Can someone explain Sony's POV?
#1
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: MiddleOfNowhere, CT
Posts: 155
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Can someone explain Sony's POV?
Hoping to just understand something without starting a HD-BD fight...
Sony paid Fox and WB a few hundred million to be Blu-exclusive. I get this from the studio's POV - seems doubtful Fox would make 120 million profit in the next few months from selling HD discs. Correct me if that's wrong, though. Just how much does a studio make per disc selling HDM?
But what is Sony's gain?
At the end of the day, how do they make a profit from spending 620 million or so to get those 2 studios to be exclusive? How do they earn back that 620 million and then more?
Sony paid Fox and WB a few hundred million to be Blu-exclusive. I get this from the studio's POV - seems doubtful Fox would make 120 million profit in the next few months from selling HD discs. Correct me if that's wrong, though. Just how much does a studio make per disc selling HDM?
But what is Sony's gain?
At the end of the day, how do they make a profit from spending 620 million or so to get those 2 studios to be exclusive? How do they earn back that 620 million and then more?
#3
DVD Talk Hero
Originally Posted by Spaceknight
Hoping to just understand something without starting a HD-BD fight...
Sony paid Fox and WB a few hundred million to be Blu-exclusive. I get this from the studio's POV - seems doubtful Fox would make 120 million profit in the next few months from selling HD discs. Correct me if that's wrong, though. Just how much does a studio make per disc selling HDM?
But what is Sony's gain?
At the end of the day, how do they make a profit from spending 620 million or so to get those 2 studios to be exclusive? How do they earn back that 620 million and then more?
Sony paid Fox and WB a few hundred million to be Blu-exclusive. I get this from the studio's POV - seems doubtful Fox would make 120 million profit in the next few months from selling HD discs. Correct me if that's wrong, though. Just how much does a studio make per disc selling HDM?
But what is Sony's gain?
At the end of the day, how do they make a profit from spending 620 million or so to get those 2 studios to be exclusive? How do they earn back that 620 million and then more?
2) Sony owns Blu-ray. Every unit sold will get them money, every movie sold will get them money. So while having these companies exclusive right now won't make them money, winning the war would make them an absolute fortune. As you can imagine, when and if it takes over for DVD, you'd have 1) profit from people buying players, 2) profit from people buying media, etc;
It's pretty obvious really. You're a little short sighted in your question is all.
#4
Sony might actually want to sell more PS3's...
#5
MaxPower, who is a BD insider at blu-ray.com, said with 100% confidence, that there was no chance in hell Fox was even considering going HD DVD only. Some here will probably not believe that, but I'll take his word.
Also, Sony does not = BD. Matsushita (Panasonic) has as much, if not more, patents to BD as Sony does. The BDA is more than 2 companies.
Also, Sony does not = BD. Matsushita (Panasonic) has as much, if not more, patents to BD as Sony does. The BDA is more than 2 companies.
#6
DVD Talk Legend
Sony does get a bigger piece of the pie though. With DVD Sony and Phillips came out on the short end of the patents and both wanted to have the winning format this time.
Royalties is what this is all about and Sony has risked a lot on winning this war. The BDA is more than Sony, but Sony is the company that has risked a huge video game empire on winning this HD disc war.
Royalties is what this is all about and Sony has risked a lot on winning this war. The BDA is more than Sony, but Sony is the company that has risked a huge video game empire on winning this HD disc war.
#7
DVD Talk Gold Edition
Look at DVD Licensing and Fees to see the motivation here.
There are licenses to make a drive. There's a fee just to put the DVD logo on a device.
Then there's the actual hardware you need to make a player -- drive, decoder, video chipsets, etc. If you are the patent holder, you will likely sell lots of HW to other manufacturers as well.
Best guess is today to make a DVD player for someone who isn't part of the DVD license group is something like $20/player.
And then there is media license fees. Every movie sold pays a small fee back to the license holder. Every DVD-X and DVD+X all pay a small fee back to the license holder. Think $0.25 at first, now down to $0.04-.05. From what I undestand, Blu-ray additionally stands to many money on the manufacturing process on top of any fees.
It's not all going to go to Sony (blu-ray) or Toshiba (HD-DVD), but they know how much they stand to make. Toshiba acts as the agent to collect and protect the DVD license fees for all the license holders there. They, surely, know what it is worth and have been spending accordingly.
I am sure both sides believe there is a potential here for a decade of $100 million+ fees a year. Besides, of course, the money to be made by selling hw and sw yourself.
-beebs
There are licenses to make a drive. There's a fee just to put the DVD logo on a device.
Then there's the actual hardware you need to make a player -- drive, decoder, video chipsets, etc. If you are the patent holder, you will likely sell lots of HW to other manufacturers as well.
Best guess is today to make a DVD player for someone who isn't part of the DVD license group is something like $20/player.
And then there is media license fees. Every movie sold pays a small fee back to the license holder. Every DVD-X and DVD+X all pay a small fee back to the license holder. Think $0.25 at first, now down to $0.04-.05. From what I undestand, Blu-ray additionally stands to many money on the manufacturing process on top of any fees.
It's not all going to go to Sony (blu-ray) or Toshiba (HD-DVD), but they know how much they stand to make. Toshiba acts as the agent to collect and protect the DVD license fees for all the license holders there. They, surely, know what it is worth and have been spending accordingly.
I am sure both sides believe there is a potential here for a decade of $100 million+ fees a year. Besides, of course, the money to be made by selling hw and sw yourself.
-beebs
#8
DVD Talk Reviewer/ Admin
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Greenville, South Cackalack
Posts: 28,819
Received 1,881 Likes
on
1,238 Posts
Originally Posted by Spaceknight
But what is Sony's gain?
#9
DVD Talk Ultimate Edition
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 4,389
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Adam Tyner
I'd bet that most, if not every cent, of that however many millions of dollars came in the form of incentives -- marketing, subsidizing authoring and replication...that sort of thing. I doubt an actual check was written.
#10
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: MiddleOfNowhere, CT
Posts: 155
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
but then... long term, isn't WB just going to end up paying back most (if not all) of that 500 million to Sony?
I wonder how much Sony would have made in licensing without trying to affect HD, kind of how they make money on PS3 software without trying to block the XBox thru exclusive contracts. Will they really come out ahead with the different tactic? Because if you're talking a billion in revenue long-term, but they already paid out 600 million or more today, is that really going to work for them?
I wonder how much Sony would have made in licensing without trying to affect HD, kind of how they make money on PS3 software without trying to block the XBox thru exclusive contracts. Will they really come out ahead with the different tactic? Because if you're talking a billion in revenue long-term, but they already paid out 600 million or more today, is that really going to work for them?
#11
Suspended
Originally Posted by Mr. Cinema
MaxPower, who is a BD insider at blu-ray.com, said with 100% confidence, that there was no chance in hell Fox was even considering going HD DVD only. Some here will probably not believe that, but I'll take his word.
Regardless, studios know in the next 1-3 years Blu-ray/HD DVD will not make that much money for them, DVD will. Getting a payoff is a great way of getting extra money from something that will not simply not make them that much money, if any. I doubt Fox is making oodles of money from selling 10k copies (if even that) of Castaway, the same with Paramount and Blades of Glory. Thats why I don't see Paramount "throwing in the towel' on HD DVD. Why would they give back $150 million in "incentives" when there is no way in hell they would even make a fraction of that if they went neutral/Blu again?
#12
Suspended
Originally Posted by Spaceknight
but then... long term, isn't WB just going to end up paying back most (if not all) of that 500 million to Sony?
If Sony paid Warner Bros $500 million right now to make UMDs again, do you think they would turn it down? Hell no!
#13
DVD Talk Reviewer
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Blu-ray.com
Posts: 10,380
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Mr. Cinema
MaxPower, who is a BD insider at blu-ray.com, said with 100% confidence, that there was no chance in hell Fox was even considering going HD DVD only. Some here will probably not believe that, but I'll take his word.
Also, Sony does not = BD. Matsushita (Panasonic) has as much, if not more, patents to BD as Sony does. The BDA is more than 2 companies.
Also, Sony does not = BD. Matsushita (Panasonic) has as much, if not more, patents to BD as Sony does. The BDA is more than 2 companies.
Other than that SONY will be collecting royalties. Not as large percentage of them as Matsushita/Panasonic but a significant chunk if BR becomes the mass format. The success of the PS3 amongst BR enthusiasts also has a positive effect for their gaming branch.
Pro-B
#14
DVD Talk Legend
Originally Posted by GizmoDVD
Thats why I don't see Paramount "throwing in the towel' on HD DVD. Why would they give back $150 million in "incentives" when there is no way in hell they would even make a fraction of that if they went neutral/Blu again?
Well Sony/Blu-Ray Disc Association can counteroffer with "incentives" to Paramount. It might get a bit sticky legally (tortious intereference with contractual relations?). But the BDA can make it worthwhile to swicth if indeed Paramount can (may have to wait until June on that one).
#15
DVD Talk Hero
Originally Posted by Adam Tyner
I'd bet that most, if not every cent, of that however many millions of dollars came in the form of incentives -- marketing, subsidizing authoring and replication...that sort of thing. I doubt an actual check was written.
#17
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: MiddleOfNowhere, CT
Posts: 155
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by GizmoDVD
Sorry, don't believe it, especially from someone who works for the BDA and takes a paycheck home from them. Wasn't he at first denying Fox was even talking to the HD DVD camp?
#18
DVD Talk Legend
It's all about getting a proprietary format, and Sony's obsession with having a successful one.
Sony failed with Betamax. They failed with ATRAC. They failed with SACD. They failed with UMD. They failed (pretty much) with memory sticks. They almost screwed things up with Blu-ray, but fortunately they got their act together and it looks like this IS going to be the next-generation format.
As previous posters have noted, Sony will get royalties for every Blu-ray sold and pretty much have their say as far as far as the format's standards and licenses go.
Sony failed with Betamax. They failed with ATRAC. They failed with SACD. They failed with UMD. They failed (pretty much) with memory sticks. They almost screwed things up with Blu-ray, but fortunately they got their act together and it looks like this IS going to be the next-generation format.
As previous posters have noted, Sony will get royalties for every Blu-ray sold and pretty much have their say as far as far as the format's standards and licenses go.
#19
DVD Talk Legend
Originally Posted by Drexl
Yeah, I don't think Fox was considering HD DVD either. BD+ is like crack to them.
#21
DVD Talk Limited Edition
Originally Posted by Shannon Nutt
It's all about getting a proprietary format, and Sony's obsession with having a successful one.
#22
DVD Talk Limited Edition
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: A far green country
Posts: 5,960
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Shannon Nutt
It's all about getting a proprietary format, and Sony's obsession with having a successful one.
As previous posters have noted, Sony will get royalties for every Blu-ray sold and pretty much have their say as far as far as the format's standards and licenses go.
As previous posters have noted, Sony will get royalties for every Blu-ray sold and pretty much have their say as far as far as the format's standards and licenses go.
If anything, HD DVD is more proprietary than Blu-ray, given Toshiba's mostly single-handed control and driving of that format.
#24
DVD Talk Legend
Originally Posted by Peep
I don't think proprietary means what you think it does. Or at the least, you misued it by labeling Blu-ray such.
I also slightly disagree with the idea that Sony isn't the major player in the format, regardless of how the patents/investments break down. All those companies in the Blu-ray Association are in bed together anyway, so it's kind of a moot argument.
The fact that Sony owns the trademarks on both Blu-ray and Blu-ray Disc tells you who's really in charge here.