HD audio receivers
 

As everyone probably knows both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray in the spec include standards for high definition audio. These two new formats include DobyTrueHD and DTS-HD. Both are suppose to offer even better quality then DVD-A and SA-CD (up to three times as good according to the bits). This is to amazing. If you have ever heard a DVD-A or SA-CD disc you know that the sound is several levels above anything on DVD movies. However there is a problem. Currently there are no recievers capable of reading these discs and even if there were all current HD-DVD players can't output this. Does anyone know exactly when the first HD sound recievers will come out and at what price?

The current HD-DVD players are currently capable of decoding Dolby Digital Plus internally themselves, so you don't need decoding in the receiver. All you need is a receiver with an HDMI or 5.1 analog inputs.

The players will also decode Dolby TrueHD, but only up to 2 channels.

There are no surround receivers with any of these decoders built in because the HDMI 1.3 specification has not been finalized yet and you can't transmit the raw bitstreams of any of these formats without it. HDMI 1.3 is expected to be finalized later this year. Maybe.

The first Blu-Ray players will have neither HDMI 1.3 nor any internal decoders for these audio formats. They will not be compatible with any of these audio formats at all.

Yes but it only outputs doby plus as standard DTS if your reciever doesn't have any doby-plus capability. It only outputs Doby TrueHD has 2 channel LPCM not as Doby TrueHD if you don't have reciever capable of it. Therefore its important to upgrade your sound reciever to get the most out of these new formats.

Both Pioener and Sony say there Blu-Ray players will be able to read DTS-HD and Doby TrueHD. Not sure about Samsung but it will definutly read Dolby plus.

Upgrade to what? No current receiver will decode either. And you would also need HDMI 1.3 to get the signal to the receiver in the first place. Again, maybe later (end of?) this year and that will be a reality.

As JoshZ said, you are pretty much stuck with multichannel outputs if you want the new audio formats. But that is really not all that terrible.

I know no current reciever can decode them but according to the bits recievers capable of decoding them will be out before years end. I am wonder exactly when and what price they will sell for. Sonys releases will use LPCM 5.1. I am guessing that will sound better then dolby plus but inferior to TrueHD. I am also curious at what audio the first Blu-Ray players can output. Pioneer apparently confirmed DTS-HD but said nothing about TrueHD. Only Sony confirmed both both TrueHD and DTS-HD for its player. Samsung at the very least will output dolby plus and LPCM.

Will the Bluray players have the ability to decode the new Audio formats? I know the Tosiba A-1 can decode DD+, but I'm not sure about Bluray.

No, it actually can decode the Dolby Plus as well and output in over the 5.1 analog output. What you are getting to your receiver is the full DD+ sound. If you use the optical or coax connection the bandwith is too limited for this stream so the player reencodes to full stream DTS, but you are losing some of the DD+ sound this way.

Upgrading to a new receiver will only be important to get the new DTS-HD and DolbyTrueHD sound, but this will require a brand new player as well. The same will be true of Blu-ray since they are not shipping with HDMI 1.3 outputs either.

If DTS-HD and TrueHD are a must for you I would recommend waiting for the HDMI 1.3 receivers to hit the market and a second generation player that has HDMI 1.3 as well. I asked about a time table for this recently and all I've heard from retailers is maybe by the end of the year.

I'm really beginning to question whether either of the HD sound formats is going to matter to me anyway. If would be a huge cost increase to buy a new receiver and better speakers, not to mention adding more speakers to my already limited living room space. DD+ works well with my current set up and may be the format I stick with. DTS-HD and True HD are really going to shine for the people with high end home entertainment set ups. People with my budget probably won't be able to afford to get the real benefit from it.

Not the first ones, no. Initial Blu-Ray players will not have internal decoders for any of the new audio formats. On a few select titles (such as The Fifth Element), Sony plans to include uncompressed LPCM soundtracks, which will sound good but take up many multiple times the amount of disc space. Considering that the first Blu-Ray discs will be single layer and compressed with MPEG2, full LPCM audio will probably eat into the picture quality.

The HD-A1 will output full Dolby Digital Plus through either the HDMI or 5.1 analog outputs. It converts the signal to multi-channel PCM, which is uncompressed and has no loss in quality.

Note that since it's the player converting the audio to PCM, this doesn't affect the amount of disc space needed.

Being able to "read" the audio doesn't mean it will decode or output them. The players will read the DD+ or Dolby TrueHD signal and extract the "Dolby Core" (standard DD 5.1) from it. Likewise with DTS-HD.

What a silly statement. So the player can read the audio, but it won't do anything with it? Come on! True, it won't decoded the audio, but it still can send the bitstream to the receiver over HDMI for the receiver to decode.

And HDMI v1.3 is supposed to be finalized this summer.

Blu-ray players are not shipping with HDMI 1.3 so how will they send the HD bitstream? Everything I have read says the first generation of Blu-rays are only going to be able to read and extract the 5.1 core. Giving you basically the same sound as standard DVDs. Only discs with the uncompressed LPCM will give you any advanced sound which gives HD DVD the advantage for the first generation in this area.

Yes, it will extract the core at the higher bitrate, and send that stream across HDMI. You still have the advantage of a higher bitrate than standard DVD.

You're spinning desperately here. I explained in my post that the Blu-Ray players will read the tracks but only extract the DD or DTS "Core" signal, which you choice to snip out of your response. Now that some else has reiterated it, you're trying to pretend that the "Core" signal is just as good as real TrueHD or DTS-HD, which of course it isn't.

HD-DVD players will also extract the "DTS Core" signal from DTS-HD, and will actually decode Dolby TrueHD in full lossless quality, albeit only in 2 channels at current.

Both formats have their kinks to be worked out.

The Core it exacts will be at a higher bit rate than used on DVD. That is an advantage of these new formats. I never said it would be as good at TrueHD or DTS-HD, but it will be better than DD5.1 or DTS which currently exists on DVD.

It will not be superior to DD+ though and that is the one minor advantage for HD DVD. I don't think its much more important than 1080p at this point, but it is worth noting.

I just read on another forum that the Panny BD player is supposed to have HDMI 1.3
and this retailer is listing it as a "tentative" feature as well.

http://www.avland.co.uk/panasonic/dmpbd10/dmp-bd10.htm

Okay, I'll admit I haven't been keeping up very well, and I'm not a big technophile. But this sound thing does concern me a bit.
From the DVDtalk.com review of the Toshiba HD-A1 player:
"HD-DVD offers three brand new audio formats for improved clarity and fidelity in movie soundtracks: Dolby Digital Plus, Dolby TrueHD, and DTS-HD."
From the Serenity HDDVD review:
"The audio is encoded in Dolby Digital Plus 5.1 format"

But there's currently no player that outputs Dolby True or DTSHD, and no available receivers that can process them?
My reciever can do these: "Dolby Digital EX and Dolby Pro Logic IIx, DTS, DTS-ES Matrix/Discrete, DTS Neo:6, and DTS 96/24 processing". It does have the 6 multichannel input things though.

Ideally to get the full benefit of these new disks, we'd need to:
* wait for a player that can output/process all of them (Dolby Digital Plus, Dolby TrueHD, and DTS-HD)
* buy a receiver that can process them?
and neither of those things have been released yet?

I understand the concerns, BUT it is good to know that these discs are set up for the future. Not all the hardware is here yet, but it looks like (at least as of now) we will not have to buy another version of the discs.

Its personal choice as to wait for the hardware or go with the trimmed down versions that are more readily available.

Thats a big problem many have. They aquadate Blu-Ray with Sony. Sony is just one of many Blu-Ray supporting studios. Just because Sony uses MPEG-2 doesn't mean the Blu-Ray format will.

5.1 LPCM audio will probably sound superior to Dolby plus that will mean Sonys Blu-Rays will sound superior to most HD-DVDs at the moment.

This is based on?

Just a prediction.

I love SACD, but from what I am reading DDplus will support 7.1 sound through the HDMI and a 3Mbps data rate. Plus DDplus is on every disc. There is no guarantee that every Blu-ray release will have LPCM.

Wow, this is becoming more and mroe confusing....I don't even have a HDMI input on my receiver, no need for it.

So, if you use the OPTICAL output, will it sound less than impressive with HD-DVD? I know I can do 6 channel analog, but that is annoying.

Do you have a non-speculatory link? I've read everything from finished this summer to it'll be the end of this year. And everything from needing new hardware to there is potential it will be firmware upgrade.

All this information is speculation from outsiders. HDMI themselves have said very little that I could find. If you have any link to something the HDMI group announced, I'd love to read it.

DD+ is still compressed. It can't compete with SACD. That's just silly. Uncompressed PCM should certainly sound better than DD+. (as always, assuming the guy who mixed everything did a good job) And Dolby TrueHD is not better than DVD-Audio/SACD, either. Except for the additional channel capability. Same 24/96 potential.

According to the bits DTS-HD and Dolby TrueHD can sound as much as three time as good as DVD-A nad SA-CD. My only question for Sony is how the hell they are going to fit two hour movies on 25 gigs with MPEG-2 1080p and 5.1 LPCM. Why not just use a damn advanced codec.

Nope. All speculation.

Looks like both formats will have their things to workout this first generation. Granted once the 50GB discs are easy to replicate (I read in one article they currently have a 75% failure rate) 5.1 LPCM and the HD formats will not be an issue, but down the road if you have a first generation player and they switch to DD and DTS HD instead of LPCM you will be out of luck for advanced sound and stuck with basically better bit rate DVD sound.

There are prices to pay on both sides for being an early adopter. As much as I like the surround sound SACD delivers I have been impressed enough with DD+ to at least be satisfied with it as an alternative with HD DVD and it sucks that Blu-ray isn't offering a mid range codec like that for people that don't need the high end option of HD sound.

75%? That doesn't bode very well. I hope 50GB BDs don't become the next DVD-18. I can just see it now, with dedicated "Universal BD-50 defective disc" threads popping up all over the place. ;)

True, but since most first generation players will be purchased by early adopters, and since most early adopters upgrade as soon as better players are available, I don't think this will be too much of an issue for most of us.

An American company is trying to solve this issue. If so we may get discs made for blu-ray in the US which would be a good thing.

http://www.prweb.com/releases/2006/4/prweb377427.htm
This is true and I will be one to upgrade in a year or two.

i before e except after c ... :D

Duly noted! Subject line changed.

When DVD launched all the first releases were single layer only. The first dual layer releases came out in fall and the it didn't become commen until fall 1998. History is repeting itself with dual layer Blu-Ray. They are having trouble at first but eventually BD-50 will become the standard.

I am very familiar with the history of DVD, and the introduction of dual layer discs (and some of the initial discs were dual layer, BTW, just not RSDL). What I was referring to was the similarity between the initial problems BD-50 seems to be experiencing and the problems that were experienced when DVD-18 was introduced. Because of the way BDs need to be manufactured, there are far more physical similarities between DVD-18 and BD-50 than between DVD-9 and BD-50.

Yes, the problems with DVD-9 have, for the most part, been eliminated. Unfortunately, the same cannot be said for DVD-18. Although the massively high failure rates have been dramatically reduced, they have not been eliminated, as evidenced by the monumental QC problems Universal is having with their DVD-18 discs. My fear is that BD-50 will suffer the same, or similar fate. Perhaps the company darkside mentioned will help overcome the problems, but there is still reason to be... concerned at this point.

I certainly don't want to have every BD-50 purchase I make be a crap shoot, not knowing whether or not I got a good disc until I try to play it.

I agree, but it still is a worry if they and HD DVD try to push triple layers or dual sided dual layered discs. DVD-18 even today is still a very iffy format that most of us dread. I have no doubt they will get the BD-50 thing worked out soon though and I hope the American company can be the one to do it. For HD DVD I hope they just go with 2 discs if they need more than 30GBs and avoid dual sided discs or triple layered discs.

Well DVD-18s problem was that people just hate flippers. I agree. No disc art and having to scwint my eyes to see which side is right they suck. DVD-18s are rare because two DVD-9s are just more consumer friendly nothing to do with BD-50s which problematic purely due to manufactoring issues not consumer issues. BD-50s will probably be ready a good year before Toshiba can make triple layer HD-DVD so I am not worried about them.

Universal's DVD-18s -- as mentioned elsewhere in this thread -- are notoriously unplayable. Yes, there are manufacturing issues with DVD-18s. Maybe not from every replicator everywhere, but there are inarguably problems.

What bits?

I think that's his nickname for The Digital Bits.

I'm more interested in actual bits.

DVD-Audio: 24bit, 96KHz standard. Both 24/192 and 24/48 are also used.
Dolby TrueHD: 24bit, 96KHz.

Neither are ever compressed. There are other combinations in the specs, but they are not used much.