1. Now we know why Universal is so quiet. Toshiba is footing some of their bills for the Kong release.

2. This is an interesting qoute from an "anonymous" Toshiba spokesman! He appears to be talking down why anyone would buy a BR player for 1K while the PS3, which plays games as well, will be available for at least half of that. Considering Toshiba will only be offering a 1K player at launch this statement says a lot for Toshiba's current situation!

Sony themselves, the kings of overpricing, have stated officially that the PS3 will be "very expensive", even by their own inflated standards.

Let's re-address your assertion about its pricing once Sony actually makes public the MSRP.

Well, $500 is pretty over-priced for a home console in the U.S. market as it is. But even if streets at $600-700, it still beats a $1000 stand-alone hands-down. On top of that, if you amortize say, $150, the cost of a PS2, as the true cost of the gaming functions, that leaves

Josh, read the article, the supposed anonymous exec said it would be half of that. I have no idea what the PS3 will sell for. I would guess around 400-500 though. Who knows!

I'd be shocked if the PS3 was more than $399. If it launches at more than the X-box 360 it's doomed, and I don't think Sony is that stupid.

It wouldn't surprise me if Sony encounters the same pricing challenges as Microsoft and ends up with some sort of entry model sans Blu-Ray, hard drive, etc. and either offer a more expensive package, or upgrades to Blu-Ray and hard drive (if the system is modular)

And if Sony can effectively kill off HD-DVD by the time the PS3 is released, then they have a bit of breathing room to make Blu-Ray an option on the PS3.... or delay the release of the PS3.

When was the last time that a Sony product was cheaper than its direct competitor?

Let's think this through logically for a second. Samsung, a company known for its cut-rate prices, has announced the MSRP of their first Blu-Ray player will be $1400. Yes, $1400. If the PS3 is supposed to be a fully functioning Blu-Ray player in addition to its gaming capabilities and will retail for as low as $399, who in their right mind would ever buy a regular Blu-Ray player that has half the functionality for more than 3 times the price? Why would Samsung choose to join the Blu-Ray camp if they knew that their partner Sony was going to effectively slaughter them at retail? What's in it for them?

Realistically, one of three things are going to have to happen here. Either: 1) the PS3 is going to have to cost a lot more than most people are assuming, 2) it will not be a fully functioning Blu-Ray player out of the box (perhaps it will require an expensive add-on kit to play Blu-Ray movies), or 3) or it's going to be the worst Blu-Ray player known to man, with terrible quality and none of the convenience features and playback options found on dedicated Blu-Ray players. You know, sort of like the PS2 is for DVDs.

Ahmen to all especially the 3rd point. PS2's dvd playback was ass. There was a significant difference between quality between the ps2 and a stand alone dvd player (toshiba in my case). I also remember reading in some other forums that playing an average amount dvds with the ps2 (using it as if its your only dvd player) is bad for it and was a major cause for the lasers burning out which was a big reason for the classic "disc read error". Lets hope that they make it so its a game system and a stable blue ray player. Not a unstable 2nd blue ray player....

Not cheaper, but at least the same price. Unless they're stupid.

The rest of your points are good ones. I don't expect the PS3 to have a huge impact on the format wars. But it can't hurt anything to get players (even if they are crappy ones) into millions of homes when Blu Ray is already the odds on favorite and looks to have the "war" won before it begins.

the head song playstation guy has already stated numerous times that the ps3 will be expensive and yoy have to save up for it. it'll be 499 to 599. the ps3 blu-ray playback will suck compared standalone just like ps2 to regular dvd players.

as for hd-dvd it won't even make it to the market. it's completely defeated and has been for a long time. the few companies claiming to support hd-dvd already know this too and have other reasons for pretending to support hd-dvd. mainly to use it as a leverage.

Allright, I'll rephase. When was the last time a Sony product wasn't more expensive than its direct competition?

Sony always overcharges for their products. They believe themselves to be the greatest electronics company on earth and that we foolish consumers should be grateful to hand our money over to them no matter the price.

Didn't the PS2 launch at $199, which was the same as the Dreamcast which came out right before it?

No, it was $299 (same as the Xbox when it came out a year later). But the PSone was $100 cheaper than the Saturn so it sort of balances out.

I can't shake the feeling that Sony won't include Blu-Ray playback on the initial release of the PS3. There's a lot of FUD being thrown around, and I have to wonder why there are no announced plans for a North America release of standalone Blu-Ray players and media for the holiday season. (at least none that I heard of, in contrast to HD-DVD announcements of player availability 4Q2005...which of course have been scrapped.)

If the hype is to be believed, and Blu-Ray is the winner, where are the players?

An addendum from Video Business:

Warner joins Blu-ray camp
Still also backs HD DVD
By Scott Hettrick and Paul Sweeting 10/21/2005
OCT. 21 | Minutes after a decision ensuring a continued battle over high-definition formats, Warner Home Video president Jim Cardwell acknowledged, “The cost of a format war will likely be significant.”

Cardwell announced Thursday that Warner will release movies in the Blu-ray Disc format, the rival of competing platform HD DVD. Warner has been, and remains, the biggest studio proponent of the HD DVD platform.

Warner execs feel they did all they could to avert a format war by working to unify the two camps before it ultimately opted to join the board of the Blu-ray Disc Assn. and release all its programming, as well as that of distributed labels New Line Home Entertainment and HBO Video on Blu-ray as well as HD DVD next year.


“We made a decision to support HD DVD. We tried to bring the two sides together,” said Marsha King, executive VP new business development. “We were unable to do so.”

When it became clear that Blu-ray was launching at the very least as a component of PlayStation 3 regardless of the plans or support for HD DVD, Warner execs decided they wanted to have input into Blu-ray.

They got that through a couple of important concessions from Blu-ray. The format will now include a low-cost red-laser option that will allow studios to create a Blu-ray version of the DVD-9, a “BD9.” Cardwell said that since the costs of manufacturing blue-laser-based Blu-ray discs “are unknown to us,” Warner wanted to ensure there was some level of expenses the studio could more accurately project.

The option is essentially the same one Warner proposed to both the Blu-ray and HD DVD camps more than three years ago, but which Blu-ray previously rejected.

The studio plans to use the red-laser option for shorter programs that don’t require all the storage capacity of a blue-laser disc or for budget-priced titles that might not justify the higher costs.

Warner also received assurancesthat Blu-ray’s additional layers of copy protection would not compromise the basic AACS copy-protection standard that the studio plans to use.

“This gives us more options,” said Sony Pictures Home Entertainment president Ben Feingold of the concessions. “And options are good.”

King said Warner would still love to see unification of the formats, but Cardwell was firm in the studio’s resolve to release product also for Toshiba’s HD DVD format. Toshiba, which has been aware of Warner’s impending decision for more than a month, is planning to go forward with its launch.

Cardwell denied industry speculation that Warner and Paramount Home Entertainment, the latter of which announced earlier this month that the studio would also publish in both formats, are simply keeping a foot in the HD DVD camp in case Sony cannot deliver on its promises. One studio exec said that engineers re-evaluated the Blu-ray technology as recently as this week and concluded that it will not be ready to offer everything Sony promises for two more years.

“We’re committed to HD DVD,” Cardwell said.

King said Warner has not decided that one format is better than the other.

“We feel the market will decide. Both will be incredibly good products.”

Said one studio exec when he heard the news, “The studios have decided to allow consumers to decide, and that’s a shame.”

Feingold said it makes no sense to release two incompatible platforms and estimates such a scenario could slow overall sales by 60% as the situation confuses consumers and retailers.

Suppliers must pick one format, he said: “This is not dating. There are real issues at retail in terms of shelf space.” He also said consumers are far less likely to buy either of two formats for fear that the one they pick could become obsolete.

Many still believe that only one product will come to market, and that Blu-ray clearly has the stronger position.

“This is something the HD [DVD] camp cannot recover from,” said one executive close to the negotiations.

Toshiba isn’t backing down yet, however. Last week, the company said it had begun licensing Chinese manufacturers to begin producing HD DVD players for the export market.

The move seemed designed to ensure that relatively inexpensive players would be available in volume at the time of the format’s launch as part of a strategy to put price pressure on the Blu-ray camp.

Blu-ray players are expected to be more expensive than HD DVD players because the Sony format incorporates more new technologies.

“We recognize Warner Bros.’ participation in the Blu-ray Disc Assn. represents the studio’s understandable commitment to listen to broad array of opinions and to continue to make technical evaluations of each format, and we are more than confident this will not affect timely introduction of HD DVD content to the market,” Toshiba said in a statement. “Toshiba strongly believes the HD DVD format will eventually win broad support as the more superior format, and in cooperation with our partners, we are committed to bringing HD DVD products first to market early next year in the U.S.”

Top brass at Blu-ray soloists Buena Vista Home Entertainment and 20th Century Fox Home Entertainment issued statements saying Warner’s decision will lead to a single standard.

“The continued dramatic momentum toward Blu-ray makes us more optimistic than ever that a format war can be avoided,” said Buena Vista Home Entertainment president Bob Chapek.

“These latest developments are the categorical shift needed to avoid a format war and ensure the successful launch of Blu-ray and secure the future of high-definition pre-recorded media,” said 20th Century Fox Home Entertainment president Mike Dunn.

Ironically, Warner’s decision came on the same day that Blu-ray board member Hewlett-Packard tried to bring the two formats closer together by announcing it would ask the Blu-ray Assn. to consider adding two key HD DVD technologies to the Blu-ray format, a mandatory “managed copy” system and “iHD,” both enthusiastically supported by Warner. Managed copy allows consumers to make legitimate copies of their high-def movies and play them anywhere around the world.

iHD, an interactive layer developed by Microsoft and Disney, enables new interactivity with standards-based development tools and technologies.

Sources said it is highly unlikely that Blu-ray will agree to H-P’s requests and that H-P knew that in advance but wanted to make a gesture to appease Microsoft.

H-P said that if its proposal is rejected, the computer maker “may have to seek alternatives” to Blu-ray.

Here comes Samsung's dual-format players......

Paul Sweeting's (Video Business columnist) Opinions on the Warner Announcement:

Making a Franken-DVD


OCT. 21 | With last week’s high-definition maneuverings by Warner Home Video and Hewlett-Packard, the rough contours of the much-hoped-for compromise between Blu-ray Disc and HD DVD are becoming clearer.

Interests in both camps seem to be converging on a plan to adopt the Blu-ray physical spec, combined with the logic and application layers from HD DVD.

That is, a Blu-ray Disc with an iHD interactive layer instead of the more complicated BD-Java platform, and guaranteed managed copy regardless of any additional layers of copy-protection added to the basic Advanced Access Content System.

Blu-ray Disc Assn. board member H-P—perhaps under pressure from HD DVD supporter Microsoft—proposed exactly that in formally asking the group to drop BD-Java in favor of iHD and commit to mandatory managed copy.

Warner’s price for endorsing Blu-ray was not immediately disclosed, but the studio certainly would endorse H-P’s proposal, given its long support for managed copy and the cost savings the studios would enjoy from using iHD compared to BD-Java. Warner’s other demands likely focused on incorporating some of the studio’s old DVD patents into a proposed hybrid DVD/Blu-ray Disc that could carry both a standard-def and high-def movie versions.

If such a chimera were to emerge, it would represent an ironic reversal of fortunes from the first DVD format battle. Back then, the eventual “compromise” involved adopting the Toshiba/Warner physical spec, and the file format developed by Sony and Phillips for their Multimedia CD standard.

From Sony and Phillips’ point of view, that compromise turned out to be nothing of the sort. The real value in the DVD patent pool concerned the format’s physical spec, which was controlled by Toshiba and Warner, not in the logic layer developed by Sony.

In setting out to develop Blu-ray, Sony was determined never to let that happen again.

Whether the same sort of compromise can work this time, however, even with the shoes on the other feet, is far from clear.

For one thing, Blu-ray’s physical spec is at the heart of the uncertainty surrounding the format’s viability.

The new disc structure developed for Blu-ray requires a host of new mastering and manufacturing processes, none of which have ever been tested on a commercial scale.

If manufacturing Blu-ray discs turns out to be harder or more expensive than expected, adopting the Blu-ray physical spec could turn out to be a mistake.

The ability to implement managed copy in conjunction with the additional BD+ and BD ROM-Mark copy-protection layers also remains one of the major unanswered questions about the format.

According to Blu-ray critics like Microsoft chairman Bill Gates, mandatory managed copy can only be achieved if BD+ and BD ROM-Mark are taken out of the equation.

But that’s unlikely to sit well with 20th Century Fox, which only agreed to side with Blu-ray after Blu-ray agreed to incorporate those extra layers of copy protection.

Even if those issues could be worked out, reconfiguring Blu-ray to incorporate iHD and mandatory managed copy could also mean a significant delay in launching the format. That would create a potentially serious problem for Sony, which plans to incorporate Blu-ray technology into its PlayStation 3 game platform slated for release next year.

A delay to reengineer Blu-ray could mean pushing back the launch of PS3, perhaps handing a crucial advantage to Microsoft’s rival Xbox 360 system, which launches worldwide next month.

Blu-ray supporters hope that no compromise will be necessary and that the defections of Warner and Paramount will deliver the fatal blow to HD DVD so that Blu-ray can proceed without further ado. But of course that also was the plan for HD DVD when Warner, Paramount and Universal came out in support of the Toshiba format in January.

Don’t believe the hype. There’s plenty of high-def intrigue yet to come.

Just popped into my In box From Home Media Retailing:

Retail Singing About Blu
Author: ERIK GRUENWEDEL
[email protected]
Posted: October 27, 2005
Email this Story to Friend


The tide appears to be turning blue — as in Blu-ray Disc — now that Warner Home Video has become the fifth major studio to join the Blu-ray Disc Association.

And retailers — who have been vocal in the past about needing a single high-def format — are cautiously optimistic now that there seems to be a clear frontrunner.

“My assumption [with Blu-ray] is that the studios have done the due diligence to make sure they are coming to market with the best possible product for the next-generation DVD,” said Gary Arnold, SVP Entertainment at Best Buy. “What appears to be happening is a unification of sorts between the two formats instead of just causing turmoil with the consumer.”

Kevin Cassidy, EVP of retail stores at Tower Records and Video, said he’s glad a dominant player has emerged.

“The HD [DVD] camp is defensive, and the Blu-ray camp is confident,” he said. “They, at least, feel confident to address issues from tech, retail and the studios.”

Todd Zaganiacz, owner of Video Zone in South Deerfield, Mass., and head of the National Entertainment Buying Group, a consortium of 100 independent retailers, agreed Blu-ray is looking strong.

“Blu-ray is coming out of the gate with more support than HD [DVD] has at this point,” he noted. “I wouldn’t say that HD is dead yet, but it is certainly looking like HD might be a passenger on the Titanic.”

Enhanced interactivity is one of the driving forces behind the Blu-ray format, and some retailers worry Blu-ray would allow studios to directly market product through links and hidden Easter eggs to consumers without retail involvement.

“One of my concerns is that studios be able to develop relationships with the consumer without elbowing out the retailer,” Cassidy said.

He appreciated Blu-ray requesting retail input regarding that issue and others during sessions at the Video Software Dealers Association’s summer confab in Las Vegas.

“I think Blu-ray recognizes our concerns,” Cassidy said. “Or at least it feels like they do a lot better than HD DVD.”

Retailers have other concerns as well. Many say backward compatibility with DVD is important.

“It's all about dual format,” said George Lewis, president of Hollywood Express in Cambridge, Mass. “The existing DVD has to be somewhere on the new format. It doesn’t matter who does it, but it’s a must-have feature.”

Cassidy said it is imperative the new format be marketed to consumers as a premium — not commodity — product.

“It is important that there not be a race to the bottom regarding pricing as occurred with DVD,” he said. “We need a format the consumer can recognize as a value-add.”

Value-add or not, some retailers think high-def discs will be much harder to sell than was DVD when that format debuted.

Tom Hannah, owner of Video Quest in Joliet, Ill., noted new high-def discs will not have DVD’s price advantage over rental-priced VHS, he noted.

“Seeing how the DVD Audio discs failed to catch on might be a better indication of how the market will respond [to high-def discs],” Hannah warned.

Zaganiacz agreed high-def adoption will not be easy.

“The average consumer, happy with DVD, will not run right out and buy a high-def setup because someone says it’s better,”Zaganiacz said. “It’s not going to be as easy getting a DVD owner into high def as opposed to a VHS owner into DVD.”

Brian Hill, owner of independent Friendly Video, in Pace, Fla., said he doesn’t care which format prevails as long as it jumpstarts consumer excitement.

“I just wish something would regenerate some interest,” he said.

The three key things imho are the PS3, price, and backwards compatibility.

The PS3 will be the gateway player into many homes, assuming they can get it out without losing too much ground to the Xbox 360. If they can get the cost of Blu-Ray movies down to a reasonable price, than consumers will buy the better-quality version over the DVD because they have no reason not to.

With HD sets dropping in price and more and more cable companies offering high definition stations, people will start to see that the progamming they are watching off their set top boxes looks better than many of their DVDs. If the price of players drop as fast as DVD players did, I think people will come around faster than expected. It's not like switching from VHS, where they had to sacrifice their existing library, or convicing Joe Sixpack to buy big, unwieldy, hard-to-store laser discs that won't even fit through the return slot at the video store.

The transition this time can be a lot smoother, provided the studios don't fuck it up with outrageous DRM demands.

I can't see see people accepting Blu Ray or HD-DVD, just because the DVD was the most widely accepted and fastest growing format ever, just proves my point more. For those of us that bought a DVD player in the last 6 or 7 years and built up quite a selection of great films (especially those in DTS!), why would I want to abandon another format for something that sounds and looks incredible to me right now?
And don't get me started on the UMD, that is just plain laughable, who takes a step BACK in quality?

yeah that first part came out wrong, got giddy.... why would i want to ditch a format that sounds incredible for me? That is what I meant.... sure the new ones will be great, but I sure won't be able to truely appreciate it for another few year at least, if I even want to then.

As someone with over 400 discs, MANY in DTS, I can't agree with you. Anyone who had a laserdisc player knows how severely DVD is lacking in the sound department and I think I'm looking forward to the sound abilities of a future format even more than the picture improvement (and yes, I own an HDTV). I will have no problems dumping my DVD's for the HD version in a heartbeat. I've already started thinking about my purchasing choices and how to get the most while saving for an HD format. BRING IT ON!

I don't know. i don't think people will abandon their old disks and players, but the new players must be backwards compatible or people will simply not be interested. HD DVD has a chance because the player will be cheaper and 90% of the buying population doesn't really know or care about teh new formats they are probably just shopping for a cheap dvd player.

Eventually all players will be Blu-ray so people won't have to worry about buying a player to play them. It will be there. And there's no question about it being backwards compatible.

What makes you think the HD-DVD player will be cheaper, Morrow?

That the HD-DVD discs are apparently currently slightly cheaper to produce doesn't change the cost of the player (and, for that matter, likely won't change the price end consumers pay for the discs. CDs were cheaper to produce than cassette tapes, but they still cost more in the store). That is, even assuming that HD-DVD makes it to market.

Of course, someone who is buying solely on price likely won't buy until the format issues are completely decided. Even if there was still going to be a format war, those people likely wouldn't contribute.