So, sorry if this should be in another forum. I also apologize if this has been answered somewhere; if so, please post the threads--I did a search.

I want to buy a blu-ray system which will allow me to play uncompressed 7.1 audio. What do I need? What should I look for? Does the blu-ray player have to be able to read 7.1 PCM? Does the receiver? I've seen stuff about HDMI being able to pass the information through to the receiver. IN that case, does only the receiver have to be able to deal with PCM? I'm starting from scratch, so would it be bettter for both to be able to decode PCM?

Please help!!

I've done a lot of reading, but nowhere is it really basically laid out, at least not that I can understand. Please talk to me like someone who knows very basic home theatre stuff, because that's what I am.

You might have to check each player to see what players can and cannot output 7.1 PCM. I'm sure all of them can do 5.1 PCM, but after that you'd be well advised to find the manual for any player you're interested in online and verify it can send 7.1. PCM doesn't need to be decoded onboard like TrueHD or DTS-HD MA so any player should be able to read it. But depending on the player some might downgrade to 5.1 PCM for output. I haven't looked at the newest players' capabilities since I'm happy with my year old BD30, so this may not even be an issue anymore.

Any HDMI receiver should be able to deal with PCM, as it's uncompressed audio. The question is, what does it do with it? Even before receivers hit the market that could decode bitstreamed audio, people were taking advantage of the high-def audio by letting their players decode and send uncompressed audio to the receiver.

For example, my Onkyo 605 will not matrix out 5.1 PCM to a 7.1 speaker setup - it'll just play it as is and leave the center rears silent. Higher models can do this though. If I send the Onkyo 7.1 PCM all speakers are active.

It should be noted there are very few movies actually encoded with 7.1 at the moment. I know the PS3 puts out 7.1 PCM from many games.

In my experience, PCM will not be your issue as much as handling TrueHD and DTS-HD MA might be, as these have now become the standard for audio on Blu-Ray with rare exception. Sony and Buena Vista were using PCM consistently but have both switched over to using TrueHD almost all the time. Lionsgate also used PCM a bit but seems to favor DTS-HD MA now too.

I know others here will be able to fill in the blanks on other info.

Just to break down my setup for you, I use the Panasonic BD30 via HDMI to my Onkyo 605 receiver. Right now I bitstream TrueHD and DTS-HD MA as my receiver can decode it and the Panny I have does not internally decode DTS-HD MA. With PCM tracks, the player passes the audio as is to the receiver as it doesn't need to be decoded. This behavior is dictated by settings on the player. I use my receiver in Direct mode so no post-processing or effects are added.

In a nutshell, post if there's a specific player and receiver you're looking at, and anyone with experience on the capabilities of that equipment can chime in.

I can understand your confusion here. This stuff is not easy.

The two components at work here are a Blu-ray player and a receiver.

First the Blu-ray player --

All current Blu-ray players are able to deliver lossless 7.1 audio over HDMI. They will either bitstream the original TrueHD, DTS-HD MA, or LPCM over HDMI or decode/convert into analog or HDMI LPCM. An example of the latter is the PS3, which takes lossless 7.1 DTS-HD MA and generates 7.1 LPCM over HDMI out. Some players, like the Sony S550 or Panasonic 55 can decode the 7.1 Lossless audio types and output from their analog RCA connections on the back. An example of why you may need this is because you have an older 7.1 receiver that doesn't handle HDMI audio, but has analog multi-channel inputs.

Here's some players and what they can output --
Sony S350 - Bitstream all types as TrueHD, DTS-HD MA, or LPCM
Panasonic 35 - Bitstream all types as TrueHD, DTS-HD MA, or LPCM
Samsung 1500 - Bitstream all types as TrueHD, DTS-HD MA, or LPCM
Playstation3 - Decodes all types to LPCM over HDMI
Panasonic 55 - Decodes all types to LPCM over HDMI or 7.1 Analog Out.
Sony S550 - Decodes all types to LPCM over HDMI or 7.1 Analog Out

Now the Receiver --

Next you need a 7.1 receiver that can decode and playback what the Blu-ray player sends to it.

If you have a 7.1 receiver already, and it has multi-channel inputs. Look at those Blu-ray players with 7.1 Analog outs that can decode lossless audio (Sony S550 and Panasonic 55, for example). They are more expensive than the ones without analog outputs, but they can save you the expense of upgrading your receiver.

If you don't have a receiver, or are looking to replace your current one -- there's lots of great options out there. Unfortunately, it's hard to read the spec charts and know what will work the best. Here's some examples --

Onkyo
606, 706, 806, 876 - all 7.1, all take TrueHD, DTS-HD MA, and LPCM

Yamaha (RX series / HTR series)
563 / 6150 - 7.1 but will only take LPCM, so works with PS3
663 / 6140, 863 / 6180 - all 7.1, all take TrueHD, DTS-HD MA, and LPCM

Pioneer
VSX-1018AH-K - 7.1, takes TrueHD, DTS-HD MA, and LPCM

There's tons more from Sony, Denon, Pioneer, Marantz, Sherwood, HK, and many others. I didn't list them because I'm not as up to speed on products from these companies.

Here's some combination and connectivity options --

Sony S350 bitstreams over HDMI to Onkyo 606
Sony S550 decodes to 7.1 analog connections to legacy receiver
PS3 decodes to LPCM over HDMI to Yamaha 563 or 663
Samsung 1500 bistreams over HDMI to Pioneer VSX-1018
Panasonic decodes to 7.1 analog connections to legacy receiver

(legacy receiver is any older receiver with 7.1 analog multi-channel inputs)

-beebs

just give us your budget and we'll tell you what to buy to get it.

There isn't many true 7.1 movies out as of now is there? The only one I can think of is the new Sleeping Beauty on BD?

Thanks for all the answers. I know, btw, that 3:10 to Yuma is 7.1 PCM and Hairspray the musical is in some form of 7.1. So is some Burton film, I think "Nightmare Before Christmas."

You may have been joking, but I'll take you up on it. I spent $3000 or so on my Bravia XBR two years ago. I am willing to spend about that much on the rest of the blu-ray set-up, but I have to get speakers as well. So for everything, I can probably spend $4000, definitely no more than $5000, but the cheaper the better, as long as quality is good. Is that unrealistic? Will I have to spend more?

I still have to buy furniture and window coverings, so I don't want to spend much more than $5000, but I'll be saving up before I have that.

I wasn't joking at all.

How big is your room?
How high are the ceilings?
Is the room sealed? Or are there openings to other rooms? If there are openings, how large are the other rooms?
How much will this be used for movies/tv/music?
Besides a television, is there any other equipment you have that you are keeping (eg. an upconverting DVD player)?

Just don't get anything Onkyo as they make low quality garbage prone to failure.

For the Blu-ray player, buy the Panasonic DMP-BD35. It can be gotten for as low as $250, and is the best standalone BD player with full audio support. That will leave you with $3,750 for the receiver of your choice. Just make sure you buy something with both Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio decoding and you'll be in good shape.

More info:

Blu-ray Audio Explained

Uncompressed vs. Lossless Audio

Not even close to true.

I'm on my third Onkyo - every one has been rock solid. It's not the only game in town, but for a $500 HDMI receiver which can decode next-gen audio, you could do a lot worse.

Feel free to elaborate on your personal experience with Onkyo's gear.

You know I was trying to find those articles to link to, and it doesn't seem like there's any easy way to get to them from HDD's front page. Am I missing a menu somewhere?

No, not really. That's why I keep the full list on my bio page:

http://www.highdefdigest.com/joshzyber.html

Is that bio page even linked anywhere? I can't seem to find it on the main page either. I'm probably looking in the wrong place.

I thought there used to be an Articles link somewhere on the front page. The info is great and should really be front and center IMO.

FYI, the latest 7.1 Blu-ray was Hellboy II . 7.1 dts-HD Master Audio

It's linked from all of my reviews and articles, but not from the main page.

There may have been, but Internet Brands has been tinkering with the front page design ever since the end of the format war.

You can also find some of the relevant articles in the "HD Gear" tab.

Well, it's a one-bedroom condo, about 760 sq. ft. ceilings are standard height: 8 feet or 9 feet. I'll have to check.

Here's the ass though: only the bedroom is closed off. The kitchen/dining area/living area/den is all one open space, shaped like an "L." I am probably going to carve out a space near the window as the home theatre area, but really, it isn't much space. So essentially, one area of the large "L"-shaped room is going to be used as the theatre space. It's actually the corner of the "L" where the long line of the "L" and the short line of the "L" meet. There's also issues with support beams, and the window, etc.

If I learn how to post or link, I can show a floor plan that a designer did for me, if that will help.

Obviously, I'm open to any ideas. Any at all.... even beyond the 7.1 stuff. I"m trying to figure out how to lay out what I have, what furniture to buy, etc.

so what do you own already besides the television?

Besides the TV, in terms of home theatre stuff, I only have a Pioneer DVD home theatre in a box that I bought in May 2001. It was $1000 at the time, and was the best I could afford then.

So I'll have to get new speakers, new blu-ray player, and a receiver.

I will also need chairs or a sofa. Don't own one yet.

I have a TV stand, too, of course, but it was pretty cheap and I'm not above upgrading if I can find a good home for the stand.

It doesn;t sound like your sitting area will warrant 7.1 to be honest. From the square footage I don't think you will be sitting more than 12' from your television. I would stick with a 5.1 system for now and then if you move in the future, you could always add the last 2 channels. Every system I recommend will allow you to do that.

Experts say speakers should be 70% of your budget. Don't go crazy trying to stick to that but it's a good starting point.

My recommended system would be:

$2k

Panasonic BD-35 $200
Onkyo 606 $300
PSB Image B25 (front), B40 (center), B15 (rear) ~$1100
Elemental Designs a2-300 $350
Monoprice cables - ~$40

$3k

Sony PS3 $400
Yamaha RX-v1800 $740
Paradigm Mini Monitors (Front), CC-290 (center), ADP 190 (rear) - $1300
HSU VTF-2 MK3 $500
Monoprice cables - ~$40

I included a PS3 in one option and a Panny in another but obviously you could switch them out of either system. i don;t know if you want a game player/media hub so I gave 2 options.

The ADPs in Option 2 can only be used if the situation allows it. I can;t tell without seeing a room design. If they can't be used, going with a Paradigm Atom is a fine replacement.

I think option #2 is worth more than the $1k difference. Even if you went with option #1 for speakers, I would use the HSU sub and Yamaha receiver from option 2 if you could.

That Yamaha weighs 45lbs compared to the Onkyo's 25. Weight makes a difference with receivers.

I dont think you need to even look at a 4 or 5k system for your situation unless you have the money to spend and it makes no difference. Both systems will give great performance for the dollars you are spending.

I don't know if this is true, but I know that when I purchased an Onkyo receiver it was defective. My Denon receiver, however, works like a charm.

For the OP of this thread: I would recommend buying a Receiver with Audyssey calibration included.

i think anything Denon/Onkyo/Yamaha comes with some sort of calibration recently.

I was going to do a list quite similiar to this. I always have trouble with the speakers, though, as I'm not into higher end stuff. I'm tempted by packages from direct manufacturers, though. 5.1 is all that is needed here.

$3.3k

Panasonic 35K $275
Yamaha RX-v1900 $1200
Paradigm Mini Monitors (Front), CC-290 (center), ADP 190 (rear) - $1300
HSU VTF-1 $500
Monoprice cables - ~$40

I pushed a little and put the new Yamaha RX-V1900 in there, but the 1800 is just fine. That Sub is definitely built for the future as the smaller VTF-1 would like be plenty for the small condo (and cause less fuss with the neighbors, if there are people below the OP, especially).

-beebs

I'd recommend you stay away from the Onkyo 606 failure model.

Entry level receivers that decode TrueHD and DTS-HD MA are....

Denon 2808 and Denon 988 which are same receiver with a different remote. They are 2007 models thought to have better build quality than the Denon 1909. The downside is they only have 2 HDMI inputs. $1200 MSRP can be had for $540-$700 on Amazon

Denon 1909 is the 2008 model with 4 HDMI inputs and also has new Audyssey Dynamic Volume automatic volume-leveling system. $650 MSRP can be had for about $600.

All of the above Denon models have Audyssey for auto setup. The 988 and 2808 have XT which I think is better than what the 1909 has but the 1909 has the Audyssey auto volume leveling......

Yamaha RX-V663 is another one to consider for under $500.

Pioneer VSX-1018 also can be had for under $500.

Onkyo has more limited bands of EQ calibration. There also are a lot of complaints about Onkyo's running hot and about buzzing noises, especially if used with a PS3. Onkyo gets mentioned a lot just because they look cheap on paper for the features list at first glance.

I've heard of the overheating issues on the Onkyo 805. My 705, on the other hand, works like a charm. And I get none of the "buzzing" problems others have complained about.

As for Audyssey, I think it's great for setting the levels of the speakers but I'm not fond of the EQ. I just find it too bright for my tastes. It also practically kills the bass response from my sub. The only way around that is to do three measurements (the bare minimum allowed) on my main seating position (ignoring any others). This keeps my sub alive (although a touch too alive) but still brightens the audio. I think that makes the audio (particularly in the dialgue) rather unpleasant (though never painfully so). The end result of the Audyssey EQ is rather forced and unnatural. However, it does an excellent job regarding individual speaker balance.