 03:31 PM.
07-23-09 | 03:29 PM
#17
DVD Talk Hero
Re: Why Are There So Few BD's With 7.1 Audio?
Found it. It was the April 2008 issue. They had 30 Days Of Night on the cover. The article began on page 46. On page 51 they had a 7.1 configuration called "Voice Of God". It was a typical 5.1 setup but with one rear center surround and one center over-head.
In the article, Brant Biles of Mi Casa Multimedia mentions that
He then goes on to describe six of those configurations: Default; Three In Front, Four In Back; Five In Front, Two In Back; "Voice Of God"; Elevated Height Channel In Front; and Elevated Dual Height Channel In Front.
In the article, Brant Biles of Mi Casa Multimedia mentions that
Originally Posted by Brant Biles
There are seven -- yes, seven -- 7.1-channel configurations that were agreed upon by the standards committees for multichannel audio delivery for HD DVD and Blu-ra Disc. Dolby and DTS have simply provided the tools to represent these configurations as dictated by the standards committees.
Last edited by RocShemp; 07-23-09 at 03:42 PM.
07-23-09 | 04:11 PM
#19
DVD Talk Hero
Re: Why Are There So Few BD's With 7.1 Audio?
The BD's I have with 7.1 tracks are:
The Forbidden Kingdon
3:10 To Yuma
The Spirit
Rambo
The Nightmare Before Christmas
Hellboy II: The Golden Army
The Golden Compass
Next Avengers
Dark City
The Bank Job
Sleeping Beauty
The Forbidden Kingdon
3:10 To Yuma
The Spirit
Rambo
The Nightmare Before Christmas
Hellboy II: The Golden Army
The Golden Compass
Next Avengers
Dark City
The Bank Job
Sleeping Beauty
07-23-09 | 05:02 PM
#20
DVD Talk Hero
Re: Why Are There So Few BD's With 7.1 Audio?
I was watching Star Trek V in TrueHD last night and was astounded by the 7.1 mix. During certain scenes, I could easily distinguish unique sounds emanating from each individual speaker. Blew me away.
07-23-09 | 05:10 PM
#21
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Re: Why Are There So Few BD's With 7.1 Audio?
plus 3 separate films, each with their own unique sound mix
lumping those all together would be inaccurate.
A James Bond box set is technically one release, but when it's full of six or seven individually made and mixed films that's a different story.
I'm not saying it's totally useless, but those who don't have it shouldn't feel they are missing out on the good stuff, so to speak.
07-23-09 | 06:13 PM
#22
DVD Talk Legend
Re: Why Are There So Few BD's With 7.1 Audio?
Found it. It was the April 2008 issue. They had 30 Days Of Night on the cover. The article began on page 46. On page 51 they had a 7.1 configuration called "Voice Of God". It was a typical 5.1 setup but with one rear center surround and one center over-head.
In the article, Brant Biles of Mi Casa Multimedia mentions that He then goes on to describe six of those configurations: Default; Three In Front, Four In Back; Five In Front, Two In Back; "Voice Of God"; Elevated Height Channel In Front; and Elevated Dual Height Channel In Front.
In the article, Brant Biles of Mi Casa Multimedia mentions that He then goes on to describe six of those configurations: Default; Three In Front, Four In Back; Five In Front, Two In Back; "Voice Of God"; Elevated Height Channel In Front; and Elevated Dual Height Channel In Front.
Lots of factors are at play for speaker setup (room layout, WAF-wife acceptance factor, etc) so they try to be flexible.
As for why there are not more 7.1 mixes out there, it's a case by case situation but if you've ever dealt with studios, you will know they are all about saving a dime. And more channels means more money, mixing/encoding time and more space taken on the disc, and you know we are all clamoring for the latest documentary on hairstyling behind the scenes of our favorite movie.
07-23-09 | 07:15 PM
#23
DVD Talk Hero
Re: Why Are There So Few BD's With 7.1 Audio?
The current BD spec allows for up to 7.1 discreet channels but there is not a set configuration. You can check out possibilities on the DTS website (http://www.dts.com/Consumer_Electron...gurations.aspx)
Lots of factors are at play for speaker setup (room layout, WAF-wife acceptance factor, etc) so they try to be flexible.
Lots of factors are at play for speaker setup (room layout, WAF-wife acceptance factor, etc) so they try to be flexible.
07-23-09 | 08:23 PM
#24
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07-23-09 | 09:24 PM
#25
Moderator
Re: Why Are There So Few BD's With 7.1 Audio?
The current BD spec allows for up to 7.1 discreet channels but there is not a set configuration. You can check out possibilities on the DTS website (http://www.dts.com/Consumer_Electron...gurations.aspx)
Lots of factors are at play for speaker setup (room layout, WAF-wife acceptance factor, etc) so they try to be flexible.
As for why there are not more 7.1 mixes out there, it's a case by case situation but if you've ever dealt with studios, you will know they are all about saving a dime. And more channels means more money, mixing/encoding time and more space taken on the disc, and you know we are all clamoring for the latest documentary on hairstyling behind the scenes of our favorite movie.
Lots of factors are at play for speaker setup (room layout, WAF-wife acceptance factor, etc) so they try to be flexible.
As for why there are not more 7.1 mixes out there, it's a case by case situation but if you've ever dealt with studios, you will know they are all about saving a dime. And more channels means more money, mixing/encoding time and more space taken on the disc, and you know we are all clamoring for the latest documentary on hairstyling behind the scenes of our favorite movie.